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  #226  
Old October 13th, 2010, 01:10 AM
Nobunaga
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For Leo and Kalalau.

Mostly for Leo.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_famou...#39;s_Syndrome

You might note that Al Gore is listed. This is not what I was searching for, but it should do for now, and I am still looking. A lot of the information is buried with the Gore bashing on global warming, but now I am beginning to remember seeing an article either in a magazine or newspaper which said that Al Gore may have been having mental problems.

Kalalau, I am glad you remember Al Gore's beard after the 2000 election. At the time, he was facing a very close election loss to Bush. After the courts more or less forced him to concede, he was understandably depressed.
Nobu

Hi Kalalau,
The 9-11 attack was planned years in advance. In fact, it was possibly on the drawing boards before Clinton's defeat of Bush Sr. I really doubt that any president would have avoided the attack, including Reagan, who was the biggest HAWK of a president.

All of this is off topic, but I am interested in your opinion on this?
Who do you think was the worst president of the USA from Truman to present???? Please don't post your answer without thinking about it in debt, looking at all of the presidents, including the very short term Gerald Ford.

I will give you my answer after you.
Nobu

Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Alani View Post
Wow I usually just read and enjoy the discussions but I need to ask, of what significance is a beard to someone's mental capacity?...or am I reading too much into that statement?
Hi D'Alani,
Actually nothing. However, in Gore's case, after losing the election, many felt he really let himself go, by gaining a lot of weight, and growing a beard. This might have played a part in the breakup of his marriage of 40 years to "Tipper".

Howard Hughs, before he died, was seen in Las Vegas without shoes, with his toenails uncut, and his hair uncombed. Would you not think that is strange for one of the wealthiest men on this planet?

Maybe not???
Dunno...
Nobu

Hi Kalalau and Leo,
In 1941, our intelligence reports believed that Japan was planning the Pearl Harbor attack. And the US was surprised by the sneak attack.

So, a memo or report on the President's desk saying that al Qaida was going to make a terrorist attack on the US, my have been taken just is lightly as Pearl Harbor was in 1941.
Nobu
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  #227  
Old October 13th, 2010, 01:39 AM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Nobu, I'm surprised that you would recklessly describe Asperger's Syndrome as "serious mental health problems." You really need to do some more research into AS, as well as autism and other functional conditions.

Note also that your source citation says "Most of the people on the following list are speculated to have Asperger's Syndrome, rather than being confirmed cases of Asperger's Syndrome." But it fails to say who is doing the speculation, and what, if any, appropriate medical backgrounds they have. For all we know, they are listed because somebody on a message board somewhere said "I seem to remember that this person had serious mental health problems, maybe even Asperger's Syndrome" - and, BOOM! It gets circulated wider and wider and eventually accepted as "fact." Hey - if it's on the interwebs, it must be true, yeah?

I think you need to get out of the amateur shrink profession.
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  #228  
Old October 13th, 2010, 02:44 AM
Nobunaga
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Leo> Nobu, I'm surprised that you would recklessly describe Asperger's Syndrome as "serious mental health problems." You really need to do some more research into AS, as well as autism and other functional conditions.

Hi Leo,
Could you find where I claimed that Asperger's Syndrome was a serious mentel health problem? What I posted was just for starters. I am still looking for the 10 year old information.

In the years 1999 through 2000, I had a serious heart problem that required surgery. Since the surgery, my memory hasn't been as good as it was, but it is still pretty good for my age.

Gore did have some mental health problems, and I don't know what scale you are using for the word "serious"... Maybe my scale is different from yours.

But thanks anyway, now I am more motivated to look for that mental problems that Gore had. Of course, now if I find it, I now know what your reply will be... That it really wasn't "serious"... Right????
Nobu
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  #229  
Old October 13th, 2010, 02:59 AM
Nobunaga
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

OK Leo,
I found something, and I know it isn't going to be good enough for you, but it will have to do.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200405280001

Now, I can guess what you are going to post in rebuttal which will be: "Where is the doctor's report?" Even IF there was a doctor's report, it wouldn't be made public correct????

Now, I go along with all of the amateur shrinks on this site. I agree with their findings.

Again, I happen to agree with Gore on global warming, but he is so unpopular with the conservatives, that I wish it was someone else who represented the problem.

I think this is the extent of my searching on the Gore mental health subject. It looks like what I saw back when the comments were made, were opinions similar to mine, that Gore had serious mental health problems after losing the 2000 presidential election.

Thanks again for giving me the motivation to find and use a search engine that worked.
Nobu
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  #230  
Old October 13th, 2010, 01:08 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
Could you find where I claimed that Asperger's Syndrome was a serious mentel health problem?
In the first paragraph of this post of yours, you used those exact words.

Then in this post of yours, you offered up a list of people who might possibly be diagnosed with Asperger's to reinforce your claim.

I think you are right in assessing the diminishing quality of your own memory, however, since you can't even recall what you posted earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
OK Leo,
I found something, and I know it isn't going to be good enough for you, but it will have to do.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200405280001
My god, you ARE serious, aren't you? You are presenting the diagnoses of conservative pundits as medical fact to defend your argument?!?!?

You are truly lost in a land of fantasy, sir. I can't be your guide out of a hole so deep.
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  #231  
Old October 13th, 2010, 02:13 PM
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matapule matapule is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
I think you need to get out of the amateur shrink profession.
Leo, according to my daughter, who is hardly an amateur shrink, EVERYONE, including you and I and she, has "mental health issues." She says it is a CONTINUUM from minor to severe. It only becomes a "serious mental health issue" when it prevents someone from operating effectively in day to day life with a minimum of stress. Even people with "minor" mental health issuses can be "serious" if they cannot function properly in life. I have a relative on my wife's side with severe mental health issues, but they are able to function more or less normally, 90% of the time and then it becomes serious. Diagnosis and treatment of minor mental health issues is more difficult than diagnosis and treatment of severe mental health issues.

The Mental Health profession is very technical and complicated and to be a certified doctor requires as much education and training as an MD and years of experience to reach the highest levels of competence. Too many people look at the profession as "reading tea leaves", and they think they can do that too. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is better not to debate with these people and leave them in their own little dream world to deal with their own mental health issues.

K'den. Nuf said.
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  #232  
Old October 13th, 2010, 05:31 PM
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Exclamation Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Let's focus each post on a given idea's relevance to capital punishment and the death penalty, which is where this previously coherent thread started. If you want to stray into discussions of Nazis, 9-11, and Al Gore's beard, there are well-trodden threads for each. (Okay, maybe not the beard.) Thanks.
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  #233  
Old October 15th, 2010, 05:10 AM
Nobunaga
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
Let's focus each post on a given idea's relevance to capital punishment and the death penalty, which is where this previously coherent thread started. If you want to stray into discussions of Nazis, 9-11, and Al Gore's beard, there are well-trodden threads for each. (Okay, maybe not the beard.) Thanks.
Good idea.
Thanks... I think we all need to be reminded to try to stay on topic, but a discussion like this can, and will tend to drift a little. This time, it is a lot.
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  #234  
Old October 15th, 2010, 05:14 AM
Nobunaga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
In the first paragraph of this post of yours, you used those exact words.

Then in this post of yours, you offered up a list of people who might possibly be diagnosed with Asperger's to reinforce your claim.

I think you are right in assessing the diminishing quality of your own memory, however, since you can't even recall what you posted earlier.

My god, you ARE serious, aren't you? You are presenting the diagnoses of conservative pundits as medical fact to defend your argument?!?!?

You are truly lost in a land of fantasy, sir. I can't be your guide out of a hole so deep.
Ummm Leo,
To me, anyone running for President, who has an ailment, has a major ailment. In the case of a mental health problem, if anyone with a mental health problem became our president, it is a serious mental health problem.

Being that Gore in many opinions had mental health problems. I really don't think it was a minor thing. It might have been to you, but then we are all entitled to our own opinions. Maybe, to you, I made a mountain out of a molehill, but to me, I did not.
Nobu
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  #235  
Old October 15th, 2010, 05:17 AM
Nobunaga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matapule View Post
Leo, according to my daughter, who is hardly an amateur shrink, EVERYONE, including you and I and she, has "mental health issues." She says it is a CONTINUUM from minor to severe. It only becomes a "serious mental health issue" when it prevents someone from operating effectively in day to day life with a minimum of stress. Even people with "minor" mental health issuses can be "serious" if they cannot function properly in life. I have a relative on my wife's side with severe mental health issues, but they are able to function more or less normally, 90% of the time and then it becomes serious. Diagnosis and treatment of minor mental health issues is more difficult than diagnosis and treatment of severe mental health issues.

The Mental Health profession is very technical and complicated and to be a certified doctor requires as much education and training as an MD and years of experience to reach the highest levels of competence. Too many people look at the profession as "reading tea leaves", and they think they can do that too. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is better not to debate with these people and leave them in their own little dream world to deal with their own mental health issues.

K'den. Nuf said.
I agree with that. If you look at Dr Hare's checklist for sociopaths, of the 20 symptoms, I don't think anyone is exempt from having one or two of those symptoms. It is just that some have more than 10 of those symptoms.

Your daughter is an intelligent person.
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  #236  
Old October 15th, 2010, 03:16 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Nothing more in this post about beards or mental health or armchair psychology; actually staying on topic ---


The PBS series "Frontline" will be airing a program next week about the 2004 execution of Cameron Todd Willingham in Texas, and the possibility he - and others - were wrongly executed.

The show is titled "Death By Fire," and it airs on most PBS stations Tuesday night, October 19. (I believe PBS Hawai`i will air it at 9 pm that night, with repeats the next morning at 1 am, and again Friday 10/22 at 11 pm.)

The "Frontline: Death By Fire" website can be found here.
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  #237  
Old October 15th, 2010, 03:34 PM
Nobunaga
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Hi Leo,
When you have a murder by arson, it is very difficult to prove, so if there was a retrial, it is possible that the new trial could have ended in an acquittal.

However, it is given that neither we, nor the people who wrote the article sat on the jury that convicted Willingham. The jury saw all of the evidence and heard all of the testimony, then made their decision or verdict that Willingham was indeed guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This means that all 12 jurors did not believe Willingham, and believed the testimony and evidence that convicted him.

In other words, I would say that Willingham was most likely guilty, and in spite of his guilt, if given a new trial, he might have been acquitted. You must also remember that Willingham went through about 10 years of appeals. This means that all of the procedures in the trial were correct, and innocence or possible innocence, was not proven.

So, was Willingham innocent? I would say that it is remotely possible at best, but weighing everything out, I would say that he was most likely guilty.

Nobu
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  #238  
Old October 15th, 2010, 10:52 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

When bush was gov of Texas he and Alberto Gonzalez, AG of Texas and later of the US, used to get yucks laughing at clemency pleas from condemned prisoners. Now even if you 'Like' the death penalty, you should take it seriously enough to not find pleas for life amusing. That human disconnect is really what sets apart murderous tyrants who are fine slaughtering a million Poles or a million Kulaks or a million Iraqis from the rest of the human race. They wouldn't happen in history if there weren't loyal followers to give them the political power to do their evil. Read about the KGB executions, the guy in the basement with the leather apron on to keep blood and brain matter from soiling his clothing. Just a job. Go to work. What did you do today, honey, oh I shot 50 revisionists and 75 Trotskyites. Oh thats nice. How can people do these things? Just following orders. Somebody's got to do it? You really don't want to give the State the power to execute people, they so often get carried away with it, they develop a real taste for blood, and once you've started it, its very hard to stop. Play it safe. Keep the power of death out of the hands of politicians.
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  #239  
Old October 16th, 2010, 12:58 AM
Nobunaga
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Hi Kalalau,
Actually the governor of the state does not have the power of death. Only the courts can give a death sentence and order an execution. The governor's only power is life. He can stop an execution, or commute a death sentence to a lesser sentence or he can pardon the convicted.

When it comes to the other politicians, they can allow the courts to distribute death sentences, but they cannot order it. Mandatory death sentences for all crimess have been ruled unconstitutional.

So, the power of death is not given to the politicians. The power of death is given to the courts. It is common sense, to rid society of the worst criminals, and it makes no sense at all to keep them alive.
Nobu
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  #240  
Old October 16th, 2010, 07:21 AM
bjd392 bjd392 is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The death penalty has been around in America since its inception (minus a few lapses here and there). With the current system in place, I find it extremely unlikely (and laughable that it's even brought up) that a state executioner is going to go off and slaughter millions of people in the same manner.

Punishment of an individual after a criminal conviction is nowhere near the same as a mass genocide. Good gracious.
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  #241  
Old October 16th, 2010, 10:04 AM
treb treb is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

How about making our prisions a place for real rehibilitation. Currently they just hold people and make no effort to reform or re-educate anyone. I'm for capital punishment in cases where it's clearly in the best interest of society. But the rest of those in jail for other crimes get no training or structure at all. What's the real problem? Early school drop outs due to the lack of structure in our schools. Parents that are uneducated and don't know how to raise a child. We have become so politically correct that kids don't even get spanked anymore. They are not held responsible for their actions in early childhood and that carries over when they become adults. I can suggest how to fix the problem but their isn't enough space here to do so.
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  #242  
Old October 16th, 2010, 12:01 PM
Nobunaga
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjd392 View Post
The death penalty has been around in America since its inception (minus a few lapses here and there). With the current system in place, I find it extremely unlikely (and laughable that it's even brought up) that a state executioner is going to go off and slaughter millions of people in the same manner.

Punishment of an individual after a criminal conviction is nowhere near the same as a mass genocide. Good gracious.
I agree 100%. Very good post! And, as I posted, the government does not have the power to kill criminals. The courts has that power. The government, by law, has the power to stop executions, but does not have the power to enforce them.
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  #243  
Old October 16th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Nobunaga
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Quote:
Originally Posted by treb View Post
How about making our prisions a place for real rehibilitation. Currently they just hold people and make no effort to reform or re-educate anyone. I'm for capital punishment in cases where it's clearly in the best interest of society. But the rest of those in jail for other crimes get no training or structure at all. What's the real problem? Early school drop outs due to the lack of structure in our schools. Parents that are uneducated and don't know how to raise a child. We have become so politically correct that kids don't even get spanked anymore. They are not held responsible for their actions in early childhood and that carries over when they become adults. I can suggest how to fix the problem but their isn't enough space here to do so.
Hi Treb,
The prison systems does have rehab training for those who will be getting out, but if a prisoner is a "lifer" there is no sense in spending any money on his rehab.

Here in Hawaii, we have just a very few cases that should have been death penalty eligible. In the past 30 or so years, I would say perhaps about a half dozen. Since that half dozen all got a form of life sentences (which has no definitive meaning here) it would have been a lot cheaper to have them plea bargain out to get the same sentence without the cost of a trial.
Nobu
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  #244  
Old October 17th, 2010, 07:49 AM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

2 more incidents of the State going or being crazy and executing mass injustice against minorities come to mind in addition to the Japanese internment. During the Depression there was a mass deportation of people of Mexican ancestry, many of whom had lived in the US and been US citizens for generations, some couldn't even speak Spanish and there they were, loaded onto trains and deported to Mexico.

Several years ago the LA Times had a series on corruption in the LAPD. A cop had been caught selling drugs out of an evidence locker, for immunity from prosecution, he talked about police corruption and the story got bigger and bigger until it related tortures and false imprisonment carried out since the 19th century against Blacks and Hispanics. It is ridiculous to think some innocent people weren't murdered under color of law. The tortures used by the LAPD and prison authorities were gruesome, nearly drowning victims in sewage for example. Our tyrant in Chile, Pinochet, had that done to some of his victims. Kind of like water boarding except the water wasn't something you'd even put on your garden.

The point is, power does corrupt. It really does. How can you possibly trust a justice system with a record as brutal and unfair as ours to be either right or fair? Its funny how conservatives always scream Get The Gvt. Off Our Backs but that only refers to laws to keep companies from poisoning our water, food, and air, or to keep Wall St. from looting everything in sight. When it comes to forcing rape victims to carry the rapists' fetuses to term, or executing people, or even dictating what consenting adults do in their own bedrooms, conservatives are all for massive intrusive Big Gvt. power.
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  #245  
Old October 17th, 2010, 11:49 AM
Nobunaga
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Kalalau> 2 more incidents of the State going or being crazy and executing mass injustice against minorities come to mind in addition to the Japanese internment. During the Depression there was a mass deportation of people of Mexican ancestry, many of whom had lived in the US and been US citizens for generations, some couldn't even speak Spanish and there they were, loaded onto trains and deported to Mexico

Hi Kalalau,
I do recall the internment of the Japanese during World War II, and I learned that there was an internment camp here in Hawaii at Sand Island. I learned this just a few years ago. However, I hav not heard of any mass deportation of US citizens. I hope you have some type of source for that?

On the possible execution of an innocent, or innocents, it is highly possible. As you pointed out, there was a lot of racial discrimination in this country, and it was about as bad as it could get even as recent as 50 years ago.

Still, I stand by my claim that in the past 100 years, there is not one proven wrongful execution. No one has ever been convicted, sentenced to death, and executed by any state in this country, and posthumously proven inncent, and so far, all of the suspected cases that were researched was proven to be rightful, or could not be proven either way.

Also Still, I think what you are pointing at, is the possible wrongful conviction, which in many cases, have been proven. As you know, when you have a wrongful conviction that is proven years after the error, the wrongfully convicted is wrongfully punished. Some have spent decades in prison. Just as we cannot give a person's life back to him after we execute him, we cannot take back the years of wrongful punishment. So, is your proposal that we should not punish anyone for crimes?
Nobu
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  #246  
Old October 17th, 2010, 12:48 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Google Mass deportation of Mexicans during the Depression, there are too many articles to count. If it could happen once, it could happen again. If it could happen to people of Mexican ancestry, it can happen to anybody. Jews? Islam? Asians have had a history of unpopularity, nothing like the lynching of Blacks but with China now controlling our economy anything is possible. Even now you have LOTS of people expressing some pretty cruel, irrational opinions against Latinos. Except when they want somebody to build a retaining wall or mow the yard or take out some trees, etc.
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  #247  
Old October 17th, 2010, 10:39 PM
Nobunaga
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This shows my ignorance on the subject. I didn't know such an act was possible even 100 years ago.

What I did know, is the Organic Act made anyone residing in the Territory prior to 1899 of Hawaii automatically a US citizen. My grandfather came here before 1899, and was automatically a US citizen, while my grandmother came from Korea in the early 1900s and had to apply for her citizenship.

The internment of the Japanese during World War II was basically an illegal act even then. I don't think this country can do that today though.
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  #248  
Old October 18th, 2010, 08:02 AM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Its a funny thing about history. The bad stuff so often gets ignored or buried or deliberately erased. I was as stunned as anybody to learn of the mass deportations of Mexicans. That included some families of Mexican ancestry going back to when Mexico owned the whole southwest part of the country. Look even now at how people try to alter history--the people who deny or try to minimize The Holocaust. Plus people on different sides get totally different views of the same event. For example the US gives Ronald Reagan a huge amount of credit for bringing down Communism, yet the Russian people believe it was they who accomplished it and see Reagan as just a footnote.
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  #249  
Old October 18th, 2010, 12:50 PM
Nobunaga
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On the Holocaust, I would encourage anyone who is in Washington DC to visit the Holocaust Museum. While it is depressing to see the pictures and read about the atrocities, it should never be forgotten. There should be an equivalent museum for slavery in the USA.

One thing that was mentioned to me about the Japanese, is the possibility that the Imperial Army had some cannibals. This was very difficult for me to believe, because the Japanese had mostly a vegetarian diet, but after doing some research, I found that it is very possible, especially in the Pacific islands.

I have a Vietnamese friend, who escaped by boat in the 1980's, She claimed that they killed and ate one of the members of the boat in desperation to survive. Not only that, but they were out of fuel, so they had to eat the human flesh raw, and they were given a ration of a jigger of water a day.
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  #250  
Old October 18th, 2010, 06:54 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
Let's focus each post on a given idea's relevance to capital punishment and the death penalty, which is where this previously coherent thread started. If you want to stray into discussions of Nazis, 9-11, and Al Gore's beard, there are well-trodden threads for each. (Okay, maybe not the beard.) Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
Good idea.
Thanks... I think we all need to be reminded to try to stay on topic, but a discussion like this can, and will tend to drift a little. This time, it is a lot.
We're going way off-topic again. Let's take admin's advice before he decides we can't, and shuts down the thread. Death penalty & capital punishment - not the Holocaust, Mexican deportations, cannibalism, internment of Japanese-Americans, mental health, Dr. Hare, etc.
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