Recycling and the economy

[tutusue]

Recycling goes from boom to bust as economy stalls

The trickle down effect of this economy never ceases to amaze me. Boom to bust happened in a very short amount of time. This is an interesting read.

[Nords]

Re: Recycling and the economy

Not a very good year to be invested in commodities or bulk shippers.

I wonder when we're going to start seeing headlines about problems with the HI-5 program...

[timkona]

Re: Recycling and the economy

We don't really have recycling in Hawaii. Remember, recycling is a loop. We are missing a critical component of the loop......Manufacturing & Smelting.

Imagine the outcry from self proclaimed "environmentalists" if Alcoa, Corning, or Weyerhauser tried to construct a big, stinky, ugly, smoky, electricity using, job creating, factory for melting down the recyclables into usable billets.

I think in Maui, they make benches from plastic. But that's all I know of.

This is a classic example of cognitive dissonance.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Recycling and the economy

There is virtually no end product availability generated here in Hawaii.
Other than the benches Tim mentions, and some glassphalt, we have not been anywhere near the vangard in promoting island industries for our useable wastes. And I doubt we can even hope for this to occure until we elect local leaders that have visionary ecologic mindsets.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Recycling and the economy

Old cars and other scrap steel used to be turned into rebar at Hawaii Western Steel. But as environmental laws became stricter (as they should), they weren't able to deal properly with the toxic wastes the facility generated, and had to shut down.

It's the same way with many other industrial recycling processes. With limited land and the high price of energy, it's more practical to have these materials collected here and shipped elsewhere for processing.

So as far as a recycling loop is concerned, there is a loop since the materials collected are eventually reused. However, that loop has to extend beyond the horizon to a distant shore.

[timkona]

Re: Recycling and the economy

Too funny.

We used to recycle steel, but environmentalists shut it down. Is that TRUE?

ROTFLMFAO Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!!

You cannot possibly claim intellect AND liberalism at the same time. We will never have recycling in Hawaii. Environmentalists won't stand for it. And those basic manufacturing jobs that might be created would get some folks off the dole. Oh NO !!!!

ahhhhhaahhaa haaahaahaaaha heehehee hohoheehassfgihrfjhiugjfdgheringbue


So Glurg

[Random]

Re: Recycling and the economy

Too funny.

We used to recycle steel, but environmentalists shut it down. Is that TRUE?

ROTFLMFAO Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!!

Trust me. You can NEVER please them.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Recycling and the economy

You cannot possibly claim intellect AND liberalism at the same time. We will never have recycling in Hawaii. Environmentalists won't stand for it.

A silly pair of statements and far from the complete picture.
Hopefully, once we get LingleCo out of the way and somebody worth a frick in command we'll get moving on the needed matters to solve these problems.

[timkona]

Re: Recycling and the economy

The bluntest truths are often perceived as silly by those who don't believe them to be true.

The caterwalling would be unprecedented were anybody to propose ACTUAL recycling to occur anywhere in Hawaii.

Aluminum Smelter - Glass Factory - Paper Pulping. Not likely.

Shoot, they are trying for paper pulping on the Hamakua Coast, and the Politics of NO! simply won't shut up.

And I can guarantee you that I am doing my part to subsidize aluminum importing, and provide raw materials for a smelter.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Recycling and the economy

The problem with steel production was what to do with the toxic wastes the smelter produced. Lead and cadmium from "baghouse dust" were being illegally dumped at a landfill. It was listed as among the EPA Superfund Cleanup sites in Hawaii.

A long list of requirements needed to be met regarding cleanup and making sure the dust didn't get blown into the surrounding community. Imagine that stuff getting into your house. Particularly cadmium: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_poisoning

It was a great way to get get rid of old cars and scrap steel. But without proper control for toxic waste, it's no surprise people say "not in my backyard". Look at what steel mills did to areas around Pittsburgh.

The American Lung Association declared Pittsburgh as having some of the worst air pollution in the nation. And that's because of the industries in the area. http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...56265920080501

Other industrial processes, including aluminum smelting and paper pulping, can create a huge mess that's not easily contained.

So recycling doesn't come without its costs. I'm all in favor of recycling. My green wastes go right back into what little yard we have. I turn in cans and bottles. But I'm also in favor of keeping the community safe from toxic wastes.

[Walkoff Balk]

Re: Recycling and the economy

There are still things you can recycled as long as you don't mind having seconds.

[timkona]

Re: Recycling and the economy

I want to use steel, but I don't want it manufactured near me.

I want convenient drinks in a can, that is made somewhere else.

I want paper for my printer, but not the bleaching process. Or the empty toners.

You are either FOR or AGAINST recycling, and ALL its' processes. There is no middle ground. If you are not willing to have the factory near you, then you are clearly AGAINST the process. Of course, in the modern time, the process is controlled by the EPA, and rules they deem safe.

I'm gonna coin a new term here....

Fair Weather Liberalism.

Lucy, chugotsum splainin tudu.

[Random]

Re: Recycling and the economy

The American Lung Association declared Pittsburgh as having some of the worst air pollution in the nation. And that's because of the industries in the area. http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...56265920080501

Other industrial processes, including aluminum smelting and paper pulping, can create a huge mess that's not easily contained.

So recycling doesn't come without its costs. I'm all in favor of recycling. My green wastes go right back into what little yard we have. I turn in cans and bottles. But I'm also in favor of keeping the community safe from toxic wastes.

And where do the aluminum cans go, if you can't smelt them in bulk?

So, do we ban steel in Hawaii?

[Composite 2992]

Re: Recycling and the economy

"You are either FOR or AGAINST recycling, and ALL its' processes. There is no middle ground. If you are not willing to have the factory near you, then you are clearly AGAINST the process. Of course, in the modern time, the process is controlled by the EPA, and rules they deem safe."

That's a self-limiting claim. This is not a black and white issue. Everything we do has a cost. And there are a lot of factors to consider.

I never said it can't be done here.

I'm saying that if it's done here it has to be done safely. And it also has to make economic sense.

Are you are willing to suffer from cadmium and lead poisoning, breathe badly polluted air, and be exposed to a lot of other toxic wastes? Are you willing to live in the middle of a landfill, in a badly maintained sewage treatment plant or be the downwind neighbor of a noisy and dusty rock crushing plant?

No one else does, either.

So wouldn't you say that protecting ourselves and the environment should be part of the solution? There are ways to contain the pollution and minimize or eliminate the hazards. But they're not cheap, especially for manufacturing processes that are notoriously toxic.

For example, I used to recycle lead to cast fishing weights, dive weights and bullets. But I quit doing that because the lead oxide had to be dumped somewhere, and I wasn't willing to toss it into my yard or throw it into the trash. And I wasn't willing to contaminate my house, either.

What I'm also saying is that it might not be economically viable to do it here in Hawaii. We might not be producing enough of certain types of scrap material here to make recycling as cost-effective as it could be, compared to a larger-scale process done on a national level.

For example, we could melt the aluminum here. But what happens after that? You still have to process that aluminum into a variety of products including extrusions, cans, castings, etc. That kind of manufacturing is already being done in huge facilities on the Mainland to produce a wide variety of aluminum alloys in sheets, bars, tubes, rods, foil, and so on. We would have to build factories for that. Could we do it locally and still be competitive? These are the sorts of manufacturing that benefit from the economy of scale.

Lots of other raw materials are required to process that aluminum. Wouldn't it make sense to send the crushed cans to the Mainland where the scrap can be consolidated with other scrap, then processed by plants which can get raw materials at a much lower cost than we could? They can get materials by rail. We have to get it via ship. And that's a LOT more expensive than rail.

Same with steel. The cost of producing steel here would be much higher when you factor in having to ship in equipment, coke, ship out slag, produce energy to run the furnaces, ship in parts and additional alloy material, and so on. Everything is cheaper in the Mainland including energy.

If it were economically worthwhile to do all this, someone would be doing it by now instead of shipping the stuff elsewhere.

As for recycling paper, what sort of paper goods would we create with all the scrap? What markets would be available? And would it be cost competitive with paper products -- new or recycled -- from other sources? Or does it make more sense to ship this material elsewhere to a larger facility that already exists?

So I'm saying recycling should be done but it has to make good sense. If we're poisoning ourselves in the process, there's no way anyone can claim we're being "green".

[Random]

Re: Recycling and the economy

For example, we could melt the aluminum here. But what happens after that? You still have to process that aluminum into a variety of products including extrusions, cans, castings, etc. That kind of manufacturing is already being done in huge facilities on the Mainland to produce a wide variety of aluminum alloys in sheets, bars, tubes, rods, foil, and so on. We would have to build factories for that. Could we do it locally and still be competitive? These are the sorts of manufacturing that benefit from the economy of scale.

Lots of other raw materials are required to process that aluminum. Wouldn't it make sense to send the crushed cans to the Mainland where the scrap can be consolidated with other scrap, then processed by plants which can get raw materials at a much lower cost than we could? They can get materials by rail. We have to get it via ship. And that's a LOT more expensive than rail.

Damn right. So, who's picking up the tab to ship my crushed aluminum cans to the mainland? Does the cost of recycling crushed soda or beer cans outweigh the expense of shipping them since it cannot be reprocessed locally for our own sustainable use?