If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

[Miulang]

This is kind of interesting...the results of the last round of Hawai'i State Aptitude Tests are in, and apparently the students in middle school and high school aren't doing too well. So rather than trying to make their curricula more stringent to meet the criteria of HSA, the DOE wants to lower the bar so students don't get "discouraged". Some are proposing that the standards be changed to be more in line with the Stanford Aptitude Test, which compares the results of students from different states. All this so the DOE isn't penalized by the "No Child Left Behind" Act.

If I was on the BOE, I would say, hell no, don't lower the standards...keep the HSA as rigorous as it is, make the students have to study the right things. Why would the parents of Hawai'i want their kids to have mediocre educations? It's not the fault of the kids...it's the fault of the public school system and parents who can't or won't spend enough time with their kids to help them. Granted, Hawai'i does have a unique situation with all the immigrant (non English speaking) students, but they should be given extra help if that's what's needed to make them successful in school.

Dumbing down the contents of a standardized test because the test scores are below what's expected is going to produce a lot of kids who won't try hard.


Miulang

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Errrr.... no.

You're implying that if the standardized test isn't as difficult, then the teachers will teach their students less effectively? I don't think so. Teachers will continue to teach as well, or in some cases as poorly, as before. And students will learn as well, or as poorly, as before. The standardized test doesn't have much to do with learning.

Note that the whole point of the test revision is because of NCLB. The test was created prior to NCLB, as a high standard to shoot for. Then NCLB came along and set the Hawai'i test in stone as the mandatory yardstick against which a school's success or failure will be measured. That's the problem: they took a tool that was designed for one purpose, and are trying to use it for another. And the new application is a lot more consequential than the old one.

[Miulang]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Errrr.... no.

You're implying that if the standardized test isn't as difficult, then the teachers will teach their students less effectively? I don't think so. .

Actually, I think what will happen is the teacher's expectations of student performance will be lowered so they won't have the same incentive to be as rigorous in their teaching. Now if the DOE was run like a real business, and the teachers and administrators were paid according to their performance (don't ask me what method you would use to determine that, though ), I think teachers would expect their students to strive harder, because their salaries would be tied to how well the students did. It's too bad that a standardized test has to be used at all; these kinds of metrics can be abused, too.

I remember Mrs. Anderson, my 4th grade teacher. Used to make us say the Lord's Prayer every morning, and I was in public school! (obviously this was before Madelyn Murray O'Hair) but man, she drilled us good. I didn't like her teaching style, but I learned more from her being "strict" than I did from other teachers who were more "lenient". In high school, I had Mademoiselle Brun, who used to go around the class with a ruler and rapped peoples' knuckles if they weren't paying attention to her in French class...Of course, corporal punishment in school is illegal now, but after all these years, I still remember what she taught me!

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

The StarBulletin's story presents the whole story graphically...it appears the kids in Grades 3 and 5 are improving their scores, while the middle and high school students tested barely improved. Maybe the DOE should look at the curricula of the middle and high school students and see where those can be improved, rather than lower the threshholds for the HSA. I mean, why have the scores for the elementary school kids improved so much as opposed to the middle and high school student scores?

Miulang

[Moto]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Could this have something to do with the Student's desire to learn? When they're young, most kids have a good attitude and want to learn and want to excell. The ones that cannot excell, still stive to do so although they may get frustrated. As the students become older they may become more cynical or start formulating their own ideas that education is not important to them, and not place a lot of effort into it, versus things that they would rather do (Beach, hang out with friends, etc.)

That is where the Parental Guidance and home environment is important. And not at the time the student starts to lose interest in education because there are better things that they want to spend their time with. The time to pound in the importance of education is when they are young and you need to drive in the point over and over. You need to live this concept.

This is not the same as looking at their report card and saying that the D that they had in Math is unacceptable and they need to study longer. You need to praise the areas where they are doing well and compliment them, and try to find out why they are struggling in other areas. Not just a blanket statement, "Your grades need to improve". No kidding, I believe the student has already figured that out. Yes it takes work on the parents part, however, I believe that is what it takes.

The No Child left behind places all of the responsiblity on the Educators, but it is tough to teach someone who doesn't want to learn and will not put in an effort. Everyone needs to take ownership of the problem, and until this is done, the system will continue to fail those that don't have the desire to learn.

[Miulang]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Another thing that might be happening is that the kids in the 8th and 10th grade are the ones who haven't gone through the whole cycle of the new curriculum the way the elementary school kids have. It could very well be that the test scores of future 8th and 10th graders WILL improve, simply because they had a better foundation to build from when they were in elementary school. That's why I don't think lowering the standards on the HSA should be done yet...wait until the current 5th graders become 8th graders and 10th graders to decide if you really need to mess with the HSA test. My guess is you won't, and in the process of not tinkering with it, you'll have cohorts of students who are much better prepared for lives beyond high school.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Here's a peek at the proposed new guidelines for "improving" the HSA. I fear that what they are turning this test into is one that is merely multiple choice. I think the reason why the upper level kids have been testing lower is because the test currently has multiple choice and essay type questions. The essay type questions are critical in a standardized test because they measure the critical thinking ability of students. Multiple choice tests generally don't involve critical thinking...just a matter of choosing which of 4 possible answers is correct.

The ability to be able to think critically (and be able to defend your answer) is really important when you become an adult. If kids aren't trained to do that while they are a captive audience, what you will have is a generation of robots, who will do what everyone else does and not even try to think about whether it's right or wrong.

The soon-to-be revised standards in Hawai'i are not the most rigorous in the country:

"...While some states have deliberately set low standards to avoid federal penalties, Hawai'i created standards that are more rigorous than most.

In May, the journal Education Next ranked Hawai'i's as the sixth-most-demanding in the nation and pointed out "the states with the highest expectations often stand accused of having the schools most in need of improvement — even when their students are doing relatively well."

Hawai'i has 24 schools facing the toughest level of sanctions under NCLB, and many more are forced to offer transfers, tutoring and other services to help boost student performance.

The new set of standards that will go into effect in the 2006-07 school year retains most of the expectations from the previous two versions of the Hawai'i Content and Performance Standards, but organizes them in a way the DOE expects will be more manageable for teachers.

The standards have been reduced to only the essential skills, but in math, for instance, there was not a lot of omission...."

Instead of trying to blend into the crowd, the DOE should keep the standards rigorous, and if they don't meet the NCLB criteria for adequate student performance, they should take any and all assistance from the government they can get to raise the test standards of the kids, not lower the standards so they can get better into compliance with NCLB through the back door.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

One of the positive outcomes of the alarming results of the HTA test scores for middle and high school students is increasing the number of afterschool programs to assist students who need extra help. The DOE should be have been doing this a long time ago, but a start now is better than nothing. My guess is this kind of remedial help will get more students better scores on standardized tests in the future.

Miulang

[alohabear]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Maybe the ones responsible(BOE, Administrators,teachers) for our keiki should be force to set an example by having "faith" in the system they promote. If their kids "have to attend " the public school in their district, they would make sure the public schools are doing their job. They would take pride in the system.

[Moto]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Miulang,
Concur that an essay type test may better show the skills and ability of the person being tested, however, that may not be realistic because of grading purposes. That would mean that someone must read every test and grade the essay which could become subjective. For example describe your house:

1. My house is a red, two story house in Ewa.

2. My house has 4 bedrooms, and 2.5 baths and has 2000 SF of living space.

3. My house is a masonry home with vinyl siding on the outer surface. It has a clay tile roof in the Ocean Pointe Residential Community.

Of course this is a simplified example, but if I was the person grading the test, is there an answer better than the others? If the question is worth 5 points, do they all get 5 points, does one get 3 while another gets 4 points?

I still say that the No Child Left Behind program is not realistic. You cannot set a 100% goal, without greatly increasing the investment allocated to achieve that goal. By setting a minimun standard (which may or may not be a realistic measure of what is required to survive in the world) you are trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. A lot of pegs may already come round and fits with no problem. It's the square pegs, that no matter what you try to do, will not fit. Actually, you may get some of the square pegs to fit, however, there will be those square pegs that will not fit no matter what.

[Miulang]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

Miulang,
Concur that an essay type test may better show the skills and ability of the person being tested, however, that may not be realistic because of grading purposes. That would mean that someone must read every test and grade the essay which could become subjective. .

I'm not saying standardized tests should be 100% essay. However, how do you measure a child's critical thinking abilities? Tests should not be all about multiple choice, although if you were sneaky enough, you could probably make the "wrong" answers close enough to the "right" answer that it'd be tough for kids to choose the right answer unless they really knew what it was.

Kids who apply for admission to private schools all have to write essays about why they want to attend the school (I know I had to write an essay to get into a private college and grad school). I see no reason why public school kids should be spared that torture.

I went to school at a time when "new math" was just being rolled out. We were taught that it wasn't so important to memorize a correct answer; it was more important that you understood how you got to that answer. That's the kind of critical thinking that needs to be taught. Not the rote stuff.

Miulang

[love for the locals]

Re: If Hawai'i kids can't do well in school, lower the expectations

I have to say that these test are very bias, I whole heartedly agree that if you have so many non-english speaking americans living in Hawaii then you should get more help, the state of California offers help to the Spanish speaking kids. Do you have ESL classes? For my comment your kids will reflect your school, if they take pride in their education then it will show and if not then this is your proposed solution. I believe the worst story of giving up happend a few years ago in California, the City of Oakland decided to teach Ebonics as a laungue, I can only assume because it was easier than trying to teach them English. Maybe I'm wrong but as a parent I truly want the best education for my kids I want them to learn at there potential not have to learn at a remedal level because they have no choice!!!!!

But here is an idea, if you want more money for the school system then why don't we as, american voters, vote for salary caps on political offices. Instead of holding an office and making 100 thousand dollars a year why not make it 50 thousand???? They are suppose to be in office to make life better and help not get rich and bleed us dry in the process.

sorry for the rant