20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

[GnosticWarrior]

I think this program originally aired on 1/13/06. I just stumpled upon it on youtube, and wanted to post a link to anyone else who missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA

Private or charter schools are better bets. Don't think we have school vouchers in Hawaii. But maybe after parents watch this video, they might demand it from our politicians. Its obvious to me that creating more competition for school choice is good, and unions are bad.

[scrivener]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

The voucher issue is a complicated one, and I have mixed feelings about it. If I had to choose a side today, I'd come down against them.

I totally understand the reasoning behind vouchers. My parents spent a lot of money they didn't really have (I was a scholarship student) to send me to a private school. If everyone had the option to choose a school, a lot of good things would happen.

However, the voucher system unfairly and unintentionally favors those students whose parents are better off. You can give parents in rural areas the right to send their kids to any Oahu school, but which of them will be able to do so, even if transportation is provided? Many of them have to get home right after school to take care of siblings, some of them have to get to jobs, and a lot of them don't even have homes: getting to school in Kaimuki from Nanakuli and getting back every day is impractical.

So the kids who can go elsewhere will, and the kids who can't won't, and who will be left at their schools?

[Da Rolling Eye]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Up Central way, parents are scrambling to get Geographic Exemptions so their kids can get into some of the better public schools in the area, including us. We tried, but there are long waiting lists for schools like Mililani Ike and Mauka.

The present school, our daughter attends, can't "afford" certain programs or teachers for gifted and talented students while other schools can offer almost year round GT curriculums and even language classes. Most of her present school's resources gets routed to the Spec Ed program because of the infamous Felix Decree and the school is ranked in the bottom 25 percentile of "graded" schools. She'd be even worse off going to her "assigned" school as the teachers spend most of their time and effort with the high percentage of ESL students. Same result. The other students get left by the way side.

For these reasons we chose to get her enrolled in one of the private schools up this side. A voucher system would be great, but agree with Scriv about the system favoring the more affluent. They have to come up with a way to limit it to families who's incomes don't exceed a certain amount. Like how they passed a bill to give tax refunds to families with incomes not exceeding $50,000.

As parents of a child in one of the worse schools, we can say how screwed up the Hawaii ed system really is. There are large disparaties between the public schools' curriculums where there really shouldn't be. Nothing is standardized and, in the "poorer" schools, Spec Ed is the priority. Damn, there's even talk about how some of the town public primary schools are feeders for places like Punahou and St. Louis. What's wrong with that picture?

We're not rich by any means and are going to have to apply for financial aid at whichever school she gets accepted for, one out of 2 so far. My parents volunteered to help with our daughter's tuition and we could use that voucher program as could many other families that we've met. We're trying to give our daughter the best chance at a good education, which she will never get at her present school and the situation gives us little choice in the matter.

Someone once told us that our child's education, in a public school, is what we make of it. Well, that don't work when HER school can't AFFORD to give her a chance to exploit her noted potential.

[scrivener]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

You bring up a good point that clouds the issue further. GT education, which is ideally considered "special education" is just about never treated that way by institutions, because the belief is that the "smart kids figure out a way to do okay." Totally not true, of course, as evidenced by the existence of my own school (dyslexic students and gifted students often have very similar needs; hence the dual mission of my school).

To expect that every school in the state can provide adequately for gifted children is unreasonable. Every school can't have a band like Pearl City's, a drama program like Castle's, a video program like Waianae's, or a football program like Kahuku's (note that two of these schools I list are rural!). Exemptions for students who want to participate in programs like these should be given, and to those lists should be added other realms, such as gifted programs, science programs, and vocational programs.

I think this can be done without going to a voucher system. How? Beats me. That's why I still haven't really chosen a side.

If your daughter is gifted and if your school doesn't have a gifted program, the state NEEDS to get her somewhere else. Gifted children are at risk for not completing school if not given programs that serve their needs.

[blueyecicle]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

I watched this when it aired, Oh how I do love seeing different sides from John Stossel, he brings up some very valid points. Makes me appreciative that i am able to homeschool.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

You bring up a good point that clouds the issue further. GT education, which is ideally considered "special education" is just about never treated that way by institutions, because the belief is that the "smart kids figure out a way to do okay." Totally not true, of course, as evidenced by the existence of my own school (dyslexic students and gifted students often have very similar needs; hence the dual mission of my school).
...
If your daughter is gifted and if your school doesn't have a gifted program, the state NEEDS to get her somewhere else. Gifted children are at risk for not completing school if not given programs that serve their needs.

I attended a small public elementary school in a rural area. There were 25-30 kids per grade. There was always a dunce table, which in my grade was filled up with rascal boys (two of whom dropped out of school in 7th grade and have spent the majority of their adult lives in/out of prison) and me, the girl who just Would. Not. Shut. Up.

By the time my school fed into the larger intermediate and high schools, I had an opportunity to find those academic/social challenges, for our community did not have a bunch of private schools to siphon off the higher end of the bell curve. Our public high schools retained the whole bell, and they were buff. Something for everyone was to be found. Drama, all sports, ac-dec, chess club, "Mechanical Masters" (for the drawer-dudes), oil painting, band, Kiwanettes, 4H. We had it all.

Of course, cracks existed. But there is something wonderful about the rural situations like these.

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Okay, what most people agree on is that on an international comparison, U.S. eight graders are not scoring too well in Math and Science. People also focus on this indicator bcs in takes out language and cultural barriers. So if our education system stays the same, American’s are becoming less competitive to our counterparts. I also believe that democracy can only work with an educated society.

What was also surprising to me is that Melinda Gates, has no official stance regarding vouchers or charter schools. She says:

I think it's more important to get the American people demanding of the presidential candidates that they address these issues. The thing that we are talking about is bigger than any specific one piece of bill or one legislation; it's having Americans rise up and say, 'Let's collectively do something about it; let's debate the issues; let's come up with the right solutions.' We're not trying to dictate a solution. We don't think we have all of the answers, but we think the American people should make sure that their candidates lead on this issue and come up with the right answers.

As for my two cents on how to improve the Education of Americans as a whole, I believe in freedom of choice. I think American values means that everyone is willing and expected to pay their own fair share of goods and services they consume. But, we are also generous enough to provide assistance to those who may need help. I would like the parents to decide whether it’s public school, charter school, private school, or home schooling that’s best. Instead of vouchers, I would like to see a dollar for dollar deduction from people’s AGI for qualified educational expenses. I would follow the same AGI limits that are used for IRA contributions. $99,000 for single filers and $156,000 for joint filers. No person making less than these AGI limits should have to pay taxes on the money spent for qualified educational expenses. Also some sort of formula for home schooled children needs to be worked out. A parent like blueyecicle should be able to have some sort of deduction too, based on her time and resources spent at home. I believe a tax deduction like this could be implemented starting on the state level, federal buy in would be the final goal. Why should a parent pay taxes to finance a govt. monopoly on education and then also have to spend additional money on private school tuition?

I personally believe that majority of the schools should be private non-profits. And then public schools should be geared towards those students that are being neglected by the private schools. Yes, these rural areas that scriv talks about, should be serviced by govt. Govt.’s role is to provide services that are inadequate or not feasible to be addressed by the private sector. However, govt. has no business to try and maintain a monopoly on a service where the private could do a better job. Imagine getting better results with the same money being spent overall? That’s what we are after. I have faith that the private sector can do it better than govt. can.

[Da Rolling Eye]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

You bring up a good point that clouds the issue further. GT education, which is ideally considered "special education" is just about never treated that way by institutions, because the belief is that the "smart kids figure out a way to do okay." Totally not true, of course, as evidenced by the existence of my own school (dyslexic students and gifted students often have very similar needs; hence the dual mission of my school).

To expect that every school in the state can provide adequately for gifted children is unreasonable. Every school can't have a band like Pearl City's, a drama program like Castle's, a video program like Waianae's, or a football program like Kahuku's (note that two of these schools I list are rural!). Exemptions for students who want to participate in programs like these should be given, and to those lists should be added other realms, such as gifted programs, science programs, and vocational programs.

I think this can be done without going to a voucher system. How? Beats me. That's why I still haven't really chosen a side.

If your daughter is gifted and if your school doesn't have a gifted program, the state NEEDS to get her somewhere else. Gifted children are at risk for not completing school if not given programs that serve their needs.

Thanks Scriv. Just had a nice conversation with my wife, who also works at my daughter's school. Brought up a lot of stuff we touched on and the whole situation with spec ed and all that's involved is simply way too complicated to find any solutions to any of our problems.

As for the problem on a national level, if it's fair to use observations from our own schools, parents play a big role in our children's education. Nowdays, most parents are way too busy, preoccupied or just plain don't care to be involved in our children's educational welfare. They put the sole responsibility of their education on the school system, which is actually only part of their educational process. Duh.

Parents have to be proactive if they want their kids to benefit. In our case, the public school system can't provide us with what our WHOLE family needs to help our daughter get the most of what she's provided and we can't expect her school or the state to make an exception in helping us get it. She's bright, but not a prodigy. For our specific needs, we feel a private school will help. It'll be costly, but the benefits outweigh the price.

Oh yeah, if not a voucher a tax credit might be nice.

[Miulang]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

As for the problem on a national level, if it's fair to use observations from our own schools, parents play a big role in our children's education. Nowdays, most parents are way too busy, preoccupied or just plain don't care to be involved in our children's educational welfare. They put the sole responsibility of their education on the school system, which is actually only part of their educational process. Duh.

Parents have to be proactive if they want their kids to benefit. In our case, the public school system can't provide us with what our WHOLE family needs to help our daughter get the most of what she's provided and we can't expect her school or the state to make an exception in helping us get it. She's bright, but not a prodigy. For our specific needs, we feel a private school will help. It'll be costly, but the benefits outweigh the price.

Oh yeah, if not a voucher a tax credit might be nice.

You hit the nail on the head, DRE. It takes a whole community (parents especially) to get kids educated. And even though I don't have kids in school, I was thinking that many Hawai'i parents don't have time to spend with their kids in the way they want and need to because they're too busy trying to keep a roof over the family's head. Those who have the luxury of time to be able to read to their kids, or help them with their homework are the ones whose kids tend to do better academically.

In loco parentis places a huge burden on teachers and schools and doesn't work if parents, who are supposed to be a child's primary role models, are not accessible to the kids or the teachers. So don't expect your kids to be pillars of the community if you don't pay attention to them at home or don't exemplify the kind of behavior you want them to have when in public. (They will do as you do and say what they hear you say, not what their teachers say).

Miulang

[scrivener]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

I disagree with the tax credit thing. We all pay for public education because it is an important, defining value of ours. If you opt to send your kids to a private school, or if you opt to homeschool your kids, you should not get to take some of that tax money out of the pot. Those other schooling options are not forced upon you; you choose them. If your employer offers a certain benefit that you opt out of, you don't get to put some of the cost of your waived benefit into your paycheck. Usually.

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

I disagree with the tax credit thing. We all pay for public education because it is an important, defining value of ours. If you opt to send your kids to a private school, or if you opt to homeschool your kids, you should not get to take some of that tax money out of the pot. Those other schooling options are not forced upon you; you choose them.

Well, let me clarify that I am not for any tax credit. That would be too much. I was for a tax deduction. However, the tax deduction that I mentioned in my previous post would not be close in matching how much a voucher would pay for a child and not the correct formula that I was thinking of. So scratch that idea.

After looking at vouchers and tax deductions, I realized its complicated due to the sources of tax revenue. So let's drop the labels for a minute. Okay, I'm single with no kids and gross $40K in income and pay $2700 in state taxes for 2006. A portion of that $2700 goes to DOE. I think it might be like 38%?, so $1026 of money that I worked for goes to pay for public education. This is fine, I'm a good citizen. But if I was a single parent, I should be able to keep my own $1026 and have the choice to keep it and use it towards a private school tution or let it go to the DOE and send my child to public school. The right to choose where the money that I worked for goes.

So all I would want, is some kind of tax deduction that would allow parents to keep the money they earned, to spend for alternative education choices, instead of being forced give it to the DOE. Now for those children left in the DOE, they still have tax revenue from everyone else not choosing to take an alternate route and from taxes from businesses. I'm thinking that a tax deduction like this, would equal to less than what a voucher would take out of the DOE? Still fair for those left in the system? But also fair enough for those parents who want choice?

After seeing John Stossel's report, and also being a Capitalist. The goal is to create competiton for school choice for parents, to motivate schools to provide better service. Test scores are hard to say how well performance is. Instead of letting a test decide, let the parents decide. Let them vote with which school they end up funding.

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

For these reasons we chose to get her enrolled in one of the private schools up this side. A voucher system would be great, but agree with Scriv about the system favoring the more affluent. They have to come up with a way to limit it to families who's incomes don't exceed a certain amount. Like how they passed a bill to give tax refunds to families with incomes not exceeding $50,000.

One of my heros who I look up to for guidance, Charlie Munger happens to agree with your stance there regarding vouchers. Quote from Damn Right!: Behind The Scenes With Berkshire Hathaway Billionaire Charlie Munger:

"Munger said he would favor the school voucher concept if vouchers were only given to poor people. "The better off people don't need them, since they already can afford choice and are excercising it. It wouldn't bother me at all if vouchers were only for people otherwise destined for failed schools. But I think we have to do something to in our most troubled schools to change our techniques. It's insane to keep going the way we are"

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Another proposed solution regarding education reform is the 65% soluiton. It's an interesting concept developed by Patrick Byrne. It's idea is to require that 65% of every school district's education operational budget be spent on class room instruction. According to their website, the national avg. is 61.5% and Hawaii spends 60.23%. What this means is that more money should be diverted from some bureaucracy, to fund more teachers, more pay for teachers, or resouces for students without having to raise taxes.

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Video clip of John Stossel at a protest for school vouchers for Texas school children: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrZZebSo0e8

Education reform has to happen on the state level. Let your district representative and senator know how you feel about education in Hawaii.

[Creative-1]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

The problem, as I see it, is that the government runs the educational system.

Government isn't good at running ANYTHING. And, in Hawaii, we have the only state-wide DOE in the country.

We say we value education, but then we turn it over to a huge bureaucracy.

Less than 70% of our students graduate in Hawaii. That means we're failing 30% of our students. And no one is up in arms!

That the public puts up with this means that WE are stupid in America.