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Rape comes in a new color: gray!

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  • Rape comes in a new color: gray!

    from cosmo magazine:

    Many experts feel that gray rape is in fact often a consequence of today’s hookup culture: lots of partying and flirting, plenty of alcohol, and ironically, the idea that women can be just as bold and adventurous about sex as men are.
    from the new york times:

    ...in the course of her reporting, Ms. Stepp said, she came across descriptions of “sexual encounters where usually both parties were very drunk and really didn’t know what they had said to each other the next morning.” In such cases, consent is uncertain. Such cases are more likely to emerge today, Ms. Stepp argued in the article, in an era when sexual boundaries and rules for women have loosened and when it has become socially acceptable for women to pursue casual sex.

    “Girls go after guys just as often as guys go after girls these days,” Ms. Stepp said at the panel. In her article, she wrote, “The odd thing about the current equal-opportunity hookup culture is that a lot of guys may feel as uncomfortable and confused as their dates do when things end up in bed.”

    ...

    “Is it possible that you could acquiesce at the beginning of the evening and by the time you’re too drunk to be heard or understood, it would be unfair for men to try to decipher when the no ends up actually arriving?” she asked.

    from gwhatchet.com:

    Senior James Daley woke up one morning naked and drunk in an unfamiliar apartment with condoms strewn about the room. A girl next to him rolled over and introduced herself.

    "My first thought was, where am I?" Daley said. "My second was that I have to get out of here as fast as possible."

    A friend filled Daley in about how he met the girl later that day.

    "I guess she bought me a lot of drinks that night," Daley said. "And then when a friend tried to take me home she said 'no, I think I'll take him home.'"

    Daley said he felt taken advantage of and would not have hooked up with her if he had not been so drunk.

    Was this rape? Sexual assault?
    from the campus word:

    Let me paint you another picture. At a frat party, there is a girl scantily clad in a mini skirt (so short, by the way, you can almost see the bottom of her ass), and a tank top with a plunging neckline. She is downing, and subsequently refilling her solow cup of jungle juice. She then picks out a brother who she wants to be her so-called “project” of the night. The two engage in flirtatious conversation and touching. Both are drunk, and it is obvious that she wants him. After an hour of being all over each other he asks her if she wants to “see his room” and she follows him upstairs. They begin to get down to business and in about a minute they are both naked on the frat boy’s bed. He asks if she wants to “you know” and she says “yes.” After he has successfully found and put on a condom he climbs on top of her and the right when he is at the cusp, she changes her mind and says drunkenly “actually…” But being so caught up in the moment, he disregards this as momentary insanity on her part and enters her anyway. Who is really to blame in this situation? Yes, the guy should have stopped when she said no, but didn’t she vehemently send the message that sex was what she wanted? I mean, she even showed up to the party looking like pure sex, so who is really at fault?
    imagine that you invited me to your home for a beer and to watch a movie. imagine that upon my arrival, you tell me to make myself at home and relax on the couch. imagine further that you left your wallet, full of hundred dollar bills, on the coffee table before me. suddenly, your phone rings, and you find that you need to step out for a minute but that you'll be back shortly. you walk out the door, leaving your bunch of benjamins to wink at me temptingly. if i take one or more of them, is that "gray theft?"

    of course not. it's plain old theft--a black and white issue.

    i'm utterly disgusted that rape is being discussed in shades of gray.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

  • #2
    Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

    Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
    "--a black and white issue."
    I agree. It's wrong. Just like I agree there's no excuse for domestic violence.

    That said...
    I have to say there are a lot of very unfair situations/circumstances going on,
    that end up sending people over the edge. On all sides of each issue.
    Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

      Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
      rape is being discussed in shades of gray.
      Are we talking legal theory or the realities of getting a conviction?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

        The Cosmo article addresses what I consider the point women in particular need to remember in this new "hook up" culture: "Many psychologists feel that the first step is to acknowledge the dangers inherent in the free-and-easy hookup approach to dating and sex."

        Excessive drinking paired with hormone-driven behavior can leave a person, male or female, vulnerable. I would never dream of telling a niece or young female friend that it is reasonable to do the following: dress provactively, get completely blasted on booze while coming on to some guy with all her charms, go into a private place with him and then be shocked when a sexual encounter she vaguely realizes she didn't really want happens.

        The freedom women have to exercise their sexuality goes along with personal responsiblity. The cases highlighted as 'gray rape' read to me like young women who regret their behavior in the harsh light of soberity - there's a reason they think they played a part in what happened - they did. Making the full responsiblity of stopping a sexual encounter on the male half of this drunken equation seems like old fashioned sexism to me.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

          Originally posted by glossyp View Post

          The freedom women have to exercise their sexuality goes along with personal responsiblity. The cases highlighted as 'gray rape' read to me like young women who regret their behavior in the harsh light of soberity - there's a reason they think they played a part in what happened - they did. Making the full responsiblity of stopping a sexual encounter on the male half of this drunken equation seems like old fashioned sexism to me.
          yet another area in which i vehemently disagree with you.

          referring to my previous example re the wallet: yeah, it's stupid to leave your wallet with all your money hanging out where anyone can take it from you. but you don't blame the person whose wallet was stolen, do you? i don't.

          yes, do what you can to protect your goodies (wallet, body, whatever). i will certainly raise any children i have to keep that lesson in mind at all times. but saying someone deserves to be violated bcs they didn't "protect" themselves better is good old fashioned "blaming the victim." a victim is a victim is a victim.

          another example to consider is what if a man went out to the club, got crazy drunk, and during his blackout, danced in the middle of the club and removed his pants, waving his pool stick about? does that give the surrounding women a right to help themselves to his penis and suck it? no. yes, the man might regret his behavior the next day, but it does not diminish from the fact that he was taken advantage of. guess what? what the women did to him was rape.

          it is no different to say to a woman that because she dressed provocatively and made out with a guy that she deserved him disregarding or ignoring any desire on her part to stop than it is to say to a woman that she deserved to be raped because she was walking down hotel street at midnight alone.

          simply put: if consent was not given clearly, and someone touches you sexually, it is sexual assault. if there was penetration in that instance, it is rape. there is no gray area.

          nevermind that even when a woman (or man) is completely sexually taken by force, the feelings of guilt and wondering if they were somehow complicit are just the same than in these BS "gray" examples.
          superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

          "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

          nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

            Just wanted to point out that I love both the quotes in your signature EC.

            People take advantage of others in many ways and there seems to be double standards sometimes. Wish everyone was kind and just, but that's not the way it is.

            I grew up in the sixties and truly believed "The Age of Aquarius" song was gonna come true. What a let down, eh?!
            Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

              Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
              simply put: if consent was not given clearly, and someone touches you sexually, it is sexual assault. if there was penetration in that instance, it is rape. there is no gray area.
              If consent was not given clearly? In an ideal world where everyone is 100% honest and no one drives over the speed limit, then yes. You are absolutely right.

              But we don't live in such a world, do we? When my daughter is old enough, I would not tell her to simply "not give clear consent" if someone made unwanted sexual advance towards her. I would tell her to firmly and clearly say NO!

              Simply not giving consent, but at the same time, not saying no is making it a guessing game. And this is what leads to trouble.

              One can argue forever and a day whether "Alice's" date in the Cosmo article should be convicted of date rape or not. But what good is that? The damage is already done. When it comes to my daughter, I want her to not be afraid to assert herself and say "no!" to anyone she doesn't want to have sex with. And if, God forbid, someone does rape her, then that scumbag will know that he forced himself upon her. (Heaven help him if I ever get my hands on 'em!) It won't be a case of either of them wondering whether it was rape or not.

              This is assuming, of course, that the victim was not drunk or maliciously drugged by the rapist. In those situations, it would be totally understandable that a rape victim would not be able to say no to their assailant.
              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                One can argue forever and a day whether "Alice's" date in the Cosmo article should be convicted of date rape or not. But what good is that? The damage is already done. When it comes to my daughter, I want her to not be afraid to assert herself and say "no!" to anyone she doesn't want to have sex with. And if, God forbid, someone does rape her, then that scumbag will know that he forced himself upon her. (Heaven help him if I ever get my hands on 'em!) It won't be a case of either of them wondering whether it was rape or not.
                Exactly. When I was in college I got a phone call late one night telling me I needed to come to the hospital because my roommate had been admitted with serious injuries. She had been out on a third date with a seemingly nice young man. They had dinner, went to a movie and then to the local makeout spot. No alcohol was involved. When she didn't want to do anything other than kissing, he became angry. She fought back. He strangled her to stop her from screaming, gave her two black eyes, broke a tooth. cracked two ribs and raped her. He then tossed her out of the car unconscious and speed off. Luckily, a young couple just pulling up saw her and the young woman (who was a nursing student) tended to her while they rushed her to the hospital. When they arrested the rapist, he had scratch marks and a torn lip. That is what I call date rape - not some booze-fueled sexual encounter that neither party was coherent enough to stop.

                My friend testified, the rapist was convicted and went to prison. My friend is now happily married with children. There was never a question in her mind as to whether she was somehow responsible for what happened to her. She was and is glad she fought back even though she suffered for it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                  Originally posted by glossyp View Post
                  That is what I call date rape - not some booze-fueled sexual encounter that neither party was coherent enough to stop.
                  wow. how much judgment you pass! so basically, in your view, unless a woman fights a man off tooth and nail, it's not rape?

                  if your daughter came home one night and told you that three days ago, she got drunker than she should have, and some guy pressed her up against a wall, took down her panties and shoved his dick into her, but she was too inebriated to fight him off or even tell him no, what are you gonna tell her?

                  she deserved it?

                  too bad?

                  oh well? nothing can be done now?

                  just....wow.
                  superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                  "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                  nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                    Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                    referring to my previous example re the wallet: yeah, it's stupid to leave your wallet with all your money hanging out where anyone can take it from you. but you don't blame the person whose wallet was stolen, do you? i don't.
                    Or perhaps look at how much blame is being tossed around in the thread regarding the poor toddler who was thrown from the freeway overpass. One person clearly committed the crime - yet there seem to be many people who get tainted with some of the stain.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                      Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                      wow. how much judgment you pass!
                      just....wow.
                      And so are you!

                      1) Someone I know was dragged off into the bushes when she was 16 and raped. She fought as best she could.
                      They never caught the man. This was before she had given herself to anyone. How unfair.

                      2) I know someone else from back in high school, who had sex then regretted it the next day and blamed the boy. All the parents got together to talk and the girl recanted and accepted the fact that she "just did something she wished she hadn't."
                      Could've destroyed his life. How unfair.
                      Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                        If a peson cannot be held responsible for murder because he was under the influence of a mind altering drug and have that murder charge dropped, then why can't a person who is charged with rape also get that charge dropped because he was under the influence of a mind altering drug (alcohol)?

                        Yes rape is rape, however if you lead the perpetrator into an act of sex aren't you as guilty for creating the situation in the first place? Rape is a crime and in most cases of criminal intent if you conspire to commit a crime you are just as guilty. Just because you change your mind before the crime is commited that still makes you guilty of it after it's done...its a point of law.
                        Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                          Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                          wow. how much judgment you pass! so basically, in your view, unless a woman fights a man off tooth and nail, it's not rape?

                          if your daughter came home one night and told you that three days ago, she got drunker than she should have, and some guy pressed her up against a wall, took down her panties and shoved his dick into her, but she was too inebriated to fight him off or even tell him no, what are you gonna tell her?

                          she deserved it?

                          too bad?

                          oh well? nothing can be done now?

                          just....wow.
                          Wow - that's a lot of assumption about me on your part. We've been discussing 'gray rape' which, according to the examples given in the articles, I do not consider date rape. I then gave an example of what I do consider date rape. So, we have two extreme examples - one that our legal system and the majority of people would consider rape and the other where there is so much gray there is plenty of disagreement about whether it is rape or not. You extrapolate from my opinion on 'gray rape' that I would be uncaring if my daughter was attacked. By the way, too little information on what actually happened to my hypothetical daughter for me to form an opinion - though you pretty much assumed what it would be, so why bother?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                            I don't think anyone here is condoning the act of forcibly committing sex with anyone through any means, including devious use of drugs and alcohol. The difference in the viewpoints expressed here seems to center around the degree of responsibility that BOTH parties (not just the guy) has when it comes to the matter of consensual sex/date rape.

                            Here's my personal viewpoint on the matter. (And remember, it's just MY opinion as it applies to my family.) Me and my wife wouldn't want to teach our children that it is solely the responsibility of the guys when it comes to having sex or not because we believe in instilling within our girls a healthy sense of EMPOWERMENT in whatever relationship they become involved in. We wouldn't want them to become passive partners who constantly rely upon their boyfriends/husbands to do "the right thing." I think that this is important because having a strong sense of confidence and assertiveness are traits where the long-term benefits go way beyond the ability of a female being able to tell a guy NO when it comes to sex.

                            Of course, there are situations where guys act like punks and force themselves on their partners, even when NO is clearly said. For those guys, I agree. Throw the book at them. But at least it cannot be said that the rapist didn't know what was coming when the consequences are laid out.

                            NO means NO, indeed.
                            This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                              And if the guy can't fathom the word "NO" then a bit of TAE BOE is in order here.
                              Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                              Comment

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