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Karen
July 9th, 2007, 11:35 PM
This has been bugging me and this is the perfect place to comment, listen, learn and share about it. I've been hearing a lot of radio commercials and seeing Jade Moon, which by the way I respect and like a lot trying to sell us all on using CFL lightbulbs.

What is bugging me is that the whole story isn't being told. I don't think even the Advertiser covered every possible problem with these things. The little bit of mercury in them isn't their biggest downside.

A regular CFL bulb is not supposed to be put in any fixture that is a three way fixture, only three way bulbs belong in those. There are CFLs made three way but they aren't easy to find on island, to purchase. I think it was the Star Bulletin that did a story on this a few mos. back and they had contacted local stores and only found one lighting store that had, or could order three-way CFLs. Walmart at the time didn't have them, I looked, and the article mentioned that until CFLs, in general become more in demand the stores said they weren't stocking the three way ones.

Another potential hazard is putting the CFLs in enclosed fixtures.

Problem is that whomever Jade is making the commercials for isn't serving the public well. She alludes to it being a good idea to replace ALL of our light fixtures with CFLs, with no mention about the potential three-way hazard, or them not being safe in enclosed fixtures.

scrivener
July 9th, 2007, 11:55 PM
I didn't know that about the enclosed fixtures. I currently (haha!) have them in the ceiling fan in my living room and I HATE them! The color of the light is just AWFUL. I'm going to play with the number of bulbs I have in there (it takes four, but I've only got two right now), but if the color or brightness don't improve, I'm moving these to the laundry room, bathroom, hallway, and stairs. But I don't like the idea of having uncovered fixtures -- they're repugnant.

MonkeyMan
July 10th, 2007, 03:18 AM
Mmmmm, Jade Moon. Rowr.

Glen Miyashiro
July 10th, 2007, 06:50 AM
I currently (haha!) have them in the ceiling fan in my living room and I HATE them! The color of the light is just AWFUL. I'm going to play with the number of bulbs I have in there (it takes four, but I've only got two right now), but if the color or brightness don't improve, I'm moving these to the laundry room, bathroom, hallway, and stairs.Have you tried different color temperatures? These days you can get CF lamps in at least three color temps: warm white, cool white, and daylight. And if yours are too dim, it may be that they're old. CF lamps dim with age, unlike incandescents which stay at a fairly constant brightness till they burn out.

GeckoGeek
July 10th, 2007, 07:38 AM
Jade Moon, which by the way I respect and like a lot trying to sell us all on using CFL lightbulbs.

Yeah, I like her too, but at the moment she's a paid mouth - a PR flack. She's got no technical knowledge. (I've got a bigger carp about the bio fuel stuff.)



A regular CFL bulb is not supposed to be put in any fixture that is a three way fixture, only three way bulbs belong in those.

What's the problem? I've had 3 way sockets and usually only have standard incandescents in there.



Another potential hazard is putting the CFLs in enclosed fixtures.

That may come under "read the instructions". I've used CFLs in those "jelly jar" lights in our apartment's garage - they run all night, every night.

One issue you've missed is that many can not be dimmed. Some even say don't use it on a electronically switched circuit like a touch lamp. (The garage lights above were switched with mechanical contacts, so they were fine.)



Problem is that whomever Jade is making the commercials for isn't serving the public well. She alludes to it being a good idea to replace ALL of our light fixtures with CFLs, with no mention about the potential three-way hazard, or them not being safe in enclosed fixtures.

HECO. Yup. Never let the facts get in the way of a good idea. <sigh> Change them all? Yeah, right. They don't make sense in areas where lights are rarely used or only used for a short time. Like attic lights or closet lights.

I'm unaware of any hazard in using CFLs. You mis-use them and they'll have a short life. But no hazard I know of.

GeckoGeek
July 10th, 2007, 07:45 AM
HATE them! The color of the light is just AWFUL.

It's a case of getting what you pay for. I've seen some CFLs that are "cold" and prone to flickering. I'd only use them for outdoor walkways. But I've got others that are warm (if anything the color is too warm) and flicker free. I've got a old Phillips "Earth Light" that I've had for probably 10 years + by now. No problems. It's my reading light.

Karen
July 10th, 2007, 10:01 AM
I posted the news article that covered it well.....at a yahoo discussion group, I think, cuz I recall the women talking of it later, so....I'll go peruse the old list from a couple of mos. back, and post it here. It was quite eye opening. There very clearly are two issues with them that are worse than any mercury if they are broken, yada yada. Going to look now....sorry was lazy and didn't try to find the article last night.

Karen
July 10th, 2007, 10:37 AM
Food for thought, can't confirm the validity of it, as another poster, not an author or reporter wrote this.

""Some "one way" CFLs work in "three way" sockets, some don't;
it depends on how the base of the CFL is designed. When they
don't work, there can be a fire hazard if they don't immediately
trip the circuit breaker/blow the fuse. If you look at the base
of a real three-way lamp and compare it to a CFL base, you'll
be able to tell which ones will operate and which ones will
fail: the bad-based CFLs have their metal outer shell intrude
into the area where a three-way lamp has the "ring" contact.
The shell contacts the ring contact in the socket and shorts
it out."



Aha! here is a link with both points covered, as well as others and they confirm what I read but now can't find.


http://www.aps.com/main/green/choice/choice_4.html

scrivener
July 10th, 2007, 11:03 AM
It's a case of getting what you pay for. I've seen some CFLs that are "cold" and prone to flickering. I'd only use them for outdoor walkways. But I've got others that are warm (if anything the color is too warm) and flicker free. I've got a old Phillips "Earth Light" that I've had for probably 10 years + by now. No problems. It's my reading light.
The ones I have are "daylight" bulbs I bought at a Home Depot. My living room ceiling fan has four sockets, and two 75-watt incandescents used to be great. I've now got the two CFLs in there and it feels like I'm in a hospital waiting room all the time. There is no flicker I can detect; there is just a sickly institutional-feeling light I can't read by. In fact, these CFLs really do save me money, because now I just sit in the dark, so unpleasant is the light in that room.

It sounds like I still have some experimenting to do. If others' testimonies are so glowing (haha!), perhaps there's some hope after all. I am not especially environment-conscious, so I have no moral qualms about going back to what I was using, but if I can do something that will save me money without altering my lifestyle too much, I will.

But you know. Seeing is not a luxury.

Da Rolling Eye
July 10th, 2007, 11:16 AM
Started using them when Ottlites were the only one's you could get at that light bulb store that was on Ward Ave. Almost $20 a pop. :eek: Since then the twisted ones came out and was way less expensive. I have replaced all our lights with these including the outside floods. If we had a 3 way lamp, I simply switched the bulb holder out for a single. Easy fix and only a couple of bucks. We don't have dimmers and do use them in the ceiling fans. (only 2, 3 or 4 is way too bright)

Been using them exclusively, now, for almost 10 years and only had 3 burn out. Btw, all CFL bulb packages have caveats about using them with dimmers or 3 way lamps.

What is the hazard of using them in enclosed fixtures? :confused: I've used them for years in enclosed ceiling fixtures with no problems. In fact, enclosed flourescent ceiling fixtures have been around for ages using the straight or circle flo. light bulbs. Never, ever heard of any problems with those and it's all basically the same.

I see no problems with HECO advertising their use. How many companies do you know that advertise a product that will use less of what they sell? ;) As for Jade not knowing what she's talking about in those commercials.....she doesn't have to. Like someone already mentioned, she's a paid mouth. Her job is to recite a memorized script. Nothing more, nothing less.

Karen
July 10th, 2007, 01:05 PM
They can overheat in enclosed fixtures.

Not a thing wrong with HECO advertising their use, in fact I think it's wise, but....the WAY they try to sell us on them matters a lot, and with these things.....the Jade commercial or commercials? about them are not safe. She asks what would happen if we switch every light in our home to them, and then says how we'd save money, but that isn't all that would or could happen...per the enclosed fixtures and the dimmers, etc. This is downright frightening if every home on island does this and even a third of them don't know about the warnings. Oh, so many times we just grab a lightbulb and reading the package doesn't even come to mind, and then not all the warnings are on the packages, anyway.

tutusue
July 10th, 2007, 02:00 PM
[...]Not a thing wrong with HECO advertising their use, in fact I think it's wise, but....the WAY they try to sell us on them matters a lot, and with these things.....the Jade commercial or commercials? about them are not safe. [...]
As others have already mentioned, Jade has nothing to do with it. Your complaint/concern needs to be addressed to the advertiser (HECO) who, in turn, may address the matter with it's advertising agency. There is much collaboration between an advertiser and it's ad agency. The advertiser approves the copy (scripts) prior to production moving forward. Keep in mind, tho', that only a small amount of a story can be told in 30 seconds.

Scriv...I have a light fixture in my bathroom that holds 3 bulbs. The glass covers are copper and white stripe. Currently I use 1 CFL bulb and 2 incandescents. When the fixture is on, the white striped portion of the glass cover surrounding the CFL bulb turns green! I couldn't use flourescent tube lighting in my casting studio because of the overall greenish tint that showed on the video! Flourescent lights do give off a very institutional look!

GM...I wasn't aware that CFLs had various color temps available. Thanks for that info.

glossyp
July 10th, 2007, 02:21 PM
I'm unaware of any hazard in using CFLs. You mis-use them and they'll have a short life. But no hazard I know of.
This is the problem. Most people are unaware of the hazards of CFLs. A bit of research shows that EPA has very specific rules regarding the disposal of CFLs as they pose a serious environmental hazard; the mercury can leach out into landfills and poison the soil and drinking water. If you break one, you should leave the area for at least 15 minutes for the fumes to dissipate and never sweep or vacuum the broken bulb and its contents. It should be picked up with duct tape or wet towels and everything disposed of in a sealed plastic bag. For those who aren't aware, mercury exposure poses serious health risks, including permanent nerve and kidney damage.

One thing we should all be doing is recycling them properly and not disposing of them in our regular trash.

This page from EnergyStar (http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=cfls.pr_cfls) has a link to a safety PDF at the bottom which everyone should download and read.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm stockpiling incandescents to sell on the black market when the inevitable ban comes. So all you folks who can't stand CFL light give me a call and I'll make you a deal in a few years. :D

Da Rolling Eye
July 10th, 2007, 02:50 PM
They can overheat in enclosed fixtures.

Karen, if overheating was such a threat, most townhouse/condominiums, schools, office buildings, etc. would not be using them, 24/7, in the common areas in enclosed fixtures, some of them being weather proof....yes? Has there been any documented problems? How'bout a link? :)

Karen
July 10th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Sue, I'm sorry if you've misunderstood my posts, in that I am well aware that Jade is just a hired person in the advertisements, I haven't "blamed" her and started my first mention of her with the fact that I respect and actually like her. I've already made complaints elsewhere and contacted KSSK since they play her commercial a lot, and they are the most popular radio station on island, and I actually believe that they care.


Da Rolling eye, I already provided a link, and I assure you that you can google it yourself and many links will come up. Do you mean you want a link of where there's already been a problem? I'll be glad to try to find you one, while I assure you that I've heard of the potential hazards from multiple sources and I doubt all of these sources are all having the same fantasy about it, while nope, I don't personally know anyone that's had a problem, and have not yet searched for reports of them.

scrivener
July 10th, 2007, 05:37 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm stockpiling incandescents to sell on the black market when the inevitable ban comes. So all you folks who can't stand CFL light give me a call and I'll make you a deal in a few years.
This is a brilliant (haha!) idea. You think there's enough room in the black market for us both?

tutusue
July 10th, 2007, 05:50 PM
Sue, I'm sorry if you've misunderstood my posts, in that I am well aware that Jade is just a hired person in the advertisements, I haven't "blamed" her and started my first mention of her with the fact that I respect and actually like her. I've already made complaints elsewhere and contacted KSSK since they play her commercial a lot, and they are the most popular radio station on island, and I actually believe that they care.[...]
No problem, Karen! Still, you need to complain effectively...and that means directly to the advertiser. That holds true for any product. In your first post you admit to not even knowing the name of the advertiser. It's really necessary to have that knowledge before you start the complaint process.

craigwatanabe
July 10th, 2007, 05:51 PM
I couldn't use flourescent tube lighting in my casting studio because of the overall greenish tint that showed on the video! Flourescent lights do give off a very institutional look!

GM...I wasn't aware that CFLs had various color temps available. Thanks for that info.


With the right filters (http://www.camerafilters.com/pages/fl.aspx)you can filter out that green tint in photo and video shoots.

As for enclosed fixtures I've never had any issues with heat as most incandescent bulbs create way more heat than CFL's. Typically a 60-watt output CFL uses about 17-watts of energy so they run cooler than a comparable 60-watt incandescent bulb.

Regarding the use of CFL's in three way fixtures, I use em all the time. The only issue is that you keep turning the knob on the lamp until it eventually lights up (usually within two clicks)

As for dimmable CFL's. At Home Depot we do sell dimmers that can be used for CFL's that do allow them to be dimmed.

One advantage of using CFL's is that a light fixture has a maximum watt rating for bulbs used. An incandescent bulb using 60-watts of energy put in a fixture rated for 60-watts will produce 60-watts of lighting. However a CFL bulb using 60-watts of energy put in that same fixture will produce 150-watts of lighting. Brighter lighting, better coverage, same fixture, no fire hazzard.

tutusue
July 10th, 2007, 05:55 PM
With the right filters (http://www.camerafilters.com/pages/fl.aspx)you can filter out that green tint in photo and video shoots.[...]
Yep! However, it was less expensive to bypass the flourescents and install 3 reflector lights...and to have a gaffer do it for me!! ;)

craigwatanabe
July 10th, 2007, 05:57 PM
Yep! However, it was less expensive to bypass the flourescents and install 3 reflector lights...and to have a gaffer do it for me!! ;)

How much did you pay the gaffer and was he on the union clock? Filters work better and since in any photo shoot multiple point lighting is always preferred. I can tell how many catch lights a photographer used by counting the light specks in the model's eyes.

tutusue
July 10th, 2007, 06:12 PM
How much did you pay the gaffer and was he on the union clock? Filters work better and since in any photo shoot multiple point lighting is always preferred. I can tell how many catch lights a photographer used by counting the light specks in the model's eyes.
The reason it was less expensive was 2 fold...
The reflector lights were very cheap...
and...
The gaffer was even cheaper...FREE! Well, we traded services! He wrote a short, indie film that I helped cast!

Karen
July 10th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Sue, true and if i had just stopped to think about it, I'd have known it is HECO, but then that is not the only effective way to complain. Each station, be it tv or radio has a choice and even a responsibility about whether they carry an advertiser's commercial. I have already effectively....complained to KSSK, and emailed...dang, can't recall who else. Not to worry, as time permits I will complain to HECO, also. I continue to be shocked that it's even an issue, and that there is need for me to complain to them when there clearly is.

Each individual tv and radio station needs to be contacted, as well as HECO, but my life is in overdrive and I get to things when I can, and KSSK was a good place to start, as was HT here because this place is really popular.

That being said, we have more CFLs than I can count in this place, but we already changed out a couple of 3 ways, and have a few fixtures that have the oldies in them. Just last dec. we had this old house totally rewired and every fixture replaced, and sure don't want to blow our new safety theme by misusing CFLs. Point is the current advertising campaign is not being sufficiently handled.

tutusue
July 10th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Karen...check your PMs!

Karen
July 10th, 2007, 09:05 PM
Sue, will do so, next! Want a laugh at/on me? I read that quickly cuz I am muilti-tasking at my desk here, and I read "check your PMS," LOL. I thought..."gee, how did she know we were just talking about this today?!" :p

tutusue
July 10th, 2007, 11:03 PM
I clicked thru a few links on heco.com and found this CFL info (http://www.heco.com/vcmcontent/StaticFiles/pdf/CFLflyer.pdf). It addresses the 3 way, dimmer and air flow issues. I didn't see the breakage/clean up issue mentioned but I also didn't check the entire web site.

In fairness to HECO with regard to their commercials, it would be very difficult to address these issues in a 30 second commercial. Karen, do you have a suggestion on how HECO could incorporate the negatives of CFLs into what needs to be a positive commercial? I'm not asking that question glibly. I'm sincerely interested in learning your ideas.

GeckoGeek
July 10th, 2007, 11:14 PM
Aha! here is a link with both points covered, as well as others and they confirm what I read but now can't find.
http://www.aps.com/main/green/choice/choice_4.html

Confirms the 3-way problem (sheesh, bad design to allow that). It gives a green light to enclosed fixtures. It also confirms what I said: "avoid installing CFLs on exterior fixtures that have integrated motion sensors or dusk-to-dawn sensors, as their useful lives may be shortened significantly." That's the electronic switching of lights.

Something else is that some appliances expect an ordinary incandescent bulb to draw the very small operating power they need. (Motion detectors and other electronically controlled stuff). Because the CFLs don't behave the same way at low voltages, it may not work right.


The ones I have are "daylight" bulbs I bought at a Home Depot.

Oops. "daylight" is definitely on the blue side of lighting. You want something warmer. Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Colors)

Once enlightened :rolleyes: I think you'll like them.

My family has used CFL (well, pre-C FLs) since very early 80s. We did it because the payback was less then a year. Used them ever since.


For those who aren't aware, mercury exposure poses serious health risks, including permanent nerve and kidney damage.

I'm doomed. I used to play with it. Rolled it into pretty little balls and that kind of stuff. And <wince> I'm <twitch> perfectly <spaz> normal. I donno. There might be some hazard associated with it, but I have to wonder of much of a real threat it presents. After all, those who do all the warning stand to gain by making a bigger deal of it. </rant>



Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm stockpiling incandescents to sell on the black market when the inevitable ban comes.

What about oven lights? CFLs in the refrigerator too? Not to mention the appliances (motion detectors) that won't work with CFLs. I know it has been talked about, but I don't think a ban would fly.


GM...I wasn't aware that CFLs had various color temps available. Thanks for that info.

There's also CRI (color rendition index). The higher the better. The whole color thing is :confused:

Murphy's law: If you're comparing two bulbs, they'll use a different measurements so you can't compare them. :mad:


do you have a suggestion on how HECO could incorporate the negatives of CFLs into what needs to be a positive commercial?

1) Changing EVERY bulb is downright silly. That's taking a good idea to a bad extreme.

2) Disclaimer: "Not all CFLs are for all applications. Read the labels carefully."


I think that would about cover it.

But some education on color temperatures to help people avoid duplicating scrivener's experience would be a good idea as well. A lot of people cringe at the mention of "fluorescents" and a bad color experience will turn them off completely. (pun intended)

Karen
July 11th, 2007, 12:57 AM
Well, it only gives the green light to CFLs that are specially made and marked for "enclosed" fixtures. It also insinuates that most aren't and weren't for a long time when it says "an increasing number..."

") Can I put CFL bulbs inside an enclosed fixture?

A) Yes. An increasing number of CFLs can now fit in enclosed fixtures. Be sure to look to the product packaging for an indication that the bulb is appropriate for use in enclosed fixtures."

Sue, HECO could say something like...."CFLs are not always right for every fixture but they bring great rewards to both your pocketbook and the environment when used correctly, so please everyone, do your homework and use them in as many fixtures as possible." Something....like that.

However, their having their spokesperson say "what would happen if..." and then not telling us even half of what could....or would maybe happen, isn't cutting it.

scrivener
July 11th, 2007, 03:51 AM
In fairness to HECO with regard to their commercials, it would be very difficult to address these issues in a 30 second commercial. Karen, do you have a suggestion on how HECO could incorporate the negatives of CFLs into what needs to be a positive commercial? I'm not asking that question glibly. I'm sincerely interested in learning your ideas.
People in advertising (and I know this isn't advertising, but it comes across the same way) don't take seriously the actual meaning of the words they use; they're more concerned about EFFECTS than about MEANING. So they use words like "all" and "always" and "never" and "ever" when they don't really mean that. In the case of PSAs, if they'd be a little more careful with these absolutes, I think they'd communicate their meaning a lot better.


Oops. "daylight" is definitely on the blue side of lighting. You want something warmer. Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Colors)
Well crap. Why the heck do they call it "daylight" if that's not what they mean? I expected bright, noon-day sunshine. That really ticks me off.


A) Yes. An increasing number of CFLs can now fit in enclosed fixtures. Be sure to look to the product packaging for an indication that the bulb is appropriate for use in enclosed fixtures."
This is annoying. This makes it sound as if the only limitation was on whether or not the CFLs fit in enclosed fixtures. Is there a hazard or isn't there? Does "appropriate" mean something more than whether or not it fits?

GeckoGeek
July 11th, 2007, 07:30 AM
Well crap. Why the heck do they call it "daylight" if that's not what they mean? I expected bright, noon-day sunshine. That really ticks me off.

You might check what the actual rating of the bulb is. A quick Google suggests that 5500K is exactly what daylight is light. However, I've seen fluorescents as blue as 6500K. Meanwhile, incandescents, which is what you are used to in that spot are around 3400K. Much redder.

Edit: Found a color chart (http://www.sizes.com/units/color_temperature.htm) Looks like "daylight" really is daylight. But it is very much on the blue side of what people are conditioned to have in the home at night.

Glen Miyashiro
July 11th, 2007, 08:42 AM
Keep in mind that "don't use CFLs with three-way switches or dimmers" is shorthand for "it won't behave the way you want it to, and the bulb will burn out quicker". It does not mean that doing so poses a danger -- it's not like you'd be creating an electrical fire hazard.

Glen Miyashiro
July 11th, 2007, 08:53 AM
"Daylight" is a lot bluer than we think... and night-time indoor lighting is a lot redder. Millennia of campfires, hearths, candles, and oil lamps have conditioned us to expect that artificial lighting should be the color of fire. It's actually pretty amazing that the human eye can function over such a huge range of brightness.

Another issue is that CFLs, like regular fluorescents (and neon tubes, too) don't actually emit full-spectrum black-body radiation the way the sun, or a fire, or an incandescent bulb, does -- the phosphors that emit the light only do so at certain frequencies -- so the "color temperature" label on a CFL package is a little misleading. The CFL manufacturers try to blend their phosphors to approximate a full spectrum, but it's not perfect. See the differences?:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPIP/lightingAnswers/fullSpectrum/img/figure1-r.gif (http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPIP/lightingAnswers/fullSpectrum/lightSources.asp)

Glen Miyashiro
July 11th, 2007, 08:55 AM
It's true that CFLs aren't usable for all lighting needs. I suspect that they're actually an intermediate technology, and that in the long run we'll be using LEDs for most everything instead...

...except for Easy-Bake Ovens. There are some things that really do need an incandescent bulb. :D

Karen
July 11th, 2007, 10:59 AM
Scrivener, Glen, I have read in more than one place in the last six or less mos. that it IS a safety hazard, the using them in three-way. Who to believe? I've googled and read at electrical contracting companies, public service type sites, and websites of that nature. Who to believe? why take chances when multiple sources warn about doing/not doing so and CFLs have a three-way/dimmer version? I'm guessing we won't know how common or likely the hazard is to trigger until the majority of the population has used them for a time. They're just catching on.

Here's a vidoe production website about the CFLs...

http://www.execulink.com/~impact/fluorescent_lights.htm

Here Long Island Power company says... "Usage
While some CFLs can be used on dimming circuits, others should only be used with basic on/off switches. If you attempt to use a standard CFL bulb with a dimming control, you will shorten the product life and create a potential fire hazard."

Link right here....

http://www.lipower.org/cei/lighting_cfl.html

glossyp
July 11th, 2007, 12:29 PM
I'm doomed. I used to play with it. Rolled it into pretty little balls and that kind of stuff. And <wince> I'm <twitch> perfectly <spaz> normal. I donno. There might be some hazard associated with it, but I have to wonder of much of a real threat it presents. After all, those who do all the warning stand to gain by making a bigger deal of it. </rant>
I hear you and it does seem like the government is just setting us up for additional taxes to pay for disposal.


What about oven lights? CFLs in the refrigerator too? Not to mention the appliances (motion detectors) that won't work with CFLs. I know it has been talked about, but I don't think a ban would fly.
That's what everybody said about banning cigarette smoking 20-30 years ago and look where we're at now. Watch what California does and that will show the future.

GeckoGeek
July 11th, 2007, 11:04 PM
There's nothing so inherently safe that buying a cheap, unrated or falsely rated device can't possibly create harm. I don't think CFLs are uniquely dangerous.

mapen
July 12th, 2007, 05:19 AM
Regarding CFLs in enclosed fixtures, I've got a couple in my kitchen in an enclosure, and this thread got me worried. I found the follwing on GE's web site:

Can I use a compact fluorescent light bulb in an enclosed light fixture?
Compact fluorescent light bulbs may generally be used in enclosed fixtures as long as the enclosed fixture is not recessed. Totally enclosed recessed fixtures (for example, a ceiling can light with a cover over the bulb) create temperatures that are too high to allow the use of a compact fluorescent bulb.

http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/faq_compact.htm#enclosed

craigwatanabe
July 12th, 2007, 06:33 AM
Most ceiling cans (recessed lighting) have vent holes to allow heat to rise up and out of the fixtures. The issue with outdoor cans is that the they need to have covers over them to keep the weather out. That said there are still vent holes at the other end to allow heat to escape.

Yes heat can shorten the life of CFL's but compared to the length of time they will be shortened in regards to their overall longevity, minute per minute they will still save on energy for every instance they're on.

When CFL's first came out they were longer or wider prohibiting their use in some fixtures. Size is what limited their use. Today's CFL's are compact as the name implies and range in size from small candallabra to appliance to standard bulb and larger sizes. Size is the reason why some CFL's aren't acceptable in some fixtures like any light bulb.

When installing them in appliances yes it's not a good idea to put them in ranges or refrigerators due to the temperature extremes. However for range hoods they're perfectly fine. But some appliances use bulbs to illuminate the control panels and use 120v bulbs in electrical appliances that are wired for 240v. In this case the bulb voltage is lower however low in comparison to 240v. The lower voltage is 120v making their use in this case acceptable.

Like any bulb frequent switching on and off will shorten the life of that bulb. In motion detectors, there are no variable voltages. It's either on or off. If you set the motion detector to stay on for five or ten minutes their lifespan won't be affected too much or at all. I have CFL's in all of my outdoor motion detectors for four years now and none are failing.

Same goes for three way fixtures. I haven't had any problems with them in any of my three way lamps that use them. If the bulb doesn't come on there is no voltage going to it so there is no fire hazard. A standard
incandescent bulb will react the same way in a three-way fixture. It will not glow dimly so there isn't any transferance of voltage on the lower settings, the circuit simply won't complete.

oceanpacific
July 12th, 2007, 09:10 AM
Regarding CFLs in enclosed fixtures, I've got a couple in my kitchen in an enclosure, and this thread got me worried. I found the follwing on GE's web site:

Can I use a compact fluorescent light bulb in an enclosed light fixture?
Compact fluorescent light bulbs may generally be used in enclosed fixtures as long as the enclosed fixture is not recessed. Totally enclosed recessed fixtures (for example, a ceiling can light with a cover over the bulb) create temperatures that are too high to allow the use of a compact fluorescent bulb.

http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/faq_compact.htm#enclosed

The longevity of CFLs in my recessed ceiling fixtures has been disappointing. Plus, the lighting level has been relatively dimmer. So, it's back to the regular fixtures for us for both cost and performance.

OTOH, I have some rooms with regular fluorescents (48" tubes) which have lasted for over a decade!

Random
July 12th, 2007, 10:15 PM
Query: I got a light socket that accept 60-watt incandescant bulb.

Instead of a 15-watt CFL, can I put a 25-watt CFL in that socket? I mean, I'm not going over the 60-watt limit.

Glen Miyashiro
July 12th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Query: I got a light socket that accept 60-watt incandescant bulb.

Instead of a 15-watt CFL, can I put a 25-watt CFL in that socket? I mean, I'm not going over the 60-watt limit.Yes. You can, in that it won't draw more current than the fixture is designed for. Whether you want to depends on how bright you want your light to be in that room.

GeckoGeek
July 13th, 2007, 08:38 AM
The longevity of CFLs in my recessed ceiling fixtures has been disappointing. Plus, the lighting level has been relatively dimmer.

You might want to try another brand. There is a lot of variability between brands and models. I don't know if it's still true, but at one point I saw a CFL that the fine print said was not to be run upside down. :eek: They were only usable in floor and table lamps.

For light output, compare the lumans not just the "equivalent to" on the front as I remember one that was a little optimistic in that department.

Bottom line: when buying a CFL, read EVERYTHING on the package.

GeckoGeek
July 13th, 2007, 08:41 AM
Same goes for three way fixtures. I haven't had any problems with them in any of my three way lamps that use them. If the bulb doesn't come on there is no voltage going to it so there is no fire hazard.

I think the claim is that some CFLs have a non-standard base that will short out in a 3-way socket. I think it's worth checking before use to make sure that's not a problem.

Random
July 13th, 2007, 02:41 PM
Yes. You can, in that it won't draw more current than the fixture is designed for. Whether you want to depends on how bright you want your light to be in that room.
Well, I want it to be brighter than a 60-watt incandescent. I know 15-watt is the equivalent, but I want more without shorting out the socket.

Karen
July 13th, 2007, 02:54 PM
I don't know how you can get a 25 CFL to be as bright, much less "brighter" than a 60 incandescent. I still am not pleased with the CFLs brightness of light. Yes, they are better than past years but not quite perfect, however, our house does have a good number of them, now.

Since there are three-way as well as non three-way CFLs, I think we'd be foolish to take chances with them. Just because some people haven 't had problems "yet" doesn't mean they are safe, and with so many websites clearly stating they can be a hazard when not put in the proper fixture, I personally choose to err on the caustious side. Meanwhile, they use less energy and you bet I'm slowly starting to use as many of them as I can.

acousticlady
July 13th, 2007, 06:30 PM
"Daylight" is a lot bluer than we think... and night-time indoor lighting is a lot redder. Millennia of campfires, hearths, candles, and oil lamps have conditioned us to expect that artificial lighting should be the color of fire. It's actually pretty amazing that the human eye can function over such a huge range of brightness.

Another issue is that CFLs, like regular fluorescents (and neon tubes, too) don't actually emit full-spectrum black-body radiation the way the sun, or a fire, or an incandescent bulb, does -- the phosphors that emit the light only do so at certain frequencies -- so the "color temperature" label on a CFL package is a little misleading. The CFL manufacturers try to blend their phosphors to approximate a full spectrum, but it's not perfect. See the differences?:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPIP/lightingAnswers/fullSpectrum/img/figure1-r.gif (http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPIP/lightingAnswers/fullSpectrum/lightSources.asp)

Alright, I have to jump in here and clarify a few things. For one, "daylight" at 5500K refers to the temperature of the emitting body (in this case the sun) which is saying that the elements emitting the light are doing so when they are heated to a temp of 5500K. Daylight is primarily in the yellow range (look at the sun - no wait - not directly :D) Now, look at the chart above...... the wavelengths refered to are the colors we percieve. 400nm - about 450 nm, we percieve blue light. Notice that the daylight line drops significantly at that end. It is peaking in the 500 nm - 550 nm range where we percieve yellow and is still quite high at the upper range of 600 - 700 nm which is red.

Our eyes have only 3 color cones - 1 for blue photons (short), 1 for green (intermediate) and 1 for red (long). EVERY color we percieve is some combination of those. We percieve white light when all three cones types are excited (by incoming photons striking the cones and causing them to vibrate) equally. So, when sunlight enters our eye, it primarily excites the red and green cones and we percieve yellow light. Add in the little bit of blue that is present and we percieve a whitish yellow. (aside - yellow is the ONLY color in the spectrum that is its own wavelength (about 575 nm) and percieved through a combination of red and green).

Now, the "new" lights........ the white light that they are trying to mimic are based on the structure of the eye which is actually very hard to do. The T 12's that are used in the chart are utilizing blue and green primarily. This is because they use mercury. When mercury atoms are excited they emit photons of those specific wavelengths (quantum mechanics :D). Which is why you see sharp peaks on that graph. When you look at pure mercury light it appears very blue. To counteract that, CFLs coat the inside of the tubes with phosphorus. As the mercury atoms bang against the phosphorus, the phosphorus glows white (through a slightly different process).

Now this should probably go under pet peeves, but...... neon tubes (or lights) will ONLY emit bright red light for the same reason mercury will only emit blue. Hydrogen tubes will emit a magenta color, Helium a peachy color, oxygen a pale blue and so on. Every element has it's own unique fingerprint of wavelengths it will emit. So the next time you hear someone talk about the neon lights on Broadway, tell 'em if it ain't red, it ain't neon!

And lastly, they are working very hard to produce LEDs that will emit (collectively) white light. They have successfully produced red and blue but green is giving them a hard time. (I know the guys who are working on this.)

GeckoGeek
July 14th, 2007, 02:14 AM
I don't know how you can get a 25 CFL to be as bright, much less "brighter" than a 60 incandescent.

Sorry if you know this, but I'm not sure of your level of technical knowledge.

"Watt" is a measurement of electrical power. It measures the amount of power going into the bulb, not what we get out of it. For some odd reason, we've all been conditioned to think of bulb brightness in terms of "watts" and not "lumens" which is the correct way to measure light output.

When you go to the store and see "60W" CFLs, what they are really saying is "This bulb puts out the same amount of light as a 60W incandescent". If you read the smaller print, you'll find the bulb actually draws more like 15W.

And that is the whole magic of CFL - you are replacing 60W bulbs with 15W bulbs and not sacrificing brightness.




I still am not pleased with the CFLs brightness of light.

The next time you go to buy more CFLs, that might want to compare the lumans with the incandescent bulbs you would have bought rather then taking the "guide" at face value. I haven't looked recently, but I seem to remember a time when the guide was a bit optimistic. Also, CFLs do dim during their life, so you may want to start on the bright side so that it doesn't become too dark as it approaches end of life.



Since there are three-way as well as non three-way CFLs, I think we'd be foolish to take chances with them. ... and with so many websites clearly stating they can be a hazard when not put in the proper fixture, I personally choose to err on the caustious side.

While 3-way CFLs exist, they aren't that easy to find. (Heck, 3-way incandescents are hard to find too.) I'm not sure as I'd put too much trust in all those websites. First of all, they claim "danger" without explaining it. It starts taking on the air of a "old wives tail". As for Craig and myself, we're both technical people and by nature skeptical until the issue is explained.

In my opinion, any CFLs with a base that would cause a problem with a 3-way light, should be removed from store shelfs as a safety hazard. I can think of no good reason why the manufacturer would ignore accepted standards to create something hazardous.

scrivener
July 14th, 2007, 03:33 AM
Now this should probably go under pet peeves, but...... neon tubes (or lights) will ONLY emit bright red light for the same reason mercury will only emit blue. Hydrogen tubes will emit a magenta color, Helium a peachy color, oxygen a pale blue and so on. Every element has it's own unique fingerprint of wavelengths it will emit. So the next time you hear someone talk about the neon lights on Broadway, tell 'em if it ain't red, it ain't neon!
I remember this from high-school chemistry. Thanks for the reminder and the great explanation, which I'm still working on.

One thing that puzzles me is that even the most rudimentary graphics-editing programs can mix red, green, and blue in such precise amounts as to be nearly ridiculous. Why can't these same computers find a way to mix gases in amounts precise enough to mimic the character of any light conditions in any given region on any particular day?


And lastly, they are working very hard to produce LEDs that will emit (collectively) white light. They have successfully produced red and blue but green is giving them a hard time. (I know the guys who are working on this.)
This, too, is fascinating. Why aren't there three-color overhead incandescent lamps that let you play with the intensity (sorry if that's the wrong word) of each color, perhaps with a dimmer, so you can adjust the white light in your living room to your own preferences? I remember those old projection televisions had three lamps; why didn't, say, ceiling fan lights ever get like that? Seems like it would be a cool thing, especially if you could use Photoshop (or something similar) to adjust the RGB values and then plug those numbers into the lamp.

I appreciate your expertise and thank you for your contribution to this discussion. If I say something that's technically ignorant, please remember this, the day I didn't correct your punctuation or spelling!

joshuatree
July 14th, 2007, 07:03 AM
I remember this from high-school chemistry. Thanks for the reminder and the great explanation, which I'm still working on.

One thing that puzzles me is that even the most rudimentary graphics-editing programs can mix red, green, and blue in such precise amounts as to be nearly ridiculous. Why can't these same computers find a way to mix gases in amounts precise enough to mimic the character of any light conditions in any given region on any particular day?


This, too, is fascinating. Why aren't there three-color overhead incandescent lamps that let you play with the intensity (sorry if that's the wrong word) of each color, perhaps with a dimmer, so you can adjust the white light in your living room to your own preferences? I remember those old projection televisions had three lamps; why didn't, say, ceiling fan lights ever get like that? Seems like it would be a cool thing, especially if you could use Photoshop (or something similar) to adjust the RGB values and then plug those numbers into the lamp.

I appreciate your expertise and thank you for your contribution to this discussion. If I say something that's technically ignorant, please remember this, the day I didn't correct your punctuation or spelling!

I'm no expert but I would suspect the lack of three-color ceiling fan lights would be because they don't focus their respective beam of light onto the same area to create the varying shades of white one wishes. Also, I figure the biggest reason would be cost.

However, in the LED world, this is fast becoming a reality as certain jets already have this feature to help create the varying lighting conditions to simulate day, sunrise, sunset, evening. The new 787 definitely touts this feature.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/gallery/k63450-09.html

Glen Miyashiro
July 14th, 2007, 07:24 AM
Somebody at the Advertiser is listening. Today's Bureaucracy Buster (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Jul/14/ln/FP707140316.html) tackles... you guessed it... mercury in CFLs. :p

glossyp
July 14th, 2007, 08:21 AM
Somebody at the Advertiser is listening. Today's Bureaucracy Buster (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Jul/14/ln/FP707140316.html) tackles... you guessed it... mercury in CFLs. :p
While I agree that the risk of mercury in a single CFL is minimal, the writer could have done a better service to the community by providing a link to the EPA guidelines or the Energy Star site where more detailed information on managing broken CFLs is available. The headline in itself is a bit misleading and anyone who doesn't read the entire piece won't understand the minimal safety precautions they should take when one is broken

Karen
July 14th, 2007, 12:03 PM
Glen, that's just the problem I have run into. That article reportedly is about the mercury? I'll check it out next but it's just my point...about the mercury and not the fire hazard of three way, dimmer, or totally enclosed fixtures. KGMB did a story on the mercury weeks ago when that's not the biggest issue with these things.

KSSK did email me back and said "thank you for the email. Will handle it." This is a start to bring correction and rewording to the current campaign to get us all to use them in all of our fixtures.

(mercury in them has never concerned me & this is why it's frustrating to keep hearing about the mercury, the mercury...when there's bigger issues with them)

acousticlady
July 14th, 2007, 01:33 PM
I appreciate your expertise and thank you for your contribution to this discussion. If I say something that's technically ignorant, please remember this, the day I didn't correct your punctuation or spelling!

Ha - not a problem! I am awful at that! They never made us take that in school. So if you don't mind my chiming in on the physics stuff, I have no problem with you teaching me to spell or punctuate stuff. I usually rely on spell check :o

As far as creating lights to change hues - good old incandescent lights would be a better option than gases. The problem with mixing gases is that you want the inert gases in the tubes you are using. Otherwise - kaboom:eek: The inert gases are subject to the laws of quantum mechanics and will only produce certain wavelengths. Green seems to be the biggest issue. Hydrogen will produce green, but only under certain conditions - like in a nebula cloud. Not so easy on earth. The old fashioned bulbs create their light using a solid material. All solids produce the full spectrum to some degree. This too is dependant on the material used and the temperature at which they are heated. When you look at a light bulb through a grating, you will see a "rainbow". Some of these will have a wider red section and very thin blue. You will then see the light as a reddish glow. As the temperature gets higher, the filiment glows more yellow. Heat it higher and it will glow toward the bluish end. Unfortunately, what makes the temperature increase is an increase in voltage. Here in America, we are stuck with 120 V maximum. Maybe in Europe.;)

Karen
July 14th, 2007, 02:14 PM
Dig this! A dear friend I have made online that lives in Canada reports that their country has outright banned the incandescents, and I didn't ask but sure, I bet there's a few years, well I hope a good amount of time for the phasing them out. I have been busy and haven't asked her yet about how educated they are about the possible hazards of the things the greenies have forced upon them.

GeckoGeek
July 14th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Now this should probably go under pet peeves, but...... neon tubes (or lights) will ONLY emit bright red light for the same reason mercury will only emit blue. ... So the next time you hear someone talk about the neon lights on Broadway, tell 'em if it ain't red, it ain't neon!

Having seen plenty of neon bulbs, isn't neon more of a orange then red? Or is that some other mixture of neon?



And lastly, they are working very hard to produce LEDs that will emit (collectively) white light. They have successfully produced red and blue but green is giving them a hard time. (I know the guys who are working on this.)

Odd. Green LEDs have been around for ages. Is the problem getting the right shade of green or getting enough light out of it?

GeckoGeek
July 14th, 2007, 02:31 PM
Why can't these same computers find a way to mix gases in amounts precise enough to mimic the character of any light conditions in any given region on any particular day?

I don't think you can mix gasses in a particular tube. The electrical characteristics aren't compatible. Mixing gases by the consumer isn't practical. If you mix the gases at manufacturing, then you have what we have now - you go the store and buy the color you want.

You could have separate tubes and mix them together. But then there's the cost issue. Not just the cost of the system, but the cost of operation.

GeckoGeek
July 14th, 2007, 02:59 PM
I'll check it out next but it's just my point...about the mercury and not the fire hazard of three way, dimmer, or totally enclosed fixtures. KGMB did a story on the mercury weeks ago when that's not the biggest issue with these things.

I beg to differ. First of all, let's exclude all the CFLs that are not UL approved or are falsely UL labeled. That's not a problem that's unique to CFLs. That's the whole reason that Underwriters Laboratory (http://www.ul.com/)exists is to catch devices that are not properly built and create a hidden safety issue. I'm not sure, but I believe that excludes the link I saw of a CFL where the plastic melted and actually caught fire. Feel free to correct me if it was UL approved.

It's possible that excluding non-UL approved CFLs would also exclude CFLs that have safety issues with 3-way sockets. I don't know. But I do think they should be removed from sale.

That leaves two other issues: Dimmer and totally enclosed. While they both present hazards to the CFL's life, they will not cause a fire hazard with a CFL that's been properly designed and tested to die safely (part of the UL tests). A CFL in a enclosed fixture will never get the fixture as hot as a incandescent.

Now, as far as the hazards, what about incandescents? They run much hotter. Placing too large a bulb into a fixture can overheat it and start a fire. Especially if the fixture is bolted to something flammable - like wood. If the bulb gets broken leaving the filament intact you get a shower of sparks. Have that happen over a carpet or some papers and you can have a fire.

So if there's a push for safety, it needs to be along the lines of "always use UL approved bulbs, always read and follow the directions that come with the bulb". But on a whole, CFLs are no more hazardous then the bulbs they replace.

GeckoGeek
July 14th, 2007, 03:07 PM
Unfortunately, what makes the temperature increase is an increase in voltage. Here in America, we are stuck with 120 V maximum. Maybe in Europe.;)

For a given bulb, voltage does determine temperature. But a bulb can be engineered for any voltage desired. Otherwise automotive bulbs that run on 12V wouldn't exist. The real issue is that the hotter the bulb, the shorter the life. Halogen lights are incandescents with a special design that allows them to run much hotter, and therefore more "white" then the common incandescents. Details. (http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProducts/AutomotiveLighting/Products/Halogen/HowHalogenWorks.htm) However, Halogen lights have to be used with some care because they do run hotter.

acousticlady
July 14th, 2007, 03:31 PM
For a given bulb, voltage does determine temperature. But a bulb can be engineered for any voltage desired.

Absolutely! In fact, common household bulbs can "run" on minimum voltage (err....current). In fact, I prove this in class using a variable voltage source. It's just that our standard power supply comes from the sockets in the walls. These are fixed. But dimmer switches work exactly that way.

acousticlady
July 14th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Having seen plenty of neon bulbs, isn't neon more of a orange then red? Or is that some other mixture of neon?

Odd. Green LEDs have been around for ages. Is the problem getting the right shade of green or getting enough light out of it?

Good call! yes, neon is more orangey (is that a word???) Actually, when you look at it's spectrum, neon displays many lines in both orange and red and even a few in green and yellow. Most people's eyes are less sensitive to changes between orange-red and red so in you took a poll, most would call it red.

I'm not real sure about what the exact problem is with the green LEDs. I'll ask and get back to you on that.

GeckoGeek
July 14th, 2007, 04:58 PM
In fact, common household bulbs can "run" on minimum voltage (err....current). Whichever. You have to have voltage to have current. You have have a power source that can supply the needed voltage and current "requested" by the load's impedance. (Sorry, I've seen too many people get wrapped up in that whole thing.)



In fact, I prove this in class using a variable voltage source. It's just that our standard power supply comes from the sockets in the walls. These are fixed. But dimmer switches work exactly that way.

If you've got a variac that's wired right, you can take up above the AC mains voltage. Another alternative is to see if you can get ahold of Japanese bulbs. They are 100V. A standard dimmer now becomes "dim", "normal" and "bright". :D

acousticlady
July 14th, 2007, 05:14 PM
Whichever. You have to have voltage to have current. You have have a power source that can supply the needed voltage and current "requested" by the load's impedance. (Sorry, I've seen too many people get wrapped up in that whole thing.)

If you've got a variac that's wired right, you can take up above the AC mains voltage. Another alternative is to see if you can get ahold of Japanese bulbs. They are 100V. A standard dimmer now becomes "dim", "normal" and "bright". :D

:D:D Not wanting to change the topic of the thread, but I just have to say - one of the reasons I love HT so much is the intellegence of everyone here. This conversation is just one example. But I don't just mean in the technical aspects either. Uh oh - I'm getting verklempt........

Karen
July 14th, 2007, 06:08 PM
Acousticlady, you got that right, this website, I think represents the best of Hawaii, people that know how to "agree to disagree" when necessary, folks that really know the islands, and care about others. I have learned so much at this place, and had fun & good laughs, too. I hope I am about to learn yet another thing, and it is...

the definition of "verklempt." :D

acousticlady
July 14th, 2007, 08:11 PM
Acousticlady, you got that right, this website, I think represents the best of Hawaii, people that know how to "agree to disagree" when necessary, folks that really know the islands, and care about others. I have learned so much at this place, and had fun & good laughs, too. I hope I am about to learn yet another thing, and it is...

the definition of "verklempt." :D

:) It is a take off from a Mike Myers character on Sat. Night Live. It is a Yiddish word meaning "all choked up"

Karen
July 15th, 2007, 10:30 AM
Ahh, Acousticlady, it is? thanks!

I'm impressed you also knew how to spell it. :D

acousticlady
July 15th, 2007, 05:31 PM
Ahh, Acousticlady, it is? thanks!

I'm impressed you also knew how to spell it. :D

:D yeah - especially since I have so much trouble with English....... but oops, we better get back on topic before we get in trouble :(

Karen
July 15th, 2007, 07:53 PM
Oops, my apologies, and back on topic.

Hubby's been tv surfing for maybe the last four hours and I've been ironing, working out and surfing net in that time. I have not heard any of the CFL tv commercials even one time. Hmmm....wonder if they'll be pulling them and redoing, soon.

tutusue
July 15th, 2007, 08:59 PM
[...] I have not heard any of the CFL tv commercials even one time. Hmmm....wonder if they'll be pulling them and redoing, soon.
Commercials are cycled on and off the air quite often, usually coinciding with a change in product emphasis (eg: McDonalds) or some event (eg: the old Taste of Honolulu). Possibly the CFL spots are taking advantage of the recent global warming/going "green" publicity. Sometimes I know the cycle schedules of local commercials and the reasons behind the cycles. I don't in this case.

Karen
July 16th, 2007, 08:32 AM
Sue, exactly. We'll see one heavily and then not at all. After posting this here, I saw Jade's on KGMB with the ten PM news.

craigwatanabe
July 16th, 2007, 10:27 AM
in the LED world, this is fast becoming a reality as certain jets already have this feature to help create the varying lighting conditions to simulate day, sunrise, sunset, evening. The new 787 definitely touts this feature.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/gallery/k63450-09.html

I've always wondered if we could produce a more natural light emitting diode or at least use them in combination to produce a more natural "Incandescent" emission of light.

I have a 96-LED flashlight (what I guess they couldn't fit four more to make it 100). And it produces a white light that is blinding!

BUT like for some, white LEDs produce a spectrum of light that sometimes doesn't seem to illuminate clearly as a single Krypton bulb from a Maglite flashlight. I was thinking of replacing maybe 15 of the white LEDS with the more common Yellow LEDs just to put some warmth into the beam of light.

One thing I noticed about LEDs (at least in the early 70's) was that standard incandescent grain of wheat panel bulbs took as much current as the LEDs did which meant no energy savings on battery consumption. Back in the early 70's when alkaline batteries were in their infancy, building compact portable electronic projects meant using the least power consuming components available. That's why CMOS chips became popular because of their lower power consumption. LEDs however at that time used as much current (amperes) as incandescent bulbs of the same size and lumens.

Plus if you ever put your finger on the backside of an LED those suckers get really hot telling me they use a lot of current.