Statehood Day Holiday

[damontucker]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Are there any royal lineage descendants?

Who are they? Why don't we know who they are? I would love to know. Have they tired of the fight? Lord knows it must be a little tough to carry the weight of a monarchy on your shoulders. I'm sure it's a blessing & a curse.

Seems to me that the sovereignty movement would have a little more oomph if the royal family was somehow leading the fight. Or at least publicly promoted and acknowledged.

For once, I'm neither being logical nor argumentative. I hope I get a good answer.

It's curious that old buildings used for government function can somehow be separated by the mere fact of who the leaders are. Every society has viewed their leaders with a certain amount of distrust. Does it matter if it's a king or a governor or a dictator? Takes tax money to build them no matter how you slice it.

Takes tax money to build them no matter how you slice it.

I'll take a stab at this and see how quickly I get shot down... however, I don't think the palace was built with tax dollars!

[kamuelakea]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Are there any royal lineage descendants?

Who are they? Why don't we know who they are? I would love to know. Have they tired of the fight? Lord knows it must be a little tough to carry the weight of a monarchy on your shoulders. I'm sure it's a blessing & a curse.

Good question my friend. I'm no expert but there aren't many.

I don't believe there are any direct decendants of Liliuokalani, Kalakaua, Lunalilo or Kamehameha V. Those are the last 4 monarchs. There are cousins but no direct decendants.

That does make it more difficult to argue against the overthrow of a monarchy. It would be easier if there was a decendant of Liliuokalani leading the fight. But I think most Hawaiians want self rule, not just a return to monarchy. Kalakaua was ELECTED as per the CONSTITUTION of Hawaii at the time. They were already moving toward democracy even in the 1800s.

Even the Kawananakoas are NOT Kamehamehas. Deyz Couzinz.

Hawaiians deserve their own self rule not the self rule dominated by Asian and Haole immigrants.

[Linkmeister]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

I'll take a stab at this and see how quickly I get shot down... however, I don't think the palace was built with tax dollars!

Depends on how you define tax. If it was built by laborers for royalty, were they paid? If not, then the labor itself was a tax. If they were paid by the monarchy, how did it acquire the money to pay them?

Remember that one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation was that the Roman Catholic Church was selling indulgences. All bureaucracies gotta get money somehow.

[kamuelakea]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

I'll take a stab at this and see how quickly I get shot down... however, I don't think the palace was built with tax dollars!

I don't know the answer. But I did ask one of the guides on a tour of Iolani Palace once. She ignored me.

Kalakaua was criticized for the cost of Iolani palace. (by Sugar Haoles for what that's worth). But he got the money from somewhere. Either selling land or leasing land. That's about it for revenue sources in Kalakaua's time.

It was built with "public" dollars.

[timkona]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

If Hawaiians want self rule, then it's like a revolution against a monarchy.
If the monarchy was toppled, why the need for a sovereign?
I never realized that Hawaiians don't want a return to a monarchy. Gotta chew on that one a little.

How come there are not more Hawaiians in elected office? Would seem to me that they could get votes easy. Hawaiians would have self-rule if more Hawaiians were in charge at the elected positions of this state.

Wow, the further I think about this, the more questions I come up with. I can't possibly be the first person to wonder about some of this stuff.

It's almost as if the wheels of monarchical revolution have been rolling so slowly that it has taken over 100 years to turn just a little.

[damontucker]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

If Hawaiians want self rule, then it's like a revolution against a monarchy.
If the monarchy was toppled, why the need for a sovereign?
I never realized that Hawaiians don't want a return to a monarchy. Gotta chew on that one a little.

How come there are not more Hawaiians in elected office? Would seem to me that they could get votes easy. Hawaiians would have self-rule if more Hawaiians were in charge at the elected positions of this state.

Wow, the further I think about this, the more questions I come up with. I can't possibly be the first person to wonder about some of this stuff.

It's almost as if the wheels of monarchical revolution have been rolling so slowly that it has taken over 100 years to turn just a little.

Timk -

Hawaiians believed in family lineage ... not the "voting" system.

This might have some sort of link to why we have such a low voter turnout each year?

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

I don't know the answer. But I did ask one of the guides on a tour of Iolani Palace once. She ignored me.

Kalakaua was criticized for the cost of Iolani palace. (by Sugar Haoles for what that's worth). But he got the money from somewhere. Either selling land or leasing land. That's about it for revenue sources in Kalakaua's time.

It was built with "public" dollars.

`Iolani Palace was built using approx. $365,000, 3 architects and over a period of about 5 years. The funds were government funds - there was no sale of land involved. `Iolani Palace was built to replace the original building which was built of wood and was termite eaten to the point of not being worth being renovated. The new Palace was built of stone. If someone wants measurements or building mediums, I can probably find that out.

To bad you weren't on one of MY tours - I wouldn't have ignored you. She probably didn't know the answer.

[Palolo Joe]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

`Iolani Palace was built using approx. $365,000, 3 architects and over a period of about 5 years. The funds were government funds - there was no sale of land involved. `Iolani Palace was built to replace the original building which was built of wood and was termite eaten to the point of not being worth being renovated.

Not saying you're lying, but is there anything online to back up your statement?

The fact that you work(ed) as a docent at the Palace makes the info credible... to me, at least. I'm just curious.

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Timk -

Hawaiians believed in family lineage ... not the "voting" system.

This might have some sort of link to why we have such a low voter turnout each year?

The Hawaii legislature prior to the overthrow in 1893 was made up of 2 houses - one elected by the general population. The other, the House of Nobles was appointed by the monarch. This was according to the constitution of 1864. The "Bayonet Constitution" of 1887 (which was just that - signed at the point of a bayonet) negated the previous constitution but was never ratified therefore it was never made legal or legitimate. The 1887 non-ratified constitution took power away from the monarch and gave it to the cabinet. The monarch was allowed to appoint cabinet members but could not dismiss them. Hence, the lack of real power. At the time of the overthrow, Hawaii had been a constitutional monarchy since 1843!

ok - next question.......................

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

It's funny how people's attitudes change over time but I don't believe the knowledge of the overthrow caused this change. Don't tell me this wasn't known back in the 60's and 70's. It is and was written about in all the history books I read in social studies when I was a kid. There was no propaganda campaign to cover it up. Something else caused this change. Just in the recent past, the Kanaka Maoli were not so nationalistic. Now some of them sound like Heinreich Himmler with his nazi creed of blood and soil. Himmler believed the German people had a deep spiritual connection to the land that only they could understand.

I do believe with the uncoverings of such things as the petitions that were against annexation and the public testimony of many others that spoke out against what the mainstream media wanted us to believe (Thurston-Twiggs) over the decades helped drive a new awareness among Hawaiians that the fight isn't over yet. With activism becoming the popular way of getting information to the masses, and a sense of cultural pride swelling among many people across the United States, a greater sense of urgency and appeal to seek recognition and sovereignty became apparent over what was a latent protest amongst long time activists.

With a ground swelling of nationalistic activism came more testimony from Hawaii's elders speaking out with less fear of being outcast because of what they knew and held in secret all these years. A younger generation of Hawaiians felt the oppression on their great grandparents as an insult on their heritage and with a "no fear" attitude took on a greater more "in your face" attitude amongst those opposing the rights of all Kanaka Maoli.

And this is what I feel re-lit the fire under the right for self-governance to an inferno that can explode with intense feelings at rallies such as the Admissions Day event by Sam Slom.

Oh and the bus of Kalani High school kids...yeah I know they're not as innocent as I take them to be. But still yet, wrong people to vent at.

On a different side, one of my boys is a senior at KSBE in Keaau here on the Big Island. all of my other kids got the day off and my wife was a bit surprised that Austin still had to go to school. She asked in surprise, "what you have school today?" Austin replied, "Um well I don't think this Hawaiian school would want to celebrate something like Admissions Day"

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Not saying you're lying, but is there anything online to back up your statement?

The fact that you work(ed) as a docent at the Palace makes the info credible... to me, at least. I'm just curious.

uh, common knowledge among historians, books written about the monarchy..................Jim Bartels, who was the foremost historian involved with the Palace. Are those good enough sources for you? I'm sure I could come up with more if pressed. Not everything is on the internet - you might actually have to do some real research - like at the archives or library.

[Palolo Joe]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

uh, common knowledge among historians, books written about the monarchy..................Jim Bartels, who was the foremost historian involved with the Palace. Are those good enough sources for you? I'm sure I could come up with more if pressed. Not everything is on the internet - you might actually have to do some real research - like at the archives or library.

So much for trying to be nice.

Oooh. REAL research. As compared to what, fake research?

Go ahead and name drop. I'm well aware of who Mr. Bartels is and his prominence in the historical community. Big whoop. You're not amongst historians here... you're conversing with a bunch of random people on the Internet.

I didn't say you were bullshitting. I didn't imply that everything about everything is posted up on the Internet. I simply asked if, in this particular instance, there was anything online to back up what you wrote. Simple, polite question.

And people complain that I'm too rude in my posts...

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

So much for trying to be nice.

Oooh. REAL research. As compared to what, fake research?

Go ahead and name drop. I'm well-aware of who Mr. Bartels is and his prominence in the historical community. Big whoop. You're not amongst historians here... you're conversing with a bunch of random people on the Internet.

I didn't say you were bullshitting. I didn't imply that everything about everything is posted up on the Internet. I simply asked if, in this particular instance, there was anything online to back up what you wrote. Simple, polite question.

And people complain that I'm too rude in my posts...

My reply was not intended to be sarcastic - sorry you took it that way. and I didn't take personally anything you asked. It's late, I'm tired & I simply answered as best I knew how. and I wasn't "name dropping" - Jim happens to have been a very good friend of mine. I was very fortunate to have been able to sit with him & learn during my Palace training and for many years after. As for research - mine has involved much reading and discussions with people who know much more than I and are willing to share their information. Again, I offer my apology to you for the misunderstanding. I'm a very humble person and readily admit there is much I will never know about Hawaiian history. but, my friends keep trying to educate me & I keep trying to just be a sponge. I'm very blessed to be surrounded by historians - either self-taught or academicans.

[Palolo Joe]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

I'm very blessed to be surrounded by historians - either self-taught or academicans.

You're very lucky in that respect. Not all of us are surrounded by historians.

I appreciate your efforts to share your knowledge with the rest of us. I just didn't expect that kind of response after I tried to make it clear I wasn't being a wiseass.

Maybe I need to go to bed too.

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

and while you didn't actually call me a liar - it was implied/inferred in your posting. darn, I never can keep those two words straight. Anyway, what was implied/inferred in my posting was that sometimes you can't get all your answers by "googling" something.

No hard feelings though & you weren't rude at all in your response to me.