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  • Same Sex marriage

    Sorry to bring this topic here, but I want to know what Hawaii people feel about it.

    I feel that it shouldn't be legalized (anywhere) because why do we need it? We've been having traditional marriages since humans walked this earth, and why should we start now?

    If this gets legalized, what will stop people from "pushing" other rights? Euthanasia, marijuana, abortion? They're just ripping the christian beliefs down to the ground.

    Discuss.
    How'd I get so white and nerdy?

  • #2
    Re: Same Sex marriage

    I don't believe they should legalize same sex marriages in the same context
    as traditional marriages. But I do believe they should have the right
    to form civil unions.

    In regards to other things being pushed upon us. I believe some of the things
    you mentioned should be legaliazed. But that is O/T.
    Check out my blog on Kona issues :
    The Kona Blog

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    • #3
      Re: Same Sex marriage

      Originally posted by Aaron S
      I don't believe they should legalize same sex marriages in the same context
      as traditional marriages. But I do believe they should have the right
      to form civil unions.

      In regards to other things being pushed upon us. I believe some of the things
      you mentioned should be legaliazed. But that is O/T.
      Heterosexual marriages are only the norm in Western societies (I won't go into polygamy and polyandry that some other cultures practice). So in America, same sex marriages should probably not be legalized (to keep the homophobes from freaking out). I think civil unions, like domestic partnerships (i.e., "living in sin"), have become rather commonplace now. Some domestic partnerships have the same longevity (or longer) as heterosexual couples. With divorces so common now, I think couples in domestic partnerships and civil unions should be granted the same rights to inheritance and health benefits especially, that heterosexual partners enjoy.

      Miulang
      Last edited by Miulang; October 4, 2004, 07:00 PM.
      "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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      • #4
        Re: Same Sex marriage

        Originally posted by adri1456
        I feel that it shouldn't be legalized (anywhere) because why do we need it? We've been having traditional marriages since humans walked this earth, and why should we start now?
        You might not need it but what about those who do? Keep in mind that traditional marriages are not going away or out of style because of same sex unions.

        If this gets legalized, what will stop people from "pushing" other rights? Euthanasia, marijuana, abortion? They're just ripping the christian beliefs down to the ground.
        Abortion is legal in this country and this was done without pushing same sex unions. Then again not everyone are doing abortions because it is legal.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Same Sex marriage

          Hoo boy, Adri, you're gonna hear a lot in this thread.

          First: same-sex couples should have the same legal right to marry as mixed-sex couples. Every court in the country that has examined this issue has come to the same conclusion. There is no valid basis in the U.S. Constitution to deny same-sex couples equal protection under the law. One day, Hawaii's same-sex constitutional ban will be examined by the U.S. Supreme Court and overthrown.


          Originally posted by adri1456
          If this gets legalized, what will stop people from "pushing" other rights? Euthanasia
          You mean, a patient's right to decide when and where and how he wants to die? Yup.

          (Recent news: Two weeks ago, the Florida Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the recently passed law on the Terry Schiavo case violated the separation of powers clause in Florida's constitution by essentially allowing Governor Jeb Bush to overturn a lower court's decision allowing Terri's estranged husband Michael to end her life.)


          marijuana,
          Yup. It should be legalized, and regulated, and taxed, just like alcohol and tobacco.


          abortion?
          Last I saw, this was still legal.


          They're just ripping the christian beliefs down to the ground.
          And who says that Christian beliefs are the ones we should follow? What I have seen of people who profess "Christian" beliefs makes me disgusted with Christianity. Christ was a good man, but too many of his followers are just plain evil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Same Sex marriage

            Originally posted by adri1456
            Sorry to bring this topic here, but I want to know what Hawaii people feel about it.
            What's with the apology? I think we can have a pretty reasonable conversation about any topic. I just hope you're prepared to hear opinions you might not agree with, and I hope we all can make ourselves clear without personal attacks.

            We've been having traditional marriages since humans walked this earth, and why should we start now?
            This is most certainly not universally true. At most it's 5,000 years old (becoming an issue when paternity became a social consideration), and suffice it to say, humans have been roaming around considerably longer than that. I won't deny it's a longstanding Western tradition, but it's not an inherently natural, human practice.

            I favor gay marriage, but can understand that progress is a gradual thing, and see the oft-offered compromise of "civil unions" to be a reasonable first step.

            Indeed, ideally, I think government should get out of the marriage business entirely. Any and all churches can define what they consider "marriage," and the government's sole interest should be whether or not the parties have meanwhile entered into a legal contract.

            As for those who ask, "Why?" I answer, "Why not?" My marriage sure as hell isn't being thretened by a lesbian couple's marriage... and there are lots of other tangible threats to the stable family unit than -- the horror! -- other stable family units. When the first same-sex marriages were performed, here and in Europe, the world didn't end... there was just a small, imperceptible increase in the overall amount of joy and love in the world.

            The procreation argument is a non-starter. Go far enough down that road, and you could reasonably argue that emphatically childless couples (or medically so) shouldn't be granted the benefits of marriage, either.

            If we can expand the definition of "person" to include slaves, if we can expand the definition of "voter" to include women, we can expand marriage to recognize the earnest and genuine desire of two consenting adults to form a legally and spiritually valid couple.

            If this gets legalized, what will stop people from "pushing" other rights? Euthanasia, marijuana, abortion? They're just ripping the christian beliefs down to the ground.
            Well, by throwing all this into the mix, you've broadened this conversation quite a bit! I'll just broadly state that Christian beliefs are not the sole arbiters of what's right and wrong. Lots of reasonable people oppose or favor the rights you mention, regardless of the influence of Christianity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Same Sex marriage

              dang, I'm just getting pulverized here.

              I need to start researching my positions next time.

              I'm christian, and believe that things should stay traditional. I don't know where people stand on the other issues, but I don't think same sex marriage, abortion, or euthanasia should be legal.

              I know that same sex marriage doesn't hurt anyone, but what I'm looking at, is the future. A lot of things happened when something is made legal, and most of it is bad. Abortion should be a last option for a mother, not because she made a stupid mistake of not wearing a condom, or didn't take the morning after pill. The gov't needs to help people in those situations by providing the coverage incase those things do happen. And someone that doesn't have a voice (or the ability to speak) doesn't mean that their spouse or brother can decide what they could do. Everyone has the right to live, and the only way someone can take their life, is by suicide, or some other form of dying. In the wrong hands, euthanasia can manipulated into a legal document, and if a person is ill "beyond repair", they have the right to "ride it out" no matter how painful the suffering is.

              (sheesh, you're a few days on school break, and your brain gets fried already.)
              Last edited by adrian; October 4, 2004, 08:34 PM.
              How'd I get so white and nerdy?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Same Sex marriage

                dang, I'm just getting pulverized here.
                Just don't take it personally. Depending on who you ask, this board is supposedly over-run with left-wing tree huggers, in which case you were destined to be in the minority. In the other hand, we know from the abortion thread that there are probably people who'd agree with you that same-sex marriage is a bad thing... they just haven't found this thread yet.
                Originally posted by adri1456
                I know that same sex marriage doesn't hurt anyone, but what I'm looking at, is the future. A lot of things happened when something is made legal, and most of it is bad.
                I'm really curious about some of the examples you might cite. After all, women's sufferage was legalized, marriage between people of different ethnicities was legalized, freedom for slaves was legalized... I'd say these acts definitely fall into the "good" column.

                Abortion has always been around, only now it is safe and regulated and doesn't require a mother to risk her life to find a willing practitioner. Euthanasia has always been around, it only has a formal name today, and is being written into law to protect physicians and loved ones for their acts of mercy.

                Anyway, if, generally speaking, you mean "legalize" to mean the expansion of rights or access to something, I don't think you can claim the majority of such decisions to have been bad ones.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Same Sex marriage

                  What's with the apology? I think we can have a pretty reasonable conversation about any topic. I just hope you're prepared to hear opinions you might not agree with, and I hope we all can make ourselves clear without personal attacks.
                  A word of warning to anyone here with traditional and conservative values.

                  As someone who was name called and raked over the coals on a supposedly non-political topic, I have learned to stay clear of these volatile political discussions, especially if you don't agree with the liberals who populate this board. They are outspoken and will tear you down at every opportunity they get, whether the political topic is the Presidency, the war, a myriad of social and economic issues, and more.

                  dang, I'm just getting pulverized here.
                  Adri, I feel sorry for you for having started this topic. It is like you just lit a match next to a giant oil refinery. It is going to get very volatile here. Try and bail out before it gets too crazy and let the liberals pontificate among themselves.

                  Stick to the safe topics like movies, lunch, entertainment and computers.

                  The political frying pan over here is too heated to only one side of most arguments.
                  I'm still here. Are you?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Same Sex marriage

                    Aw, Mel, not again! Adri may very well have found himself, so far, in the minority in this topic (fortunately for him, he's in the majority overall), but I think the contrary responses have been thoughtful, and more importantly, Adri seems open to hearing what we have to say.

                    I'd really wish you'd stop painting everyone on HawaiiThreads.com with a broad brush, not so much as a heavily liberal-leaning group (which we could be), but as a group that can't have a civilized discussion, or one that's open to different opinions.

                    Karen has almost singlehandedly defended Bush in the "Bush v. Kerry" threads, and yet the conversation has remained civil, sometimes positively playful. Meanwhile, the abortion thread found a relatively even split between pro-choice and pro-life participants. Even the infamous Wal-Mart threads had, in their prime, a good mix of "I love Wal-Mart!" and "I hate Wal-Mart." If you recall, I joined you in the "I love Wal-Mart!" camp.

                    That first Wal-Mart thread is just about the only one I can think of where things boiled over... but then again, it got to the point where it was being whipped into a froth on purpose, in the hopes of breaking the "longest thread ever" record. :P

                    Once again, I think, it comes down to having conviction in your beliefs, and an appreciation for debate. Karen and may be in opposite camps, but I'm glad she's around to share her views. And when you were willing to stand up as a die-hard Republican (rather than holding back and dismissing us all on the political front), I was glad you were there, too.

                    Even if we know we won't change any minds, a colorful and diverse conversation is good for all our minds in general.

                    But, I suppose, I agree with you on one point: If facing differences of opinion, and the occasional flare-up, make you uncomfortable, you can steer clear of political and moral debates (though that would include interjecting just to say "You're all a bunch of liberals so you won't listen to what I have to say anyway!"). I've given up on Wal-Mart myself - there's lots of other stuff to talk about.

                    In general, though, if you stick only to food and movies, I think you'll be missing out on some of the best conversation we've got!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Same Sex marriage

                      To each his own.
                      La'akea

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                      • #12
                        Re: Same Sex marriage

                        Originally posted by mel
                        As someone who was name called and raked over the coals on a supposedly non-political topic, I have learned to stay clear of these volatile political discussions, especially if you don't agree with the liberals who populate this board. They are outspoken and will tear you down at every opportunity they get, whether the political topic is the Presidency, the war, a myriad of social and economic issues, and more.
                        Yes, mel, I'm outspoken. But I don't tear you down, I tear your arguments down. I trust you understand the difference. I respect your right to hold whatever opinion you wish, just as I expect you to respect my right to tell you that your opinion doesn't make sense and is wrong. If I ever start deriding you instead of your opinions, please tell me so and I will stop.


                        Adri, I feel sorry for you for having started this topic. It is like you just lit a match next to a giant oil refinery. It is going to get very volatile here. Try and bail out before it gets too crazy and let the liberals pontificate among themselves.
                        "Crazy". "Pontificate". Ha. This reminds me of the attitude behind the "Your Ideal Liberal World" thread that you started a while ago. We're not raving loonies, mel, just strong-minded. And by the way, I thought that "pontificate" was something done by the pontiff (i.e. the Pope), not us godless heathens.


                        The political frying pan over here is too heated to only one side of most arguments.
                        Which is, to me, a refreshing change from the mainstream "conservative" media that I endure every day of my life.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Same Sex marriage

                          The beauty of this country is we can, for the most part, express whatever opinion we want.

                          Thoughtful (and maybe even sometines heated) discussion is really required for people to exercise their minds. Remember that the brain is a muscle too and if not exercised regularly, it will atrophy like an unused limb.

                          Thank god there is dissention! I cannot imagine a society where everyone thought alike and never caused people to pause to consider alternatives. To Mel, Adrian and Karen, even though right now it might feel as though the majority of others here are against you, I for one am glad you have a different opinion than the mainstream. Continue to speak your mind so the rest of us can hear what another opinion is.

                          For the rest of us: we shouldn't immediately discount what people of different views have to say, either. Some of what they have to say is very valid. We may not always agree, but we should encourage strong discussions. If we don't have passionate people who believe in what they're saying, then why have threads about politics or anything controversial? As Mel says, why not just stick with "safe" topics like entertainment?

                          Thank you to all who have expressed your opinions. It's made me exercise my brain more.

                          Miulang
                          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                          • #14
                            Re: Same Sex marriage

                            I think I'll let this topic die.

                            When I started this topic at other sites, there was a few people who saw my side, and liked it, but alas, the majority was against me.

                            I guess I can learn from this, and not bring anything like this to a local board (and I should have deleted this topic before anyone saw it).
                            How'd I get so white and nerdy?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Same Sex marriage

                              What, you only want to hear from people who agree with you? Where's the fun in that?

                              Seriously, if you want to discuss a topic, then you should be prepared to hear and discuss all sides. Covering your ears and walking away when you hear something you don't like doesn't make it go away, nor is it going to improve anyone's understanding.

                              Or to put it another way, if you can't stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.

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