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  #26  
Old December 9th, 2009, 08:29 PM
bjd392 bjd392 is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

Reiterating the officer discretion portion (and including that 2005 link), there is a common buffer above the speed limit that a cop won't bother ticketing you for. On average, it is about 11-17 mph above the speed limit. Anything less than 10 over is a lower check mark to the citation's speed bracket of extra revenue, and a cop isn't going to waste their time with that. (They will, however, use it if they need probably cause to pull you over and conduct a search. That's just an excuse to do something more than write a ticket.)

I've personally done 67 in a 55 in the #1 lane on H-1W along the curve where H-2 meets. I saw a motorcycle cop from about 1/2 mile away because of all the spontaneous brake lights in an area where it makes no sense to stop. When I approached him, I maintained my speed; the motorcop didn't even flinch at my car.

(I do secretly laugh at them when they try to shoot laser at westbound traffic at 5pm. There's a waste of time.) Other drivers are the tell-tale for where cops are, because no one should be dumb enough to hit the brakes on open roads. The maximum effective range of a portable laser is about 750 feet. They would prefer to nab you at 300-500 feet (or about 20 car lengths).

Honolulu uses the laser, as opposed to the radar. Laser is historically more accurate, although insufficient proof of calibration can overturn a speeding ticket:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/29/2920.asp



Reiterating the whole concept of "letter vs spirit" of the law, discretion makes the spirit 99%, and the letter 1%. The same is true for criminal cases. The District Attorney can throw out cases he doesn't think he can win. The letter of the law arrested the suspect, but the spirit of the law let him go.
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  #27  
Old December 9th, 2009, 09:11 PM
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Exclamation Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
(minimum posted speed limit)

But if he is going 55 (posted maximum speed limit) and people are bent on driving faster. He is in no obligation to move over since the law specifically states that that speed is the maximum speed for which a driver is allowed to drive. Anything higher is illegal.
Craig, it is not the duty of citizens to enforce the law on other citizens; that is the job of police.

The law says: "Slower Traffic Keep Right." I doesn't say 'keep left if they are speeding.'

As interpreted by law, it means that if someone is going faster than you, it is incumbent upon you to move to the right and let them pass.

"[291C-41b] Drive on right side of roadway; exceptions.
(b) Upon all roadways any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway." (emphasis mine)

Notice, no reference to speed limits. NORMAL speed is the speed of traffic, whether it is below or over the limit.
We have been through this before, although I cannot find it; if someone is behind you in the left lane, going faster than you, you are legally obligated to "keep right," since you are "slower traffic."
Most left-lane slow drivers drive like they are the only vehicle on the road - in a trance, or zombiefied. That is why I call them "Left-Lane Zombies."

Sure, if you are speeding you can be tagged, but not by a citizen. If you are clogging the left lane you can be tagged, too, but it's more likely you will be "ZAPATAGGED," cut off, shot, bumped or fingered.

Left-Lane Zombies: Stop playing policeman. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. If you don't know the rules, get off the road - you're a hazard!

By the way, where do you find these mythical "Minimum Posted Speed Limits?"

K
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  #28  
Old December 9th, 2009, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

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Originally Posted by Kaonohi View Post
By the way, where do you find these mythical "Minimum Posted Speed Limits?"

K
They are all over the freeways of Honolulu. Remember POSTED speed limits are there because those are the laws.

Where did you get the impression that I made any reference to citizens enforcing traffic laws?

If the driver is going the speed limit he is under no obligation to heed to faster traffic. Faster traffic must heed to the POSTED SPEED LIMITS. There are no exceptions.
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  #29  
Old December 9th, 2009, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

I find it funny that Hawaii is the only place I've seen with SO MANY minimum speed limit signs on the highways. The only place Dallas has them is at the airport. Those are the only two places I've ever seen them.
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  #30  
Old December 10th, 2009, 02:31 AM
bjd392 bjd392 is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

We are referring to my post (Post #18) on the MUTCD of regulatory signs, which thereby makes the "Slower Traffic" sign trump the speed-limit-driver.

White sign, black letters (Regulatory): tells you what to do.
Yellow sign, black letters (Advisory): advises you that this is the engineer's recommendation.


To answer my own question on how to handle "persons who impede traffic" by "going the speed limit" and not the safe engineered speed of traffic:
I am a #1 lane driver because I know I "pass" people on the left... continually. If a "slow" driver is in the fast lane, I will tail and hint that they have 10 seconds to obey the Regulatory sign to KEEP RIGHT. If they don't, I pass them on the right with my tires on the lane line, and then cut them off. I flash the Hazard lights warning them they are more of a danger to the road than I just was. Then, I continue on my way to my destination at "REASONABLE AND PRUDENT SPEED" ensuring the safety and efficiency of traffic, within the spirit of the speed limit buffer. (I'm a downtown Los Angeleno Californian; I'm a better trained driver than you.)

I'm almost tempted to drive in front of them, then slow down to 40, just long enough to piss them off and make them merge right in an attempt to pass me. Then I speed up and continue on my way, solving the freeway's problem by getting the impeding driver's car out of the fast lane.

I gave up Law Enforcement to pursue a career that paid more than scraps. But that doesn't mean I still don't think that even Slow Drivers fall under the category of "Unsafe Speeders." In California, there's an impeding law. If on a highway and more than 5 cars are behind you because you're holding them up, you MUST pull to the right and allow them to pass, regardless of your speed. California Highway Patrol has, and does ticket for that. It still falls under C.V.C 22350 Unsafe Speed.
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  #31  
Old December 10th, 2009, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

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Originally Posted by bjd392 View Post
We are referring to my post (Post #18) on the MUTCD of regulatory signs, which thereby makes the "Slower Traffic" sign trump the speed-limit-driver.

White sign, black letters (Regulatory): tells you what to do.
Yellow sign, black letters (Advisory): advises you that this is the engineer's recommendation.


To answer my own question on how to handle "persons who impede traffic" by "going the speed limit" and not the safe engineered speed of traffic:
I am a #1 lane driver because I know I "pass" people on the left... continually. If a "slow" driver is in the fast lane, I will tail and hint that they have 10 seconds to obey the Regulatory sign to KEEP RIGHT. If they don't, I pass them on the right with my tires on the lane line, and then cut them off. I flash the Hazard lights warning them they are more of a danger to the road than I just was. Then, I continue on my way to my destination at "REASONABLE AND PRUDENT SPEED" ensuring the safety and efficiency of traffic, within the spirit of the speed limit buffer. (I'm a downtown Los Angeleno Californian; I'm a better trained driver than you.)

I'm almost tempted to drive in front of them, then slow down to 40, just long enough to piss them off and make them merge right in an attempt to pass me. Then I speed up and continue on my way, solving the freeway's problem by getting the impeding driver's car out of the fast lane.

I gave up Law Enforcement to pursue a career that paid more than scraps. But that doesn't mean I still don't think that even Slow Drivers fall under the category of "Unsafe Speeders." In California, there's an impeding law. If on a highway and more than 5 cars are behind you because you're holding them up, you MUST pull to the right and allow them to pass, regardless of your speed. California Highway Patrol has, and does ticket for that. It still falls under C.V.C 22350 Unsafe Speed.
You're kidding me right? You tell me I'm the one trying to enforce laws and then you fire off that post?

Sounds as if you're the one trying to enforce traffic laws by virtue of your post. If someone attempted to do as you suggested you would, I would be on the phone calling the police (with my hands free set up of course).

And excuse me but this is Hawaii Threads and your post is described as "Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves" so it is implied that we're not talking statuates in California but here in Hawaii. I'm sorry but if the posted speed limit is the speed I'm going, take me to court. I can't be cited for driving the speed limit. There is a fundamental assumption here that driving the speed limit is the law and I'm within the law while speeders who feel it's too slow is in fact breaking them and punishable in any traffic court. A police officer tagging me instead of going after speeders is not upholding his duty to protect law abiding citizens like myself and can be held accountable for his indescretion.

I'm sorry but posted speed limits are just that POSTED and speed LIMITS. Drive over it and you are subject to speeding laws IN ANY STATE. Drive within it and no traffic court can hold you guilty of breaking any law. I'll take it to the Supreme court because it's clearly black and white here.

And you say you were in Law Enforcement? If you conducted yourself in that manner in uniform, you'd be out of that career in a heartbeat unless it wasn't with any county police.

And please...I've been driving for over 30-years in traffic not within the confines of this country. I've also raced professionally in strip, circle and slalom. I know how to drive both defensively and accurately. You don't do stunts like you've described on public roadways, save that for the exhibition driving circuits.
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Last edited by craigwatanabe; December 10th, 2009 at 03:01 PM.
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  #32  
Old December 10th, 2009, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

Keep right laws:
http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/right.html

Hawaii's specific rule:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscur...0291C-0041.htm

Additional link to the same rule:
http://www.duihawaii.com/chapter_291c.htm

2001 article covering similar argument:
http://archives.starbulletin.com/200...kokualine.html

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Lane Courtesy / Driving Ethics:
http://www.motorists.org/lanecourtesy/

Specifically: http://www.motorists.org/lanecourtes...e-speed-limit/

Last edited by DaFerret; December 10th, 2009 at 08:05 PM. Reason: addendum
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  #33  
Old December 10th, 2009, 10:17 PM
bjd392 bjd392 is offline
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Wink Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

It may be fantasy to be an idealist and hope that everyone abides by rules and laws all the time, but the real world, the realist wins.

There is a simple truth to the fact that black-and-white fails and discretion wins. Who are the biggest violators of the laws? THE ONES WHO WRITE THEM AND THE ONES WHO ENFORCE THEM. They know what the buffers are. They know that a simple flash of a badge or a political ID card grants them professional courtesy. I guarantee you that no Judge drives the speed limit (or cop for that matter), and should he get pulled over, the cop won't be dumb enough to write a judge a ticket.

Secondly, falling on realism, HPD won't give that call for service the time of day. Honolulu Advertiser may make them look like they're proactive, but they are very reactive. They would rather wait for an accident then to send a patrol car to the last place it was called to. A call for service, from the moment of phone call to the moment the dispatcher sends a unit, can be as high as 20 minutes if the priority of the call is low (such as this example). This is why calling the police for "wreckless drivers" is really two people tying up an emergency phone line. (Should they actually take that call, they would have to witness the infraction in progress in order to have probable cause to pull that car over anyway.) Besides, if I knew it worked, I'd be on the phone every time I drive, and I'd make it a personal quota to target at least 5 cars per trip. But I'm a realist, and that crap doesn't happen. Therefore, the opinion that every other driver is bad falls under this portion of the pet peeve.
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  #34  
Old December 10th, 2009, 10:22 PM
bjd392 bjd392 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFerret View Post
Keep right laws:
2001 article covering similar argument:
http://archives.starbulletin.com/200...kokualine.html
This article is good. They are the opinions of others who drive here, and many other people on these boards agree.
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  #35  
Old December 10th, 2009, 10:37 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

The following is a continually refreshing link to the Honolulu PD traffic website: http://www4.honolulu.gov/hpdtraffic/

At the time of this posting (covering a span of 5 hours), there were over 30 collisions, 10 stalls, 10 traffic nuisances/parking violations, and 13 calls for hazardous drivers.

Priority 1 and 2 calls will be the accidents (because they have the potential for injury or hazard). I'm willing to bet not one of the 13 hazardous driver calls were found. The police are stretched thin enough already when it comes to transportation, especially when a collision eats up anywhere between 3-8+ units for 2-3 hours at a time.
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  #36  
Old December 13th, 2009, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

In the Star-Bulletin, Honolulu police Capt. Bryan Wauke responded:

By law, "slower" drivers should keep to the right. Section 291C-41(b) of the Hawaii Revised Statutes addresses the topic of driving on the right side: "Upon all roadways, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway."

(Emphasis mine)

Please note: "normal" speed, not the speed limit. If you are going slower than the other traffic, more right!

K?
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  #37  
Old December 14th, 2009, 04:20 AM
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Thumbs down Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

A new one. This is more of a pedestrian pet peeve:

When you're in a parking lot and you see a car with white backup lights on, and rear-ward motion... DON'T WALK BEHIND THE CAR BACKING OUT OF THE SPACE!

The law of gross-tonnage is in the car's favor, but your stupidity makes it the driver's fault for hitting you.


A car is easy to see. It's big and has headlights, and it will either stop to take that parking space, or it will continue on knowing it's visible enough for the driver backing out to see it. A pedestrian is a ninja all the way up until they show up in the rear-view mirror or windshield within inches of hitting them. Don't be stupid.
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  #38  
Old December 14th, 2009, 12:53 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

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Don't be stupid.
Don't let 'em put I HAD THE RIGHT-OF-WAY on your tombstone, as my madda used ta say.
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  #39  
Old December 14th, 2009, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

I can't stand it when someone is doing 90 in the fast lane.


...and doesn't move over when I want to pass.




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  #40  
Old December 14th, 2009, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

I hate it when you're walking in the white zebra-striped zone near the front of a store (the area clearly designated for pedestrians, giving them the right of way) and cars zoom thru the parking lot, nearly running you over. Or slowly crawl by, still making you stand and wait, especially when it's really hot or really cold or raining. You're sheltered in a car, presumably with AC or heat, and I'm standing out in the elements. Thanks, jerk!
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Old December 15th, 2009, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by surlygirly View Post
I hate it when you're walking in the white zebra-striped zone near the front of a store (the area clearly designated for pedestrians, giving them the right of way) ...
That's news to me, SG. I knew the striped areas indicated walkways, of course, but I never knew that also gave pedestrians any right of way.
I must be dumb, cuz I always wait for a break in the traffic to walk across. To my mind that benefits everyone by keeping the traffic flow moving.
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  #42  
Old December 15th, 2009, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

After doing an internet search, the best answer I can find is that the diagonal stripes generally give right of way to pedestrians. I'm sorry if I got the exact law incorrect. In my opinion, this is also the courteous thing to do, especially when it is raining or the weather is one extreme or the other. Most drivers here will yield, but my peeve is with the drivers who drive at a high rate of speed through the parking lot, not watching out for those crossing with grocery carts, etc. I know we got distracted by laws, but I was responding to the original poster's inquiry about pet peeves.
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Old December 15th, 2009, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by surlygirly View Post
After doing an internet search, the best answer I can find is that the diagonal stripes generally give right of way to pedestrians. I'm sorry if I got the exact law incorrect. In my opinion, this is also the courteous thing to do, especially when it is raining or the weather is one extreme or the other. Most drivers here will yield, but my peeve is with the drivers who drive at a high rate of speed through the parking lot, not watching out for those crossing with grocery carts, etc. I know we got distracted by laws, but I was responding to the original poster's inquiry about pet peeves.
The courtesy factor works both ways. Usually body language between a pedestrian and a driver making EYE CONTACT will notion who's giving who the right to pass. That's when the flow works. Pedestrians should be smart enough to also cross when another one is in the process of crossing (making this pause more efficient).

What did school teach? "Look both ways before crossing." That is something pedestrians seldom do. They see a white line and think they can walk right into it like as if paint can stop a truck. A car is probably driving through there because in that moment in time, there was no pedestrian present when he was approaching the crosswalk. (There are notable exceptions, of course.) The "ninja" that jumps out from behind a pillar and decides to walk into traffic deserves to be hit. See above posts.

Gauging when a pedestrian is going to cross and when they're going to wait is usually hinted with their pregnant pause at the curb. If I'm driving down the parking lot lane and no one is present within 5-10 feet of the curbline, I'm going to continue. If there is someone at the curbline watching my car, I will (more than likely) stop and let them pass unless I get the wave. I always cover the brake when going through those lanes because of the above mentioned "ninjas." If I'm forced to stop because some ignorant person randomly walks out into a street without paying attention, I will yell out my window that they should look both ways for their safety (naturally in a more angered sarcastic tone), pointing out their intellectual and Darwinistic flaws.
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  #44  
Old December 15th, 2009, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

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The courtesy factor works both ways. Usually body language between a pedestrian and a driver making EYE CONTACT will notion who's giving who the right to pass.
your post reminds me of a pet peeve i have about drivers who have windows that are so dark you can't see in.
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  #45  
Old December 15th, 2009, 11:01 PM
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Angry Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

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Originally Posted by bjd392 View Post
The courtesy factor works both ways. Usually body language between a pedestrian and a driver making EYE CONTACT will notion who's giving who the right to pass. That's when the flow works. Pedestrians should be smart enough to also cross when another one is in the process of crossing (making this pause more efficient).

What did school teach? "Look both ways before crossing." That is something pedestrians seldom do. They see a white line and think they can walk right into it like as if paint can stop a truck. A car is probably driving through there because in that moment in time, there was no pedestrian present when he was approaching the crosswalk. (There are notable exceptions, of course.) The "ninja" that jumps out from behind a pillar and decides to walk into traffic deserves to be hit. See above posts.

Gauging when a pedestrian is going to cross and when they're going to wait is usually hinted with their pregnant pause at the curb. If I'm driving down the parking lot lane and no one is present within 5-10 feet of the curbline, I'm going to continue. If there is someone at the curbline watching my car, I will (more than likely) stop and let them pass unless I get the wave. I always cover the brake when going through those lanes because of the above mentioned "ninjas." If I'm forced to stop because some ignorant person randomly walks out into a street without paying attention, I will yell out my window that they should look both ways for their safety (naturally in a more angered sarcastic tone), pointing out their intellectual and Darwinistic flaws.
I have, too often, seen pedestrians (in a rural area, no less!), walk, no, jaywalk, in front of a bus to get it to stop so they can get on when it makes its stop. (Hui Ulili and Ahuimanu Place).
What are these people thinking? The bus driver had to slam on the brakes.

"I'm entitled,and they can't run me over!"?

Like leo said: the epitath: "But I had the right of way!"

K~
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  #46  
Old December 16th, 2009, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

Okay...after just having come back from driving in LA. I can appreciate the notion of faster and normal speed in one sentence outside of posted speed limits. In Hawaii the speed limits on freeways is typically 55-mph with exceptions on the H3 at 60-mph. With city traffic going anywhere from 25 to 40-mph, going 55 on a 40 can be done at some with some prudence to safety.

In LA on the 605 however where posted speed limits is 65-mph and traffic routinely going speeds in excess of 75-mph is normal, even at speeds of 80-85 can be prudently safe considering typical speeds of 70-75 mph.

Put that into the equation where a driver is putting along at 65-mph I can see a clear example of a dangerous situation when average speeds are in the upper 70's.

In Honolulu however the difference between highway driving at 55-mph and city driving at 40-mph isn't dramatic as opposed to LA driving at 85-mph on the freeways and 40-mph in the city limits. So somone going 55 in Honolulu wouldn't normally see someone flying in from the back at 85-mph. More like 65-mph where a speeding person can negotiate a lane change within enough time to safely avoid a rear end collision.

I can see how such a statuate must be needed for California freeway traffic where speeds routinely exceed 70-mph. Here in Hawaii 70-mph is considered wayyyyyy to fast due to freeway construction design and prevailing weather conditions. Most people could not drive safely here in Hawaii on the freeways in excess of that speed continously simply because of the strange places our designers decided to put onramps and such.

But because of the number of onramps and offramps in Honolulu's urban core there is no way one can safely drive 70-plus miles per hour and negotiate lane changes in most areas of the H1 or H2 freeway arteries without slamming into other cars moving around in those respective lanes.

To drive with the flow of traffic in excess of the speed limits is asking for trouble. Anyone here in Hawaii can tell you that the last car in that group of speeders will be the one tagged, regardless of the flow of traffic.

From first hand however, if I ever drive again in LA, you do in fact drive within the flow of the traffic. There drivers tailgate at any speed (the 2-second rule doesn't apply in LA on the free). In Hawaii we tend to be more laid back in our driving and even moreso here on the Big Island).

It is safe to assume for me that Los Angeles automobiles go thru brakes more often than Honolulu drivers simply because of very fast and close driving conditions. You go from very fast (speeds in excess of 75-mph) to 40-mph when traffic backs up in a very short timespan.

My brother who is almost a lifelong LA resident seems stop and go traffic is when traffic drops down to 30-mph. I tell him at least he's moving. Here in Hawaii, we literally stop for a couple of seconds before moving along at a snails pace of less than 25-mph in a 55-mph section of the freeway for miles and miles! When he's used to driving in excess of 75-mph, I can see how 40-mph in that same area can be viewed as stop and go.

On the other hand, it was nice to be able to drive 80-mph with a cop (CHP) behind you telling you to speed up or get out of the way. Now that was a highlight of my trip to Los Angeles.

Bottom line, it's where you live that will dictate how fast "Prudent" is in relation to the driving culture of that region of the United States.
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  #47  
Old December 17th, 2009, 02:31 AM
bjd392 bjd392 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

Thanks for the observation, Craig.

One of the things that I like to tell people when the topic of driving in Hawaii comes up is the fact that Hawaii is THE melting pot of every part of America and many of the Asian countries. The military alone will provide samples from the urban Los Angeleno to the rural Oklahoma tractor boy. If you get 50 states' worth of drivers, and not to mention Chamorros, Japanese, Philippinos, etc., the driver's culture will clash too.

Either way, their idea of "safe" may be unsafe to the other driver, and v.v. But the common root cause to a lot of the traffic problems does lie with Hawaii's transportation infrastructure, and how poorly it's been designed and engineered. (FAIL)
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Old December 17th, 2009, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

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Originally Posted by bjd392 View Post
The courtesy factor works both ways. Usually body language between a pedestrian and a driver making EYE CONTACT will notion who's giving who the right to pass. That's when the flow works. Pedestrians should be smart enough to also cross when another one is in the process of crossing (making this pause more efficient).
Thank you. You phrased that exactly how I meant to and wasn't able to! I didn't mean pedestrians should be allowed to just run right out in the road, but when a driver gives you the eye contact and then goes anyway, you're left jumping back into safety, going . And having to stand there with sacks of groceries in the rain while being sprayed with the backsplash from cars makes me sad.
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Old December 17th, 2009, 04:35 PM
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:. And having to stand there with sacks of groceries in the rain while being sprayed with the backsplash from cars makes me sad.
That's where a bag of rotten tomatoes help.
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Old December 17th, 2009, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Driving Pet Peeves

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Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
Bottom line, it's where you live that will dictate how fast "Prudent" is in relation to the driving culture of that region of the United States.
:thumbsup:

Back when I first started my roadtrip, I wanted my friend to drive most of the way up through and out of California because I was too afraid I wouldn't be going fast enough for everyone. Fortunately for her, I butched up.
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