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  • Vermont Secession Movement

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/ver...action/?page=1

    I for one would like to see this happen. It would interesting to see how the pros and cons play out.

  • #2
    Re: Vermont Secession Movement

    yeah, i think i heard this one on npr. interesting, all right but i wonder how things would turn out if they got what they wanted? of course, i'd be thrilled if they succeeded in creating a "better", less corrupt society.
    525,600 minutes, 525,000 moments so dear. 525,600 minutes - how do you measure, measure a year?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Vermont Secession Movement

      Originally posted by shaveice View Post
      yeah, i think i heard this one on npr. interesting, all right but i wonder how things would turn out if they got what they wanted? of course, i'd be thrilled if they succeeded in creating a "better", less corrupt society.
      Yeah, I would think that there would be a lot of hardship to bear if they did secede. Oh man, I assumed Vermont was one of the original thirteen colonies. But boy, was I wrong. They were one of five U.S. states that were once an independent nation.

      America has strayed from its roots, its founding principles. Independence and freedom is just not handed to you and prices need to be paid. I'd rather suffer the consequences of local rule versus federal rule. As long as there are corrupt people, corruption will exist in any govt. and any society. But I think trying to eliminate bureaucracy is a good thing. I want to keep my taxes to take care of myself and not try to play a game of getting more than what I contributed and sort of short change someone else of their taxes. This is the game that's being played with the federal govt. and people here put someone like Dan Inouye on a pedestal for doing it so well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Vermont Secession Movement

        The real problem with our "union" is that the Federal Government has taken away the power and many rights of the individual states to run themselves as they see fit. Of course you can never please all the people all the time, but if folks living in the same geographical area vote to have something done there ( could be anything from gay marriages to chlorinated water ), why does the Federal Government get to supercede their wishes?

        Guess we've become Rome!
        Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Vermont Secession Movement

          Yeah Buddy !!! Menehune Man .... you are the man !! cuzza daz what ima tokkinbout all dis time

          I realize Hawaii is different from Vermont. And GD...in Hawaii, we oughta have some differences from the Fed.....i mean, given all the Locals, and a helluva lot of libertarians and Elks members sprinkled in....and the remote location, and the military significance, and the scientific significance, and the cultural significance, and the biological significance, and the surf .....geeeesh already....this place is pretty damned cool (when compared on a planetary scale), and anybody with half a mind knows that already.

          It is politcally savvy to follow in the footsteps of the proponents of more local political control. That is why voters should seek leaders that appear low on the radar, yet high in energy level (fight).

          But remember, the safety of society depends upon the MOST number of peaceful people working together, in large geographical portions of the land mass. So you cannot possibly, or logically agree, that Vermont, or Hawaii for that matter, can, or should, separate itself from the greater entity known as the United States of America.

          Now the US Fed could be limited, agreeeeeed. And States could certainly exercise more power, as desired by our founders, and confounded by our courts in the last 35 years.

          But don't forget to savor the peaceful dividends that come from such an entity.
          FutureNewsNetwork.com
          Energy answers are already here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Vermont Secession Movement

            Originally posted by timkona View Post
            But remember, the safety of society depends upon the MOST number of peaceful people working together, in large geographical portions of the land mass. So you cannot possibly, or logically agree, that Vermont, or Hawaii for that matter, can, or should, separate itself from the greater entity known as the United States of America.

            Now the US Fed could be limited, agreeeeeed. And States could certainly exercise more power, as desired by our founders, and confounded by our courts in the last 35 years.

            But don't forget to savor the peaceful dividends that come from such an entity.
            You bring out some good points Tim. However, the pro secession people in Vermont feel that it is impossible to curtail the current control the US Fed has and the only solution to restore more control to the state is to secede.

            What's also interesting about Vermont is they don't want to abolish their state govt. It's not a race issue, or restore a monarchy issue with them. They also hope to achieve this by having their state legislature approve this by at least a 2/3 majority vote. They want peace with the U.S. and maintain business as usual except for the state now having the power to determine its relationship with the U.S..

            It will be interesting to see how all this unfolds. And maybe people here in Hawaii will get ideas. I see secession as seperate from the Native Hawaiian Sovereignty issue. It could be something that majority of residents will feel benefits them and therefore embrace.

            It appears that the War with Iraq was the last straw for the people of Vermont. They see less benefits being with the union versus being independent. An act like this, might actually help create changes that strengthen the U.S. and the rejoining of Vermont into the union in the future.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Vermont Secession Movement

              Originally posted by timkona View Post
              Yeah Buddy !!! Menehune Man .... you are the man !! cuzza daz what ima tokkinbout all dis time
              *Cough, cough!* Wow, this is some serious b.s., Tim. Everyone on this board knows you are the biggest local government opponent on this board. I’ve never heard you give praise to local politician.

              Originally posted by timkona View Post
              you cannot possibly, or logically agree, that Vermont, or Hawaii for that matter, can, or should, separate itself from the greater entity known as the United States of America ... don't forget to savor the peaceful dividends that come from such an entity.
              yea, see? that’s the real Tim showing his true colors.

              We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

              — U.S. President Bill Clinton
              USA TODAY, page 2A
              11 March 1993

              Comment


              • #8
                Americanaziation, provokes Vermont Secession Movement

                .
                === I for one would like to see this happen. It would interesting to see how the pros and cons play out. http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/06/03/in_vermont_nascent_secession_movement_gains_tracti on/?page=1 GnosticWarrior149058 ===


                The “americanization” of students in the U.S. education system could arguably be deemed to be the primary role of taxpayer-funded education in primary and secondary schools of the United States. It is misleading to suggest that this “americanization” role of government-funded education in the U.S. has been, ever was or is anything less than a fundamental underpinning of the U.S. public educational system. Never merely a trend --that is, some general direction or showing a tendency-- instead “americanization” has always been a very specific, major feature of US’s public education systems.

                The noun “americanization” comes from the verb Americanize :
                to bring (as an area, an individual, a people) under the political, cultural, or commercial influence of the United States.

                There is an US of the U.S. and They have ordained themselves to be America. They are the rulers, the definers and judges, however hypocritical, of morality in the Americas: They are US of the U.S. There is no denying Them that to which They have judged themselves to be entitled. The U.S. Civil War was/is one of their most glorious crowning successes and we have all been taught that Their leader Abraham Lincoln should be/is a hero to us, all of us 'Americans'...not just a hero to US Americans. We have been taught that more than a half million people, Americans all, had to perish in warfare to save what? To save Democracy?

                To be “americanized” is to be processed for compliant, taxable use as a commodity in corporatUSt$’ capitalUSism.. "Americanization" is the greatest service US’s U.S. educational system can provide US as They have those of us "americanized" (i.e., thoroughly processed) prepare for Them gluttonUS tables at which They dine in prayer for the boundless glory of the culture of militarUSt nationalism, a culture that has delivered continuous unimaginable bounty to US for the better part of a half millennium.

                The US American Empire is in its death throes. This generation? Next generation? Certainly not much longer need humanity suffer the bloated arrogance of the greatest parasitical empire ever born of the bowels of mankind.

                Secession of individual States from the medussa of the East Coast financial nobilities and its DC political asylum? Why empower the dying monster with a new enemy to fight? Just be ready for its demise and don't get sucked into the vortex of its consuming flush toward Hades.
                Last edited by waioli kai; June 11, 2007, 04:13 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Americanaziation, provokes Vermont Secession Movement

                  Originally posted by waioli kai View Post
                  .“americanization

                  The noun “americanization” comes from the verb Americanize :

                  To be “americanized” is to be processed for compliant, taxable use as a commodity in corporatUSt$’ capitalUSism.. "Americanization" is the greatest service US’s U.S. educational system can provide US as They have those of us "americanized" (i.e., thoroughly processed) prepare for Them gluttonUS tables at which They dine in prayer for the boundless glory of the culture of militarUSt nationalism, a culture that has delivered continuous unimaginable bounty to US for the better part of a half millennium.

                  Secession of individual States from the medussa of the East Coast financial nobilities and its DC political asylum? Why empower the dying monster with a new enemy to fight? Just be ready for its demise and don't get sucked into the vortex of its consuming flush toward Hades.
                  Wow! This would be almost funny if there wasn't enough truth in it to hurt or biased to be one sided.

                  The country and citizens of the United States of America have sacrificed many times over helping other countries and their citizens also. While it's true we haven't always worn the white hat, an evil monster wouldn't send supplies to places around the world that are affected by natural disasters or join in side by side to help them fight off tyranny. Or share our medications, or rebuild their country better than it was before war, or....

                  I agree that the U.S. will probably implode through our own immorality.
                  We have presently, liars in power of the government and large corporations. So the wrongs that are being commited towards eachother and outside the U.S. will bite us in the okole. We'll see how the rest of history plays out.
                  Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Americanaziation hypocrUSy, provokes Vermont Secession Movement

                    .
                    ---"The country and citizens of the United States of America have sacrificed many times over helping other countries and their citizens also. While it's true we haven't always worn the white hat, an evil monster wouldn't send supplies to places around the world that are affected by natural disasters or join in side by side to help them fight off tyranny. Or share our medications, or rebuild their country better than it was before war, or.... " ---Menehune Man 149385

                    While it is true that some our citizens have over time displayed and acted upon the best of altruistic intentions, it is not uncommon that they have done so in spite of our corporatist governments' malignant policies. The U.S. government deserves absolutely zero credit for such benevolency on the part of its citizens other than to cite that the government did not prohibit or otherwise interfer with such benevolent actions.

                    As for occassions our government may seem to have acted for the most self-less of reasons for the benefit of humanity, I and others can easily hold forth arguments to defend positions which show that our government only acted such, that is made a show of benevolency, when in fact our government had ulterior motives of a quid pro quo underlying nature.

                    For those instances when our government has ever done otherwise to that which I claim, those handfull of times are more than cancelled out by our corporatist governments' many despicable, when not in fact criminal, actions throughout the world from past centuries to the present.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Vermont Secession Movement

                      I agree with most of your last post Waioli Kai. Thanks for the pleasant exchange of thoughts on this subject.

                      Then again most people and countries around the world wonder...
                      "What's in it for me, if I do that?"

                      It's by far the smaller group of humans that are truly, unselfishly, community/worldly minded.

                      There's another aspect which concerns... expectations.

                      You know how there'll be someone who usually does for others, then one day he/she says "no", to do something for self and those concerned are disappointed, possibly even mad? All the good may be immediately forgotten and that person labeled selfish.
                      When in honest reality they're not.

                      Just a thought...
                      Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Altruism vs. human nature, Re: Vermont Secession Movement

                        .
                        ----= I agree with most of your last post Waioli Kai. Thanks for the pleasant exchange of thoughts on this subject.

                        Then again most people and countries around the world wonder...
                        "What's in it for me, if I do that?"

                        It's by far the smaller group of humans that are truly, unselfishly, community/worldly minded.

                        There's another aspect which concerns... expectations.

                        You know how there'll be someone who usually does for others, then one day he/she says "no", to do something for self and those concerned are disappointed, possibly even mad? All the good may be immediately forgotten and that person labeled selfish.
                        When in honest reality they're not.

                        Just a thought... =---Menehune Man
                        149408

                        It could be that in the end there is no such thing as individual human altruism were we to psychoanalyze individuals to the nth degree, and, as such, we may possibly expect no more from our governments. That is far from giving us an excuse to accept far less from our governments. If anything, it should be our governments that exhibit that goodness for which a single human soul can only struggle against his human nature to manifest.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Americanaziation, provokes Vermont Secession Movement

                          Originally posted by waioli kai View Post
                          .
                          === I for one would like to see this happen. It would interesting to see how the pros and cons play out. http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/06/03/in_vermont_nascent_secession_movement_gains_tracti on/?page=1 GnosticWarrior149058 ===
                          The “americanization” of students in the U.S. education system could arguably be deemed to be the primary role of taxpayer-funded education in primary and secondary schools of the United States. It is misleading to suggest that this “americanization” role of government-funded education in the U.S. has been, ever was or is anything less than a fundamental underpinning of the U.S. public educational system. Never merely a trend --that is, some general direction or showing a tendency-- instead “americanization” has always been a very specific, major feature of US’s public education systems.

                          The noun “americanization” comes from the verb Americanize :
                          to bring (as an area, an individual, a people) under the political, cultural, or commercial influence of the United States.
                          There is an US of the U.S. and They have ordained themselves to be America. They are the rulers, the definers and judges, however hypocritical, of morality in the Americas: They are US of the U.S. There is no denying Them that to which They have judged themselves to be entitled. The U.S. Civil War was/is one of their most glorious crowning successes and we have all been taught that Their leader Abraham Lincoln should be/is a hero to us, all of us 'Americans'...not just a hero to US Americans. We have been taught that more than a half million people, Americans all, had to perish in warfare to save what? To save Democracy?

                          To be “americanized” is to be processed for compliant, taxable use as a commodity in corporatUSt$’ capitalUSism.. "Americanization" is the greatest service US’s U.S. educational system can provide US as They have those of us "americanized" (i.e., thoroughly processed) prepare for Them gluttonUS tables at which They dine in prayer for the boundless glory of the culture of militarUSt nationalism, a culture that has delivered continuous unimaginable bounty to US for the better part of a half millennium.

                          The US American Empire is in its death throes. This generation? Next generation? Certainly not much longer need humanity suffer the bloated arrogance of the greatest parasitical empire ever born of the bowels of mankind.

                          Secession of individual States from the medussa of the East Coast financial nobilities and its DC political asylum? Why empower the dying monster with a new enemy to fight? Just be ready for its demise and don't get sucked into the vortex of its consuming flush toward Hades.
                          The term "Americanization", John Taylor Gatto calls "Prussianization":

                          The odd fact of a Prussian provenance for our schools pops up again and again once you know to look for it. William James alluded to it many times at the turn of the century. Orestes Brownson, the hero of Christopher Lasch's 1991 book, The True and Only Heaven, was publicly denouncing the Prussianization of American schools back in the 1840s. Horace Mann's "Seventh Annual Report" to the Massachusetts State Board of Education in 1843 is essentially a paean to the land of Frederick the Great and a call for its schooling to be brought here. That Prussian culture loomed large in America is hardly surprising, given our early association with that utopian state. A Prussian served as Washington's aide during the Revolutionary War, and so many German-speaking people had settled here by 1795 that Congress considered publishing a German-language edition of the federal laws. But what shocks is that we should so eagerly have adopted one of the very worst aspects of Prussian culture: an educational system deliberately designed to produce mediocre intellects, to hamstring the inner life, to deny students appreciable leadership skills, and to ensure docile and incomplete citizens 11 in order to render the populace "manageable."

                          If wikipedia as a source is to be trusted, the U.S. Civil War appears to have been about the secession issue of the 11 Confederate State from the "Union". They wanted to exercise "state rights". Slavery at that time appears to have been an economic and moral issue regarding the issue of secession. Also the Federal Income Tax was first imposed during the War. In school, they made it seem that it was about slavery.

                          No doubt the Fed. Govt. is dying. They're going broke. Corporations will rule. Better start aligning yourself with the right ones.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Vermont Secession Movement

                            Texas had or has a movement like this, too.

                            I don't know Vermont's history but I do know Texas at least has a realistic reason for it since it was, like Hawaii a nation/country at one time.

                            I can also share that there aren't many native Texans that really care a hoot about the issue so it isn't likely to ever gain momentum. I'm native Texan from more generations than I can count and cherokee, too and I'm happy with Texas being in the union cuz I doubt with human nature being what it is, that any "new nation" would do it any better.
                            Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Vermont Secession Movement

                              Originally posted by Menehune Man View Post
                              It's by far the smaller group of humans that are truly, unselfishly, community/worldly minded.

                              It is these such people that will ultimately have to come to the conclusion, that if they are unselfish enough to care about the group, they need to step up and assume leadership positions either in a corporation or govt. I think Warren Buffett would be the closest that ever came to such a thing for a corporation. However, Morihei Ueshiba and his Aikikai organization is a great modern example of spiritual leadership. No one like him, as of yet ever assumed a leadership role in govt. or a corporation.

                              Can spirituality and corporations co-exist? I think so. People can expend alot of enery when motivated by love but also when motivated by fear. Motivating thru fear seems to be the norm though.

                              Comment

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