Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

[adrian]

When I mean small bikes, I mean those bikes that are a mini version of Kawasakis and Hondas, and little kids/adults ride on them for fun.

Both of my neighbors have those, but the neighbor on our right (young adults who also have import racing cars) have them, but they don't ride them around the neighborhood (I guess they have somewhere else to polute the noise w/). But the neighbor on the left, (young family w/ young kids and whose house was occupied by a drinking elderly who died there BTW), their kid (somewhat chubby middle school boy) rides it everyday.

We never had problems with any of our neighbors, but that noise is getting annoying. He rides it from the backyard to the front of the house, around the neighborhood, and back, then repeats it several times.

[Miulang]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

We never had problems with any of our neighbors, but that noise is getting annoying. He rides it from the backyard to the front of the house, around the neighborhood, and back, then repeats it several times.

Many cities up here on the Mainland have noise ordinances and rules against bikes and other two-wheeled appliances (including the Segway) from riding on sidewalks. Maybe it's time the City of Honolulu passed something like that. Those bikes are not only annoying because of the buzzing sound they make, but they are also dangerous because most of the time the people riding them (looks like mostly the preteen and teen age groups) have no concept of common sense or the most basic safety rules of the road. They generally don't wear helmets either, so when they fall and crack their little coconuts on the pavement, somebody ends up paying a huge hospital bill to patch them up so they can go back to being lolo .

Miulang

[mel]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

Many cities up here on the Mainland have noise ordinances and rules against bikes and other two-wheeled appliances (including the Segway) from riding on sidewalks. Maybe it's time the City of Honolulu passed something like that. [/I] .

The city just did.

This is probably the first salvo into an overall ban on all city and state parks as well as streets. For sure I'd support a ban on using these things on streets because motorists can't see them because of their small size. The places that sell these things say they are not for street use.

Best place for these bikes are probably at the race track or places where they do motocross racing.

[scrivener]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

This kind of thing annoys the heck out of me, and I don't mean the little bikes.

Yes, they're small and difficult to see, but so is the little man in the electric wheelchair, and we don't ban him from sidewalks or roads. I am not saying that the little bikes shouldn't be disallowed from streets (oh wait--maybe I am), but what it comes down to is old(er) people being irritated by something noisy that young(er) people find fun.

My feeling is that we should keep these things off major roadways, such as Nimitz Highway, School Street, or King Street, but riding these in neighborhoods should be totally okay. Little kids are difficult to see, but we don't restrict their bike-riding, skating, or jump-roping to parks.

Noise is undoubtedly an issue, but we already have noise-related ordinances in place. If you're going to ban noise-making bikes from neighborhoods, you'd better be ready to ban lawn-mowing, leaf-blowing, and cheering during UH football games.

There's no need to create new laws every time some new toy comes about. What we need to do is ask ourselves if the current laws cover the new fads already. Do the bikes make more noise than is already illegal? Fine--cite offenders for the violations, but don't ban the bikes. What if some of them fall within the legal noise-making bounds?

Is safety an issue? Okay. Cite people for reckless endangerment or whatever, but if people are riding the bikes in a safe, law-abiding manner, why make them suffer, too?

I don't like these things, myself, and never plan to ride one or buy one for someone I love, but it makes no sense to create new laws every time something comes up that normal people don't understand. If laws are being broken, the violators should face the consequences, but if people are merely irritated, well, it's not illegal to irritate your neighbors and you don't have a constitutional right to freedom from irritation.

[pzarquon]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

I think these things should be regulated. Noise might be what got most folks up in arms (like those gas powered scooters a while ago, the ban on which most folks got around by adding seats!), but it's primarily a safety issue to me. Especially since some of these models definitely are way too much power and speed to put into the hands of kids in an unregulated (non-track, non-supervised) environment.

Little kids are difficult to see, but we don't restrict their bike-riding, skating, or jump-roping to parks.

Actually, I think skating isn't allowed in parks, except for those built to accomodate 'em. And I think it's more than just a knee-jerk reaction to things people don't understand, or square grown-ups trying to mess with something cool. A foot-powered skateboard or a jump-rope isn't going to propel you into an intersection at 20-40 mph... crouched three feet off the ground. If someone came up with a 100mph rocket-powered hoverpad for kids, I sure as hell hope those would be regulated somehow, too.

There are some things kids like that they simply can't play with at home. Dirt bikes have to be taken to the track. Horses (I'm guessing) have to be ridden on private property. It doesn't seem out of line to me to say these "pocket rockets" should be similarly controlled.

After all, riding these things on private property, or doing anything on private property, is fine, obviously. It's when you're dealing with public streets and unsuspecting pedestrians or motorists that raises red flags.

I agree, though, rather than creating a hodgepodge of new laws, there must be a way to determine if these things are covered by laws already on the books, or to revise existing laws to include them. The law in the article linked specifically linked just bans 'em in parks -- adding 'em to the list of things you see on the sign at every park relating to various prohibited activities, I guess. But cutting back on the areas where they can be used, one at a time, is the wrong way to go, IMHO.

Just regulate their sale in the first place, with permit requirements just like bikes, and perhaps add an age limit (since they are motor powered with more horsepower than, say, the Playskool Barbie Jeep a 6-year-old would use). In fact, since horsepower is a measure for what can get on an Interstate, I can't see why a similar setup can't be put in place to cover city and state roads.

"If you want to ride a powered vehicle that has more than {x} horsepower or that can go faster than {y} miles per hour, you need {z}." Hopefully, this could plan ahead for those space-age hoverpads, too!

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

If someone came up with a 100mph rocket-powered hoverpad for kids, I sure as hell hope those would be regulated somehow, too.

Damn. So much for a Back to the Future III future.

Actually, those mini-motorcycles make me think of Stuart Little's mini-motorcar, zipping in and out of Real Traffic. I wonder how long it will be before some idiot riding one of those things gets creamed by a full-size vehicle?

[Miulang]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

This kind of thing annoys the heck out of me, and I don't mean the little bikes.

Yes, they're small and difficult to see, but so is the little man in the electric wheelchair, and we don't ban him from sidewalks or roads. I am not saying that the little bikes shouldn't be disallowed from streets (oh wait--maybe I am), but what it comes down to is old(er) people being irritated by something noisy that young(er) people find fun.

My feeling is that we should keep these things off major roadways, such as Nimitz Highway, School Street, or King Street, but riding these in neighborhoods should be totally okay. Little kids are difficult to see, but we don't restrict their bike-riding, skating, or jump-roping to parks.

Noise is undoubtedly an issue, but we already have noise-related ordinances in place. If you're going to ban noise-making bikes from neighborhoods, you'd better be ready to ban lawn-mowing, leaf-blowing, and cheering during UH football games.

There's no need to create new laws every time some new toy comes about. What we need to do is ask ourselves if the current laws cover the new fads already. Do the bikes make more noise than is already illegal? Fine--cite offenders for the violations, but don't ban the bikes. What if some of them fall within the legal noise-making bounds?

Is safety an issue? Okay. Cite people for reckless endangerment or whatever, but if people are riding the bikes in a safe, law-abiding manner, why make them suffer, too?

I don't like these things, myself, and never plan to ride one or buy one for someone I love, but it makes no sense to create new laws every time something comes up that normal people don't understand. If laws are being broken, the violators should face the consequences, but if people are merely irritated, well, it's not illegal to irritate your neighbors and you don't have a constitutional right to freedom from irritation.

Sometimes laws are needed because people don't have enough common sense not to do things which could cause physical harm; in other words, some laws are created to protect people from themselves. Oh wait...maybe we shouldn't have laws like that and let Darwin's Law get rid of those subhumans...It's not about old people being irritated by those little rice burners. It's that the kids who ride them aren't being supervised and haven't learned to use their coconuts that duh..."if I ride this thing into the street, what are the odds that I'm going to get creamed by an SUV?" Or "What if I'm riding on the sidewalk and somebody who's old cannot get out of my way in time for me not to run them over?"

There's also a public health risk with the noise pollution. You know those kids who have those souped up cars and mega watt sound systems that they insist on cranking up to the highest volumes? 30 or 40 years from now, a lot of them are going to be deaf, and then it becomes a public health issue. Us guys who were children of the 60s remember the heavy metal groups and the loud music then. How many of us now have hearing problems? It's not just about how old we are...it's how we treated our hearing when we were younger.

Miulang

[mel]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

Damn. So much for a Back to the Future III future.

The 3rd movie in that series went back into time... 1880s and the old west. The only thing futuristic was the broken DeLorean, the stuff they did to the train and hoverboard that Marty McFly had brought back from the 2nd movie, which did indeed go some years into the future beyond the 1980s premise of the movies.

[scrivener]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

in other words, some laws are created to protect people from themselves. Oh wait...maybe we shouldn't have laws like that and let Darwin's Law get rid of those subhumans...

I understand that some people feel this way, but I don't understand why. It's really none of my business what you want to do to yourself, as long as you don't do it to me, too. If we truly believed, as a society, that we needed laws that protected people from their own foolish choices, we'd put limits on the number of Big Macs you could legally eat, or the number of cigarettes you could legally smoke, or we'd make mandatory exercise laws to get everyone off their lazy butts. But we don't do that because it's really every American's right to injure or kill him- or herself in any manner that doesn't trod upon anyone else's right not to.

It's not about old people being irritated by those little rice burners. It's that the kids who ride them aren't being supervised and haven't learned to use their coconuts

Now this, I can agree with. Kids, of course, need to be protected, but let's say I can teach my kids to use these things with utmost care. Then, they're having fun and not endangering others or even really themselves. Yeah, make it illegal for kids to be doing it under certain circumstances, but let's encourage responsible play rather than no play at all. That seems fairer.

There's also a public health risk with the noise pollution. You know those kids who have those souped up cars and mega watt sound systems that they insist on cranking up to the highest volumes? 30 or 40 years from now, a lot of them are going to be deaf, and then it becomes a public health issue. Us guys who were children of the 60s remember the heavy metal groups and the loud music then. How many of us now have hearing problems? It's not just about how old we are...it's how we treated our hearing when we were younger.

Absolutely true; but hey--I listened to TONS of loud music growing up. I limited the volume and I limited the LENGTH of time (because long exposure to moderate volume is probably more harmful than short exposure to loud volume) I listened to the metal bands of the day, and my hearing is still fantastic (my mental health is another story). Again, let's encourage safe play without banning the play altogether.

I like Ryan's idea (it's amazing that we can have so much regard for each other when we seem to differ so much on so manny issues)--don't ban everything outright, just make it illegal to participate in a way that jeopardizes others' well-being.

Besides. It's obvious that this is a fad, and fads come and go of their own volition. As all teachers repeat to themselves when any annoying fad hits the schools: "This, too, shall pass."

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

The 3rd movie in that series went back into time... 1880s and the old west. The only thing futuristic was the broken DeLorean, the stuff they did to the train and hoverboard that Marty McFly had brought back from the 2nd movie, which did indeed go some years into the future beyond the 1980s premise of the movies.

Whoops, you're right. I was thinking of the 2nd movie.

[adrian]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

The city just did.

Finally.

Lately (probably this week) I haven't heard the little boy's "motorcycle" lately.

But my other next door neighbor, now that's a problem.

He has the bikes, and import cars. At night (probably around 10), they drag the gate stop (for those who live in Waipahu/Kalihi, you know what I talk about; those big 6ft black bar gates that swings open; mostly found at filipino residents) from the closed position, to the open position, and they don't even care to do it quietly, I think they just unlatch it, and push the stop until it can't go anymore. Then they rev up their engines, and burn rubber out onto the street (but they have to turn in a couple of yards so they shifted for nothing).

Sorry for the OT, but these people are just annoying me. We're trying to sleep and some of us gets up at 5:00 for work/school.

[Miulang]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

I understand that some people feel this way, but I don't understand why. It's really none of my business what you want to do to yourself, as long as you don't do it to me, too. If we truly believed, as a society, that we needed laws that protected people from their own foolish choices, we'd put limits on the number of Big Macs you could legally eat, or the number of cigarettes you could legally smoke, or we'd make mandatory exercise laws to get everyone off their lazy butts. But we don't do that because it's really every American's right to injure or kill him- or herself in any manner that doesn't trod upon anyone else's right not to.



Now this, I can agree with. Kids, of course, need to be protected, but let's say I can teach my kids to use these things with utmost care. Then, they're having fun and not endangering others or even really themselves. Yeah, make it illegal for kids to be doing it under certain circumstances, but let's encourage responsible play rather than no play at all. That seems fairer.



Absolutely true; but hey--I listened to TONS of loud music growing up. I limited the volume and I limited the LENGTH of time (because long exposure to moderate volume is probably more harmful than short exposure to loud volume) I listened to the metal bands of the day, and my hearing is still fantastic (my mental health is another story). Again, let's encourage safe play without banning the play altogether.

I like Ryan's idea (it's amazing that we can have so much regard for each other when we seem to differ so much on so manny issues)--don't ban everything outright, just make it illegal to participate in a way that jeopardizes others' well-being.

Besides. It's obvious that this is a fad, and fads come and go of their own volition. As all teachers repeat to themselves when any annoying fad hits the schools: "This, too, shall pass."

Congrats to you! May you live long and prosper and have kids who are as responsible as you. Unfortunately, there are too many kids running amuck with no supervision. They are our future??

Can't really let Darwin take care of those miscreants; more often than not, society (meaning you and me) ends up subsidizing the medical bills.

And the people who tried to sue McD's for making them morbidly obese? Well, all those cases got laughed out of the courts. Those definitely were frivolous cases, but guess what? If those obese people are on Social Security or don't have health care, who pays for their medical expenses when they get sick?

"American freedom" shouldn't only be about an individual's rights: it should also be about what each individual's actions are doing to this society. The old cause and effect, choice and consequence conundrum.

I am a firm believer of the cyclical nature of history. So for those of you who think all this stuff that's happening now has never happened before and never will again, please go back to your history books so you can get an inkling of what's to come. Remember ancient Greece and Rome and what happened to them? I think we're headed in that direction right now.

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

I understand that some people feel this way, but I don't understand why. It's really none of my business what you want to do to yourself, as long as you don't do it to me, too.

For the most part, I agree. I can see where motorcyclists are coming from when they complain about mandatory helmet laws, and for the same reasons, I can see how seat belt laws can be criticized as well. Protecting other people, fine, protecting me from my stupidity, it depends. For the rest of us, we chant "Darwin! Darwin!" and move on.

Except. Death by mini motorbike can involve a single mom's minivan as easily as it can a brick wall or telephone pole. And even if common sense says (1.) mini motorbike riding kid was being stupid and is 80 percent liable, and (2.) mini motorbike buying, non-supervising parent is 19 percent liable... you bet your sweet bippy the legal system will make a mess of it all, turning that last one percent of liability into something that completely destroys the life of an innocent third party who was just going out that day to buy a gallon of milk.

This is how the argument can fall apart. You might not have endangered someone else's safety as you killed yourself, but if you involvedsomeone else, it's still a major problem.

If we truly believed, as a society, that we needed laws that protected people from their own foolish choices, we'd put limits on the ... number of cigarettes you could legally smoke...

Well, we do regulate who can buy cigarettes, and over time we've learned that second-hand smoke means smokers aren't just killing themselves, hence current laws forbidding smoking in shared, public spaces.

Not exercizing? Eating too much? Legislation probably wouldn't work, but as Miulang noted, it's not quite a victimless act, either. Stupidity in all its forms costs everyone, one way or another. (I wonder if Darwin's larger theory accounts for that?)

Kids, of course, need to be protected, but let's say I can teach my kids to use these things with utmost care. Then, they're having fun and not endangering others or even really themselves.

And if every parent was as responsible, you're right, why worry? But, again, the fact of the matter is, most parents aren't.

Besides, a parent can teach a kid to be an excellent marksman with a pistol, a responsible gun owner and user... but I think I'd still have problems with that kid being sent to the corner park with a piece. It's not so black and white. I suppose we just disagree on whether these mini motorbikes are more like skateboards (safe and only lightly regulated) or more like motorcycles (dangerous and licensed).

don't ban everything outright, just make it illegal to participate in a way that jeopardizes others' well-being.

If you can reach this compromise, then, is the linked park ban law a reasonable attempt at this, after all? Or do such laws still generally annoy the heck out of you?

My take on it is still to control access to the bikes rather than where they can use them. But even the latter can work -- just classify them the same way we classify off-road dirt bikes: Fine, but not street legal. Take them to the track.

I wonder how long it will be before some idiot riding one of those things gets creamed by a full-size vehicle?

I can just hear the chorus of "I told you so" now. But as I mentioned above, while the cynical among us will smirk at natural selection in action, the "victim" (the moron on the bike) will get the last laugh in civil court. Or at least, his surviving family will...

[pzarquon]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

I agree, though, rather than creating a hodgepodge of new laws, there must be a way to determine if these things are covered by laws already on the books, or to revise existing laws to include them.

Okay, so I'm quoting myself, but not surprisingly, pocket bikes are not so new so as to require new laws.

KITV reported today that HPD has put pocket bike riders on notice: Pocket bikes, classified as "motor vehicles" under state law but unlicensed, are therefore prohibited on streets, sidewalks, in parks, or in schools, among other places. Violators will be cited, fined, and in some cases, their bikes can be seized.

Some cases? Make it all cases! After all, the darn things can easily fit in the trunk of a police cruiser... or the back of an SUV.

[adrian]

Re: Who has neighbors w/ those small bikes?

Okay, so I'm quoting myself, but not surprisingly, pocket bikes are not so new so as to require new laws.

KITV reported today that HPD has put pocket bike riders on notice: Pocket bikes, classified as "motor vehicles" under state law but unlicensed, are therefore prohibited on streets, sidewalks, in parks, or in schools, among other places. Violators will be cited, fined, and in some cases, their bikes can be seized.

Some cases? Make it all cases! After all, the darn things can easily fit in the trunk of a police cruiser... or the back of an SUV.

Saw it on all of the news stations this afternoon.

Now I just heard a low buzzing sound that sounds like those pocket bikes coming behind me on the Pearl Harbor/Waipahu Bike Route by Waipahu Depot Road (between the drainage canal and the HFD maintanance facility).

TIP: THAT BIKE PATH IS ONE HELLA STRAIGHT PATH WHERE YOU CAN GAIN FAST SPEEDS.