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  • Half of our teachers to leave?

    Yesterday the HSTA said that half of Hawaii's teachers plan to leave the job within 5 years if the pay doesn't change. This is based on 608 members surveyed. The union has 15,000 members. Is this a fair statement or just a scare tactic for the media to eat up?

    I see another strike coming out of this and the only ones who lose are the children.
    Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

    Stupid people come in all flavors-buzz1941
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  • #2
    Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

    One of the main reasons for the high number is that a bunch of teachers are nearing retirement age. The younger ones aren't being paid enough based on the amount of schooling they have to have in order to get certified, so they would rather go teach in a private school or go work in some other industry. You don't become a teacher to get rich.

    When your most experienced, talented teachers max out at $60k a year, and with the high cost of living in Hawai'i, it's no wonder the State can't retain the good teachers.

    And you're right: the ones who will suffer most will be the kids who attend public school.

    But with the Legislature wanting to be tight-fisted with its budget this biennium, I don't see how the teachers are going to make any inroads in their battle to get more money.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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    • #3
      Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

      Originally posted by Miulang

      When your most experienced, talented teachers max out at $60k a year, and with the high cost of living in Hawai'i, it's no wonder the State can't retain the good teachers.

      And you're right: the ones who will suffer most will be the kids who attend public school.

      But with the Legislature wanting to be tight-fisted with its budget this biennium, I don't see how the teachers are going to make any inroads in their battle to get more money.

      Miulang
      I feel that the Legislature doesn't care because THEIR kids go to private school so their policies won't affect THEIR families education.
      Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

      Stupid people come in all flavors-buzz1941
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      • #4
        Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

        Originally posted by alohabear
        I feel that the Legislature doesn't care because THEIR kids go to private school so their policies won't affect THEIR families education.
        That is exactly it. That's absolutely true.

        My daughter's teacher has a Master's degree, and I know that whatever they're paying her, it's not nearly enough. Maybe half of our teachers won't actually leave, but I don't want to find out.

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        • #5
          Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

          Check out this 65% solution: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38726-2005Apr8.html

          It would mean an increase of $60 million dollars for use in classrooms in Hawaii--without raising taxes. Politically delicious idea, indeed.
          * I would be most content if my children grew up to be the kind of people who think decorating consists mostly of building enough bookshelves. *
          - Anna Quindlen

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          • #6
            Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

            Teacher pay has never been on par with their mainland counterparts and the threat of leaving was always there but if half plan on leaving then do our current stock of teachers represent 50% of what we could have if teacher salaries were comparable to the mainland? I don't think so.

            Teacher salaries like another job here in Hawaii has always been under the national average simply because of the cost of living. When I hear the excuse that a teacher's salary doesn't allow one to buy a modest home in Hawaii, I say big deal, hardly any salary can match that claim for any job description here in the islands.

            When they say they cannot buy a home on that salary, I say big deal! How many of us rely on one salary to qualify for a home here in Hawaii? It's a two-income mortgage in general in these parts.

            Teacher salary is not on par with the rest of the nation however Hawaii teachers do make more than salaries found elsewhere in Hawaii where it counts. There are others making way less and working way more with less benefits. Look at the parking lots in some of Hawaii's public schools, the most popular cars there are new Toyota's, Honda's and WHAT? Lexus and Infinity's? How can that be? But it's true. I knew a kindergarden teacher who drove in in her new BMW 3-series. Yep she's really hurting a lot. Helps that her husband was a Navy flyer.

            Like most of us, we have to survive on two incomes much less qualify for home mortgages based on dual incomes. To use the arguement that a teacher's salary won't qualify for a home loan is moot because practically everybody who works in this beloved state of ours can't qualify for a home mortgage on one income. My goodness if a teacher's salary alone qualifies for a typical home in Hawaii they'd be making somewhere's around $80,000 to $90,000 per year not including benefits. With those bennies they would be making well over $100,000 per year. That's a bit much in my book.

            One observation I'd like clarified by this message board is the negotiated pay raise teachers got a while back saying better pay means better education for the keiki. Remember that mantra? Well what are the headlines saying now: Hawaii schools dead last in the nation. So where's the results of better pay?

            What happened over the years?
            Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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            • #7
              Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

              Originally posted by craigwatanabe
              Look at the parking lots in some of Hawaii's public schools, the most popular cars there are new Toyota's, Honda's and WHAT? Lexus and Infinity's? How can that be? But it's true. I knew a kindergarden teacher who drove in in her new BMW 3-series. Yep she's really hurting a lot. Helps that her husband was a Navy flyer.

              One observation I'd like clarified by this message board is the negotiated pay raise teachers got a while back saying better pay means better education for the keiki. Remember that mantra? Well what are the headlines saying now: Hawaii schools dead last in the nation. So where's the results of better pay?
              Those expensive car you saw are probably owned by teachers who have been teaching a long time. No way a teacher starting out here you could afford
              a new car like those. You'd be hard pressed to pay the cost of housing here
              if you just started out teaching here.

              My mom is a teacher, I can honestly say she takes her job very seriously.
              She puts in extra time on top of what is required to effectively teach her
              students. She took extra classes out her own pocket awhile back to be
              able to increase her pay scale. After almost 17 years of being a teacher
              she is at the top pay scale for a teacher here.

              It is my understanding why the schools here rated so low recently was because of NCLB. The DOE is evidently following NCLB exactly, unlike
              other places which are not. Yes the schools here need help, but on
              the other hand you can thank President Bush's No Child Left Behind
              for some the mess too.
              Check out my blog on Kona issues :
              The Kona Blog

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              • #8
                Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                Originally posted by Aaron S
                It is my understanding why the schools here rated so low recently was because of NCLB. The DOE is evidently following NCLB exactly, unlike other places which are not. Yes the schools here need help, but on the other hand you can thank President Bush's No Child Left Behind for some the mess too.
                It's sort of like the police crime statistics. If there are more arrests for a crime, does that really mean that more crimes are being committed, or is it just that the police are pressing harder and making more arrests where in the past they let some stuff slip? If the scores at your school go down compared to other schools, is it because your students are doing poorly, or is it because the other schools aren't grading as tough as you do? All by itself, that NCLB statistic doesn't tell you the whole picture.

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                • #9
                  Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                  Originally posted by Glen Miyashiro
                  All by itself, that NCLB statistic doesn't tell you the whole picture.
                  Exactly what I was trying to say
                  Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                  The Kona Blog

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                  • #10
                    Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                    I'll agree there, NCLB set the standards but never gave the schools the tools or the necessary budgets to attain those standards.

                    However I still wonder how effective those pay raises were. And no those expensive cars weren't owned by tenured teachers quite a few of them are married and rely on dual incomes to afford late model cars and because they are HSTA, they have negotiated benefits that aren't realistically put into the mix when it comes to cost of living. A lot of us have to pay quite a bit for health care. For me and my family to medically insure everybody I dished out over $600 per month to allow my wife to include the "family" as riders on her health plan. Without her health plan it would have been closer to $900 but she has her group medical plan.

                    There's no arguement that teachers are making less than their mainland counterparts, but to use that and compare it to affording a home here in Hawaii is stretching it because it is hard for anyone much less a teacher to be able to qualify for a home mortgage on one income. We're all suffering together but we still manage to get by. So please teachers don't play that victim card on the rest of us who have to get by with no union contract, you won't get a lot of support from those who are suffering with less.

                    Yes you educate our kids, however you chose that occupation knowing full well how much you were going to get and when. It shouldn't come as a surprize that you cannot afford the luxuries a high income garners. A lot of us who enter into a contract or employment know full well how much we will be earning and it's our choice to decide whether to accept the job or not, there's no big secret here.

                    If wanting to buy a home on one income is your goal, don't be a teacher. Or get a second job like a lot of us did. Now if there's enough money to grant a pay raise without hurting other much needed government services then yeah spread the wealth. But as everyone knows the money ain't there...yet.

                    Teachers aren't the only ones leaving the islands for the lure of higher pay, a lot of us are moving away, one teacher, one police officer, one fireman and with them their children, so if 200 teachers leave and half of them have children that's at least 100 kids if not more. Same goes for anyone leaving, their kids leave with them and the statewide student population drops proportionately.

                    There are so many students going thru the UH Education program to fill the vacancies. My wife had to extend her undergraduate program because there were so many teachers who went back to school to get certified for the higher pay that a lot of senior students couldn't take those classes to graduate on time. In other words, too many applicants, not enough seats. So there are up and coming teachers to fill the vacancies left by those leaving our state other than for retirement.

                    I may sound harsh when it comes to teacher salary however the reality is we're all in the same boat so complaining about it won't garner true support from the rest of us who got less without union protection but opt to stay here in Hawaii and live a modest life. Single mom teachers have it rough but then any single parent is having it tough too. I know a single parent who works as a cashier at two jobs leaving her eldest teenage child to watch over her younger kid at night. She has it worse but she also doesn't complain because she knows she's there because of her life planning when she was younger. She's just happy she can support her family, so I feel for her situation.

                    But for teachers in a dual-income family, I'm sorry it's hard for me to shed a tear for them while the rest of us float our utility bills for food. Join the ranks of us who are surviving or do something else to make your life better. I stayed in that survival mode until the light came on and I realized life can get better but you have to make critical changes in your life and for that it meant leaving the company I worked at for over 22-years spinning my wheels going nowhere for the sake of a decent paycheck and taking another look at my goals from a different perspective. It's amazing how tunnel visioned I was seeing my goals from such a limited perspective.

                    You've heard it: Leaving my secure job was the best thing that ever happened to me, it allowed me to rethink what's important in my life and then set realistic goals in attaining them. In other words, get out of the forest to see the trees, think outside the box. For teachers, if it means a change in career, then do so. If you're complaining about your salary then do something different because it's not the love of the job anymore, it's the almighty dollar.

                    If you leave, the whole educational system won't fall apart so don't feel obligated to stay. It's your life, you're in control of it, follow your dreams and live it before you die with regrets. If you truely love your job, then any salary would be acceptable, if you truely love your financial status, then that job ain't for you. It's your choice, you control your destiny, you just have to look at your life from a different perspective and sometimes its from an angle you'd never thought of before.

                    Easy words? Heck I took the plunge and I never felt better. I can't imagine why I never did it earlier.
                    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                      I have seen what my mom has to do as teacher for the last 17 years, so I don't expect you to understand at all what my view on this. My take is getting back
                      to the orginal point of the thread the DOE is simply having a hard time recruiting
                      new teachers to come here. More importantly the people that are coming here
                      are not staying long.

                      This is why pay comes into play here. If the starting pay is not adequate
                      to attract the best and the brightest new teachers, how do you expect to replace retiring teachers, whom includes my mom real shortly.
                      You cannot expect to replace them with subsitutes. That doesn't help the
                      kids any shuttling subsitutues in and out.
                      Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                      The Kona Blog

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                      • #12
                        Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                        Unfortunately that situation of attracting the best and brightest affects not only teachers but every profession here in Hawaii. The sad truth about your Mom's occupation (Aaron) is that teachers help plant the seed of knowledge in our keiki which will perpetuate into adulthood and hopefully give back to the communities that served them in their youth.

                        For that and only that reason is why I have a soft spot for teachers, however today's youth (up and coming professionals) want their success to be felt immediately and not earned the old fashioned way like your mom.

                        I know the quality of teachers are/will be going down mainly thru attrition, and I've recognized that dillema and made the necessary adjustments to allow my children to receive a good education: 1) send my qualifying children to private school and 2) send the rest to public schools and get involved with them by being board members of their PTSA, School Board (charter schools), SCBM and various fundraising events.

                        In other words don't rely 100% on the DOE or the HSTA to educate your children.

                        If you cannot stop public school teachers from leaving (for valid reasons) then as a parent the responsibility falls on your shoulders to ensure your child's proper education. EVEN IF THAT MEANS GETTING A SECOND JOB TO PAY FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS or getting involved in your children's school activities or functions.

                        Getting involved in your child's education should be the number two priority in you life as parents. Number one should always be the marriage itself because that's the foundation for which your kids grow and feel secure upon. From there education and family values become the focus in your child's well-being.

                        That's where the energy should be spent. For if students learned with the proper attitude then the job of teaching wouldn't be so demanding and maybe teachers wouldn't feel like they're in a battle zone fighting with an enemy they're trying to educate at the same time, then expecting more pay as a result.

                        Make the teaching profession easier for the teachers and the demand for higher salary becomes moot.
                        Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                          Well, if the HSTA members ratify the next 2-year contract, they will get on average a little less than a 10% increase in their pay.

                          Even though this sounds like a big increase, it really isn't, when you consider that the teachers have always been underpaid. There apparently are plans that haven't yet been released to try to increase teacher retention and reduce the teacher shortage, but those plans are contingent on the State budget.

                          Miulang
                          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                          • #14
                            Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                            Yes it's an artificial pay raise but it is more than what they're used to getting so it is significant. With this raise the focus now is whether this pay raise will result in higher educational scores. The ball is in the HSTA's court now.

                            I don't honestly believe 5% per year for two years will boost our kid's scores effectively because those in the profession are already in their positions at our public schools. Basically they're telling the DOE: Pay me more and I'll be a better teacher. In other words, right now they're not doing their job as good as they could but opt not to because of lower pay...pay they agreed to with their last negotiated contract.

                            Regarding the news story on KITV this morning on the pay raise. One teacher said the increase will help her cover her personal expenses in the classroom. I've always wondered why the HSTA hasn't complained about that or instructed their union member teachers not to do so. Either way these personal expenses for the classroom are tax deductable as work related so it all comes back.

                            So for this teacher, her pay raise won't make her a better teacher, it'll just cover the cost of her classroom material. Something that the DOE and the HSTA should be covering. For other teachers, this pay raise will help them buy their home. How will this make for better education? These teachers are already in the system teaching.

                            This pay raise was meant to attract the best and the brightest. Okay so if half of our teachers will be leaving then the other half aren't our best and brightest and will be benefitting from the same pay increase? How will that benefit our keiki?

                            Regardless the pay raise will be pretty much implemented so the ball is now in the teachers' court as well as the union representing them and the DOE, to come up with better student test scores over the next two years. That's a tremendous act to follow especially after the recent incidents regarding the compromised testing at some of our public schools.

                            We'll see.
                            Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Half of our teachers to leave?

                              Originally posted by craigwatanabe
                              I don't honestly believe 5% per year for two years will boost our kid's scores effectively because those in the profession are already in their positions at our public schools.
                              A good point. If the connection is higher pay -> higher quality teachers hired/retained -> better instruction -> higher kids' test scores, then it would take a lot longer than two years for any change implemented today to show results.

                              Basically they're telling the DOE: Pay me more and I'll be a better teacher. In other words, right now they're not doing their job as good as they could but opt not to because of lower pay...pay they agreed to with their last negotiated contract.
                              I see it more as, "pay me more because what I'm asking for is a fair wage." Slightly different emphasis there.

                              Regarding the news story on KITV this morning on the pay raise. One teacher said the increase will help her cover her personal expenses in the classroom. I've always wondered why the HSTA hasn't complained about that or instructed their union member teachers not to do so. Either way these personal expenses for the classroom are tax deductable as work related so it all comes back.
                              True. DOE should provide a bigger supplies and equipment budget. But the teachers I know tell me that if they need supplies to implement the lesson plans that they have designed, which in their opinions provide effective instruction, then they'll go buy the supplies even if there's no budget for them, assuming they're not too expensive. Call them wacky, but they actually want to give their students a good education.

                              Even so, "tax deductible" isn't the same as "paid for directly by your employer". If you spend $100 on work-related supplies, and you get to deduct that from your taxable income, then you effectively get a discount equal to your tax bracket, say 20%. You've still spent $80 or so out of your pocket.

                              How will this make for better education? These teachers are already in the system teaching.
                              That's where the time scale comes into the picture. How soon can you get your teacher pool to turn over, so as to bring in better new teachers and to flush out those in the existing faculty who are no good? It takes years and years.

                              This pay raise was meant to attract the best and the brightest. Okay so if half of our teachers will be leaving then the other half aren't our best and brightest and will be benefitting from the same pay increase? How will that benefit our keiki?
                              Who says that the half who are leaving are the best and brightest? Some might be, but a lot of others are leaving just because they're retiring. They're taking decades of experience with them, which will be a loss, but to be honest some of the old timers weren't all that great. I remember a few real duds.

                              This is where HSTA and DOE should work harder: on how to identify poor teachers, and either get them to improve, or get them to leave.

                              Regardless the pay raise will be pretty much implemented so the ball is now in the teachers' court as well as the union representing them and the DOE, to come up with better student test scores over the next two years. That's a tremendous act to follow especially after the recent incidents regarding the compromised testing at some of our public schools.

                              We'll see.
                              Agreed, although I have a beef with the testing itself.

                              If I recall from my own kids' experiences, they only test in specific grades: 3rd, 8th, and 10th I think? That doesn't make sense. If you are trying to see how the kids improve, then if you test in a particular grade level you are testing a different bunch of kids each year. Of course their scores are going to vary. Why not follow specific cohorts instead -- class of 2010, class of 2012, class of 2014, etc. -- throughout their school career?

                              And another thing: if you're measuring the performance of a high school based on their 10th graders' scores, then you are never measuring the effectiveness of the 11th and 12th grade curriculum. How smart is that?

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