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  • #16
    Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
    Anyone here think HSF can realign their service here to simply being for cargo only? Steal Aloha's air cargo biz and YB's? Would there be as many protesters if that was the case?
    On Kauai, I think there'd still be protests. The more-organized groups want an EIS more than anything else. It's the rogue individuals with the xenophobic sentiments.
    Twitter: LookMaICanWrite


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    • #17
      Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

      http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...709270352/1071

      Princess Cruises yesterday celebrated a bigger presence in Hawai'i — its Diamond Princess, a ship capable of carrying more than 2,600 passengers to the islands in regular stopovers.

      Hmm....so where is the EIS? Where's the protesters? Come on, don't disappoint me. This ship carries over 3x the max capacity of the HSF. And it's coming from LA, talk about invasive species.



      http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...WS01/709270356

      Formby said the harbor improvements made via the bonds are "public purpose improvements" to Kahului, Nawiliwili, Kawaihae and Honolulu harbors. Although the improvements were done in anticipation of the start of the Hawaii Superferry, the company does not have exclusive rights to the facilities.

      For all those who still think the state somehow gave $40 million to HSF, here's affirmation that it isn't. It's a bond that needed to be repaid and the HSF does not have exclusive rights to the barges/facilities.
      Last edited by joshuatree; September 27, 2007, 06:37 AM. Reason: added more content

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      • #18
        ?jUSt listen to John Lehman et. al's Hawaii $uperfascUSt ferry plans

        .
        jUSt listening = endorsement
        \quote=glossyp= " In this case (http://hawaiithreads.com/showpost.ph...9&postcount=76) (, "listening" is indeed tantamount to an endorsement. It reduces free speech to a species of political capitulation and renders dialogue indistinguishable from a suicide pact." ==/quote

        ?Why does not the same reasoning from glossyp's quote apply to Oahu's neighbor island citizens when they are expected by off-islanders (those not of their own island) to merely listen to Lingle tell them what's she has planned for them to accept, welcome and live with for the rest of their lives and their children's lives?

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        • #19
          Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

          Originally posted by helen View Post
          I was kind of wondering about this, the cars that was being pounded were these cars just arrived on the SuperFerry or were these cars about to leave on the SuperFerry?
          I don't know for sure, but I believe they were attacking passengers, not the ferry or it's representatives. Blockading would be one things, but to attack and vandalize the users - shame.

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          • #20
            Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

            Originally posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
            A bunch of the protesters took a break from exercising the provisions of the First Amendment to protect the others from the real "Kauai idiot" by immobilizing the vehicle.
            Whose the idiot? Anyone whose ever watched "COPS" knows that flatting tires does NOT immobilize a vehicle.

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            • #21
              Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
              4,701 sounds like a lot of people, but that's about 8% or 1.3% per year. Doesn't sound like that big number to me. What's the normal growth though birth rate? I don't have time now to look, but I have to wonder if more people are leaving Kauai then arriving.
              Oops. I think I missed your point - that an extra 200 cars on the road wasn't that big a deal. If 200 cars would lead to gridlock, then the island was only a year away from gridlock anyway.

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              • #22
                Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...709270352/1071

                Princess Cruises yesterday celebrated a bigger presence in Hawai'i — its Diamond Princess, a ship capable of carrying more than 2,600 passengers to the islands in regular stopovers.

                Hmm....so where is the EIS? Where's the protesters? Come on, don't disappoint me. This ship carries over 3x the max capacity of the HSF. And it's coming from LA, talk about invasive species.



                http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...WS01/709270356

                Formby said the harbor improvements made via the bonds are "public purpose improvements" to Kahului, Nawiliwili, Kawaihae and Honolulu harbors. Although the improvements were done in anticipation of the start of the Hawaii Superferry, the company does not have exclusive rights to the facilities.

                For all those who still think the state somehow gave $40 million to HSF, here's affirmation that it isn't. It's a bond that needed to be repaid and the HSF does not have exclusive rights to the barges/facilities.
                I don't know where the Princess cruise docks on the other islands, but on Maui, they anchor off Lahaina and passengers are ferried in on smaller barges. Regarding an EIS for all the cruise industry in Hawai'i, that is in fact happening. I mentioned this story many posts back, but apparently many people didn't notice it. So here is the story again about the DOT and the Visitors Bureau working with HDEBT and DNLR on a type of EA that will examine the economic and environmental impact of the cruise industry on Hawai'i. The money for the study is coming out of the DOT budget and a draft is expected to be presented sometime next year.

                As far as the harbor improvements go, Barry Fukunaga, duing the Maui Superferry hearings, testified that the improvements were specifically done for HSF and no one else will use it. Gotcha.

                Miulang
                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                • #23
                  Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                  Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                  Whose the idiot? Anyone whose ever watched "COPS" knows that flatting tires does NOT immobilize a vehicle.
                  You ever drove on the semi-paved, pothole-ridden road at the Nawiliwili jetty?
                  Twitter: LookMaICanWrite


                  flickr

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                  • #24
                    Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                    Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                    I don't know where the Princess cruise docks on the other islands, but on Maui, they anchor off Lahaina and passengers are ferried in on smaller barges. Regarding an EIS for all the cruise industry in Hawai'i, that is in fact happening. I mentioned this story many posts back, but apparently many people didn't notice it. So here is the story again about the DOT and the Visitors Bureau working with HDEBT and DNLR on a type of EA that will examine the economic and environmental impact of the cruise industry on Hawai'i. The money for the study is coming out of the DOT budget and a draft is expected to be presented sometime next year.

                    As far as the harbor improvements go, Barry Fukunaga, duing the Maui Superferry hearings, testified that the improvements were specifically done for HSF and no one else will use it. Gotcha.

                    Miulang
                    But why are people permitting the cruise ships to continue service while an EA/EIS is being done concurrently? Why aren't people jumping into the waters to block the ships from docking? Keep in mind, cruise ships actually do carry bilge water which means possible invasive species. They also have been known to violate environmental laws such as dumping waste in water. Why aren't people deflating the wheels off tourist's Samsonites when they get off the boat? Gotcha.

                    At this point, Barry doesn't sound like a very bright man. But more importantly than his claims or his words, what does the actual contract say? You know in court, the contract matters more than just words.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                      Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                      But why are people permitting the cruise ships to continue service while an EA/EIS is being done concurrently? Why aren't people jumping into the waters to block the ships from docking? Keep in mind, cruise ships actually do carry bilge water which means possible invasive species. They also have been known to violate environmental laws such as dumping waste in water. Why aren't people deflating the wheels off tourist's Samsonites when they get off the boat? Gotcha.

                      At this point, Barry doesn't sound like a very bright man. But more importantly than his claims or his words, what does the actual contract say? You know in court, the contract matters more than just words.
                      I believe the cruise lines started service prior to HEPA. HSF starts service after HEPA was put on the books. I believe that is the difference. And if the cruise lines as a class of business started service after HEPA (I don't think that's the case, though), then the DOT was again guilty of ignoring its own rules (something they appear to have done selectively recently). Two wrongs don't make a right. Tourists (as in Mainlanders) probably also spend more money than locals who are visiting their relatives on the Neighbor Islands.

                      For lines of businesses that existed prior to the implementation of HEPA, I do believe it would be more than fair for them to all have to undergo environmental scrutiny retrospectively. But you can't stop YB or Matson service (you might be able to stop the cruise ships, though) because they are the lifelines for the Neighbor Islands at this point and that would amount to an illegal embargo.

                      Residents mutter under their breath about the tourists from the cruise lines, but not all cruise passengers drive cars when ashore. And the rental cars they do drive are already on the island.

                      Maui Tomorrow has been grumbling about illegal dumping from cruise ships for years. They also grumble about private boaters doing the same thing.

                      Barry indeed is not looking very bright these days. I wish someone could get their hands on the Letter of Intent that was signed by HSF and the DOT so we could get the real story. No one has produced that document yet, as far as I know. I wonder if a resident could use the FOIA to get it?

                      Miulang

                      P.S. As far as people protesting against the cruise lines the way Kauaians are, remember the people of Moloka'i. They successfully fended off attempts by the cruise lines to establish a port of call there. And they have even fewer residents than the Garden Isle does. Some of the organizers of the protests on Kaua'i look to the protests against the cruise lines that Moloka'i waged as their inspiration.
                      "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                      • #26
                        Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                        joshuatree asks: " But why are people permitting the cruise ships to continue service while an EA/EIS is being done concurrently? ... Why aren't people jumping into the waters to block the ships from docking?Why aren't people deflating the wheels off tourist's Samsonites when they get off the boat? "

                        Visitors coming off of cruise ships almost without exception do not debark cruise ships to get on motorcycles, in cars and trucks and vans and campers to cruise the island where their ship is docked. Such visitors do not come and try to sell something legally or illegally. Such visitors do not go to public parks to clean-up, hang out (their clothes?), camp illegally. They do not cruise neighborhoods with empty pockets and drug habits to feed. They do not come trying to look for work and housing, driving down wages, driving up rents. Visitors and their possessions off the cruise ships do not even begin to compare with passengers and their possessions which the Superferry ensures will arrive to Oahu's neighbor islands by the thousands weekly, and may or may not return to Oahu.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                          Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                          I believe the cruise lines started service prior to HEPA. HSF starts service after HEPA was put on the books. I believe that is the difference. And if the cruise lines as a class of business started service after HEPA (I don't think that's the case, though), then the DOT was again guilty of ignoring its own rules (something they appear to have done selectively recently). Two wrongs don't make a right. Tourists (as in Mainlanders) probably also spend more money than locals who are visiting their relatives on the Neighbor Islands.
                          This is where I will ask what two wrongs? DOT has the power to exempt under the existing 343. It seems that protesters look the other way when certain exemptions make them happy and not others when they don't. I also find it ironic that protesters can accept "grandfathered" services even though they yell the loudest about aina above all else. If one can accept the concept of "grandfathered", one should accept HSF got a legal exemption. Be consistent.

                          And you mentioned tourists spending more money. So have we finally uncovered the real reason behind the ferry opposition? It's the $$$? Makes protesters no better than the "evil corporate businesses". So how much does HSF have to spend to buy off the protesters?


                          Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                          Visitors coming off of cruise ships almost without exception do not debark cruise ships to get on motorcycles, in cars and trucks and vans and campers to cruise the island where their ship is docked. Such visitors do not come and try to sell something legally or illegally. Such visitors do not go to public parks to clean-up, hang out (their clothes?), camp illegally. They do not cruise neighborhoods with empty pockets and drug habits to feed. They do not come trying to look for work and housing, driving down wages, driving up rents. Visitors and their possessions off the cruise ships do not even begin to compare with passengers and their possessions which the Superferry ensures will arrive to Oahu's neighbor islands by the thousands weekly, and may or may not return to Oahu.
                          Can you point to me where are the facts for your statements that visitors from the HSF come to try and sell something legally or illegally? Or that visitors go to public parks to clean up, hang out their clothes, camp illegally? Or that they cruise neighborhoods with empty pockets and drug habits to feed? Look for work? Seriously, Oahu has a much better job market for the state. Can you discuss this issue without fear mongering and unsubstantiated statements?

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                          • #28
                            Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                            This is where I will ask what two wrongs? DOT has the power to exempt under the existing 343. It seems that protesters look the other way when certain exemptions make them happy and not others when they don't. I also find it ironic that protesters can accept "grandfathered" services even though they yell the loudest about aina above all else. If one can accept the concept of "grandfathered", one should accept HSF got a legal exemption. Be consistent.

                            And you mentioned tourists spending more money. So have we finally uncovered the real reason behind the ferry opposition? It's the $$$? Makes protesters no better than the "evil corporate businesses". So how much does HSF have to spend to buy off the protesters?
                            ?
                            HSF would be a nice alternative, but not a critical necessity. There are still airplanes that fly interisland, but there are virtually no other methods for getting essential goods from Oahu to the Neighbor Islands that are cost effective. Get rid of the Jones Act, beef up each Neighbor Island harbor and then even that requirement would go away. Talk about uneven enforcement of the laws: why did the DOT conduct an EA for the purchase of the additional land from A&B that was needed to replace some of the land that HSF took away from YB but not one for the reason why the additional land needed to be bought in the first place?

                            HSF got the exemption because the State allows each department to have a list of exemptions to HEPA. You would think the OEQC should be the one to determine and enforce environmental rules, but they are subordinate to the DOT and other departments. Doesn't make sense to me. That's like having the fox guard the henhouse. Wouldn't it be in the best interests of a particular department to try to grant as many exemptions as possible if it furthered a particular agenda (in this case, could be political payoff or increasing revenue). Again, in my opinion, it's the fault of the State for this mess. If they really had the cojones, they would forego requiring repayment of the $40 million from HSF while an EA was being conducted. Then there would be no reason for extortion or threats of HSF leaving Hawai'i because if the Dept. of Finance and MARAD both allow extensions, I think the HSF management would be willing to stick it out until an EA was completed.

                            Say about $200/day? (just being facetious)
                            Over the first seven months of the year, Wienert noted, visitor spending rose 0.2 percent over the same period last year. And she said average daily visitor spending for the first seven months of 2007 increased 2.8 percent to $178 per person.
                            BTW: Don't blame the people on the Neighbor Islands for wanting to have jobs and food on their table. Remember, Oahu is the commercial center; the Neighbor Islands have to rely pretty much on tourism for their bread and butter.

                            Miulang
                            Last edited by Miulang; September 27, 2007, 11:54 AM.
                            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                            • #29
                              Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                              Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                              HSF would be a nice alternative, but not a critical necessity. There are still airplanes that fly interisland, but there are virtually no other methods for getting essential goods from Oahu to the Neighbor Islands that are cost effective. Get rid of the Jones Act, beef up each Neighbor Island harbor and then even that requirement would go away. Talk about uneven enforcement of the laws: why did the DOT conduct an EA for the purchase of the additional land from A&B that was needed to replace some of the land that HSF took away from YB but not one for the reason why the additional land needed to be bought in the first place?
                              Because the land purchased needed some redevelopment (construction or maybe razing) to make it suitable for YB operations? As for HSF, what mods were done to Pier 2? Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought they simply bought a barge from China, towed it up to Pier 2, and viola, facilities for HSF?

                              I'm all for getting rid of the Jones Act but I have to wonder how much beefing up of neighbor island harbors will happen? Figure everyone's so about the aina these days.


                              Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                              BTW: Don't blame the people on the Neighbor Islands for wanting to have jobs and food on their table. Remember, Oahu is the commercial center; the Neighbor Islands have to rely pretty much on tourism for their bread and butter.
                              And it's never occurred to folks that by preventing any other types of industry to develop, neighbor islanders are literally transforming themselves into future Oahu's because they are solely relying on tourism, much like Oahu? Again, it's never occurred that maybe niche agriculture can be enhanced by a ferry and the market will be Oahu? That's why I asked earlier what opposition will there be if HSF simply became nothing but a super fast barge, hauling cargo?

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                              • #30
                                Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                                And it's never occurred to folks that by preventing any other types of industry to develop, neighbor islanders are literally transforming themselves into future Oahu's because they are solely relying on tourism, much like Oahu? Again, it's never occurred that maybe niche agriculture can be enhanced by a ferry and the market will be Oahu? That's why I asked earlier what opposition will there be if HSF simply became nothing but a super fast barge, hauling cargo?
                                Well, it will probably have to be an average-speed cargo transport, if Greg Kaufman from PWF and NOAA have anything to say about it . It would make the owners more money more quickly if all it did was transport cargo, though, if you look at the current tariffs for commercial trucks. If they took over the LCL business that YB wants to get rid of, it would be a win-win for everybody. And I'm sure MLP and Grove Farm (2 of the local investors in HSF) wouldn't mind, either, as it would give them another alternative to getting their own goods transported.

                                BTW: the additional land that the State bought for YB to use was just a parking lot. So I think there was very little redevelopment cost associated with the purchase. And there's a little bit more to the ferry terminal at Kahului besides the barge. There are some tents, some additional road work to close off Ala Luina and more security fencing.

                                Miulang
                                Last edited by Miulang; September 27, 2007, 12:20 PM.
                                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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