Big cars in Honolulu

[joshuatree]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

As usual, a fake but popular e-mail forward. The car was a Ford Escape SUV, not a Smart Car... and frankly, any car vs. trucks like that would come out badly. For the most part, modern cars are much, much safer than the giant steel tanks we think were invincible from the 60s and 70s.

There's also the law of diminishing returns. Increasing car size and weight provides added safety up to a certain meaningful point. As you pointed out, any car vs heavy equipment trucks, it doesn't really matter what car you drive.

Cars from the 60s and 70s may seem more "invincible" because they were not engineered to crumple to absorb the impact energy which translates to a surviving car but not necessarily a surviving occupant.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

I can agree to that so long as bigger cars that force themselves into compact spots can treated the same.

The reason why big cars squeeze themselves into compact stalls is because the larger stalls are taken by smaller cars. It gives those small cars more space between cars. Even compact cars in compact stalls get door dings.

Try going to Kaiser Moanalua. The top (street level) deck is reserved for larger vehicles but you'll see them full of compact cars, leaving no stalls for the larger vehicles, forcing them to park in the smaller stalls in the lower levels.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

As usual, a fake but popular e-mail forward. The car was a Ford Escape SUV, not a Smart Car... and frankly, any car vs. trucks like that would come out badly. For the most part, modern cars are much, much safer than the giant steel tanks we think were invincible from the 60s and 70s.

So if a Ford Escape got creamed that badly, a Smart car would be...worse. And yes I do believe today's cars are safer than cars of the past with engineered crumple zones.

Which brings me to what people do to their cars by modifying them with stress bars, anti-sway bars and other chassis stiffening products. They may improve handling but I've always wondered if all those modifications to the chassis adversely affects how the body of the newly reinforced chassis will crumple on impact.

[cabanalane]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

Which brings me to what people do to their cars by modifying them with stress bars, anti-sway bars and other chassis stiffening products. They may improve handling but I've always wondered if all those modifications to the chassis adversely affects how the body of the newly reinforced chassis will crumple on impact.

I would think the dynamics controlling movement (car performance) is different from crash worthiness. A person with muscles will hurt the same from a fall as as person with little muscles. Still hurts.

On the flip side, if you could perform better, better control, better braking, you can avoid accidents all together.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

I've always thought that compact cars parking in regular stalls instead of compact stalls should be towed out as they leave no space for larger vehicles.

Even if all the compact stalls are taken?

The idea behind the compact stalls is obviously to fit in more cars into the same space.

My personal feeling is that if most or all of the compact stalls on a lot are filled, then there's nothing wrong with a compact car using a regular sized stall. AFAIAC, anything that encourages motorists to use smaller vehicles on the road in the city is a good thing.

Besides, I can imagine the confusion and controversy that would arise over what cars should or should not be towed. Especially nowadays since there are not only compact cars, but cars that are classified as "sub-compact," which blurs the distinction between compact and mid-size. In many people's minds, the Chevy Cobalt sedan is mid-size, not compact, since it is quite longer than an Aveo.

I pity the poor parking attendant who has to explain to an irate customer about why his borderline compact/mid-size vehicle had to be towed. It would make for very bad P.R. It's one of those rules that would have to be clearly spelled out, with exact minimum dimensions printed on a sign. Would shopping centers want to go through that extra hassle and expense, just for the sake of the guys driving the big trucks/SUVs? Realistically speaking, I would say it's very doubtful.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

I would think the dynamics controlling movement (car performance) is different from crash worthiness. A person with muscles will hurt the same from a fall as as person with little muscles. Still hurts.

On the flip side, if you could perform better, better control, better braking, you can avoid accidents all together.

I believe if you strengthen a car's chassis, you change the dynamics of it's ability to crumple. Kinetic energy is transferred thru a stiffer frame onto it's occupants.

[Nords]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

I believe if you strengthen a car's chassis, you change the dynamics of it's ability to crumple. Kinetic energy is transferred thru a stiffer frame onto it's occupants.

And let's go to the video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xwYB...layer_embedded

This is one example of a bunch of versions of the crash test between a 2009 Chevy Malibu and a 1959 Chevy Bel Air (with the obligatory fuzzy dice hanging from the rearview mirror). 40 MPH, offset to the driver's side. The first crumple zone in the Bel Air appears to be the passenger. The Malibu's passenger compartment doesn't even seem to be significantly affected.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

Try finding a video where a modified Honda has the same crumple characterisitics of an unmodified one and see if the results are the same. This is my point.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

Even if all the compact stalls are taken?

The idea behind the compact stalls is obviously to fit in more cars into the same space.

My personal feeling is that if most or all of the compact stalls on a lot are filled, then there's nothing wrong with a compact car using a regular sized stall. AFAIAC, anything that encourages motorists to use smaller vehicles on the road in the city is a good thing.

Likewise if all larger stalls are filled then there's nothing wrong with a Minivan using a compact sized stall. There are lots of compact stalls at further walking distances than regular-sized stalls nearby but if it were a rainy day and the compact stalls were farther out than a regular stall, where would you park?

I can see not driving a large SUV or even a massive truck to a WalMart parking lot, but remember Minivans are bigger than compact cars but are a necessity for larger families.

The point I was addressing in the Kaiser Moanalua parking lot is that there are larger vehicles (including minivans) that need those stalls. But because of their convienence to the main building itself, it's more desirable to park there instead of driving around and around on the lower decks to find parking in tight stalls (even for compact vehicles). Plus because of the larger stalls, some people who own compact vehicles park there because they know there is less chance of their car getting dinged by another because of the increased distance between vehicles.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

I can see not driving a large SUV or even a massive truck to a WalMart parking lot, but remember Minivans are bigger than compact cars but are a necessity for larger families.

The point I was addressing in the Kaiser Moanalua parking lot is that there are larger vehicles (including minivans) that need those stalls.

Well, no matter what size of vehicle patients/visitors arrive in, I don't often see large families coming in all at one time to Kaiser or any other medical center. So that negates your previous argument as far as the "necessity" of driving a minivan to a hospital/medical center parking lot. (Those who drive a mini or full-sized van because it has wheelchair ramps will no doubt have the disabled parking permit to use the handicapped stalls.)

But because of their convienence to the main building itself, it's more desirable to park there instead of driving around and around on the lower decks to find parking in tight stalls (even for compact vehicles). Plus because of the larger stalls, some people who own compact vehicles park there because they know there is less chance of their car getting dinged by another because of the increased distance between vehicles.

Two cliches here apply.

1) Early bird gets the worm.

2) Being at the right place at the right time.

[cynsaligia]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

So if a Ford Escape got creamed that badly, a Smart car would be...worse.

your assumption that bigger = safer is =/= completely accurate. given a 2010 C class versus a 1980 LTD, i know which i'd rather be in if there were a crash.

yes, i know you acknowledged advances in auto safety technology, so let's look specifically at the vehicles you named: ford escape's crash test ratings. smart fortwo's crash test ratings.

(of course, i'm smart enough to understand that the IIHS is an arm of the car insurance industry, so they have certain motivations to make certain pronouncements sometimes that may not necessarily be to the benefit of the general public.)

Well, no matter what size of vehicle patients/visitors arrive in, I don't often see large families coming in all at one time to Kaiser or any other medical center. So that negates your previous argument as far as the "necessity" of driving a minivan to a hospital/medical center parking lot.

i'm sorry, gramps, that you seem to need to spend so much time at hospitals that you feel qualified to make this argument to counter mr. watanabe's, esp since, as far as i know, whatever your vocation is (if you have one), it's not healthcare-related.

mine is, however. my observation is opposite yours--i see at least one van or suv daily unload a number of people all at one time at the hospital entrance, clearly with the purpose of visiting someone staying in one of the units. this may not be true at all hospitals, since each hospital has a different patient population. those hospitals whose patient population tends to need longer term inpatient care will see more family visits than other hospitals whose patient population need shorter inpatient stays (possibly due to elective versus medically necessary procedures).

Two cliches here apply.

1) Early bird gets the worm.

2) Being at the right place at the right time.

to this i will add:

3) think before you buy.

if someone (1) doesn't think about the fact that more parking spaces on this island will comfortably fit a mazda 6 or toyota tacoma versus an escahoe, then (2) buys a navigator and (3) whines about said lack of roomy parking spaces, then there's a lot to be said about that person, is there not?

On the flip side, if you could perform better, better control, better braking, you can avoid accidents all together.

as part of a household that includes a nissan titan and a mini cooper s, i agree with this statement until the words "all together." given that all variables are the same save which car we're in, i agree that the mini would be more likely to avoid a given accident due to better brakes, maneuverability, quickness, weight etc. than the titan. i'm not going to be so bold as to say we'd be able to avoid accidents altogether.

honestly, eric and i would likely fare much better if in a high speed rear-ender with the titan than the mini. every other crash, though? it's likely we'd be safer in the mini.

of course, i don't want to find out. i don't want anyone to find out how well/poorly they'd do in any car crash.

more proof that > size =/= always safer? (i picked a mini not only bcs it's my car, but also bcs it's definitely one of the smallest cars out there & it's been around longer than smart fortwo in the US.)

mini versus tahoe.

mini versus pathfinder.

mini versus f150.

mini versus lexus LS460

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

Well, no matter what size of vehicle patients/visitors arrive in, I don't often see large families coming in all at one time to Kaiser or any other medical center. So that negates your previous argument as far as the "necessity" of driving a minivan to a hospital/medical center parking lot. (Those who drive a mini or full-sized van because it has wheelchair ramps will no doubt have the disabled parking permit to use the handicapped stalls.)



Two cliches here apply.

1) Early bird gets the worm.

2) Being at the right place at the right time.

Sometimes large families only have one vehicle such as a minivan so you may not see large families going to Kaiser, but you will see minivans at Kaiser because the parent is going there while the kids are in school.

If you were a large family and you could only drive one vehicle, you'd pick one that can cover all bases. It doesn't necessarily have to be full to be driven.

And to your two cliches

1) Early bird should get towed away for parking in stalls designated for larger vehicles

2) The right place for smaller vehicles are in the compact vehicle stalls. Stalls designated for larger vehicles would not be considered the "right place" for compacts.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

i'm sorry, gramps, that you seem to need to spend so much time at hospitals that you feel qualified to make this argument to counter mr. watanabe's, esp since, as far as i know, whatever your vocation is (if you have one), it's not healthcare-related.

No, I'm not in the healthcare biz.

mine is, however. my observation is opposite yours--i see at least one van or suv daily unload a number of people all at one time at the hospital entrance, clearly with the purpose of visiting someone staying in one of the units.

You see it once a day? I believe you. Maybe a handful on a busy day?

But even on its busiest days, a hospital ain't like a shopping mall, hotel, beach, or a tourist attraction, which attracts scores of family-filled vans and SUVs.

Should a hospital tow compact cars parked in regular-sized stalls just to satisfy the smattering (if even that) of van/SUV owners bringing a full load of passengers? I suppose that's up to the hospital administration. Doesn't make much sense to me. Doesn't make for great public/community relations, either.

[cynsaligia]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

2) The right place for smaller vehicles are in the compact vehicle stalls. Stalls designated for larger vehicles would not be considered the "right place" for compacts.

bad argument.

spaces that are not marked compact are not "designated" for anything. they're just spaces. the only spaces on this island that are designated for anything are those spaces marked handicap and compact or motorcycle or bicyle or reserved. additionally, spaces are not marked "compact" to describe the only type of vehicle that is allowed in them, but to describe the size of the space itself. there's a difference.

the day spaces are marked "SUV" or "MINIVAN" or "CAR LARGER THAN X INCHES WIDE and X INCHES LONG" is when there are spaces designated for non-compact vehicles.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Big cars in Honolulu

1) Early bird should get towed away for parking in stalls designated for larger vehicles

2) The right place for smaller vehicles are in the compact vehicle stalls. Stalls designated for larger vehicles would not be considered the "right place" for compacts.

Sounds like you're had more than your fair share of frustration driving around in your large vehicle and not finding a parking stall big enough for it. Feel free to vent.