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  • The rich keep getting richer...

    Not that anyone doesn't already know it, but the statistics are rather startling for Hawaii...

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  • #2
    Re: The rich keep getting richer...

    Homer Simpson;Mr.Burns your the richest man I know. Mr.Burns;Ya Homer but I'de trade it all for a little more....

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    • #3
      Re: The rich keep getting richer...

      If the rich don't get any richer then there's something wrong with our economy. We need rich people so they can invest in our market driven economy so the rest of have jobs.

      The latent truth to that statement is also that regular people are getting richer too as our economy improves. So where does that leave poor people? Well some are actually getting better jobs, thru government subsidies they are getting educated to get jobs, and some are just cheating the system getting rich to boot.

      Then there's the truly poor who haven't moved up a single notch in our society and with all the help out there (government, private sector) I can't imagine why they aren't taking advantage of the support unless they don't want it.

      Ahh and here we visit the topic of homeless and the poor. We all know that there are homeless that are considered the poor masses out there who just don't want to be bothered.

      But to be poor and to struggle day to day is really what the focus is on, not the druggies or the dredges of society but the true victims of our economically driven society. How do they end up in the classification: The poor get poorer?

      It's not that the rich are taking anything away from them making them less fortunate. As a matter of fact, the rich are paying a far greater burden of government subsidy taxes to help these individuals. So why isn't government subsidy working for the increasingly poorer people? They aren't paying much of any taxes because they fall below the taxable incomes.

      Because you can give a man a fish (government subsidy) or you can teach him to be a fisherman (get educated). The problem is that not everybody can learn a new trade at an older age. Remember those Neurons and nerve paths in our brains that start to stop connecting after age five? It's that use it or lose it ability of the brain to develop.

      Another sad truth is that if we continue to rate social classes among U.S. citizens then there will always be a poor and a rich person. Someone has to be the last in line...that is unless you share the wealth. But whose wealth? Most of us are considered "richer" than those who can't even afford a computer to chat on this message board. So do we give up enough of our income to make the poor person and you equal?

      We earned our income and we can be charitable to a point. But that point will still make some of us richer than others. We don't live in a socialistic society where everybody is treated the same with only two classes, rich and poor with no middle class.

      We live in a capitalistic driven economy where we all strive to better our lives and no one is gonna take that away from us, not even the government. If we're gonna help the poor it comes out of our own generosity not thru taxes. So do the rich help the poor thru their own generosity?

      Believe it or not quite a few rich people do in fact donate large sums of money for charity. Rich people do invest in companies that educate and create jobs for everybody else.

      So I do hope the rich get richer because somewhere in that income curve, I'm in there too along with the rest of us. How we get richer depends on how we spend or save our pennies. And thru our wise investments and dividends, we also do our parts in helping those less fortunate than others and rich people are doing theirs. When was the last time you donated to Aloha United Way, The Red Cross. When was the last time you joined a civic organization like the Elks Club or the Rotary Club? And when was the last time you went to a charity dinner, ball, event? Rich people do this quite often and those proceeds go to charitable causes.
      Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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      • #4
        Re: The rich keep getting richer...

        Craigwantabe you sound like a man who has not met very many rich people.The nature of my last business led me to meet 100's.Much of what you say is true and how it all "can" work,but the sad truth is money is the most corruptive thing to the human spirit and the great majority of the rich lie cheat and steal to get more and the collective damage of greed in this nation is unmesurable.
        Just my hippie .02

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        • #5
          Re: The rich keep getting richer...

          wasn't going to post anything but since reading fondoo's comments, i'll throw in my two cents. basically, i agree with fondoo. my own personal experience tells me that there's a real contrast between how this system (capitalism) can/should work and how it actually does work. no doubt, man can be noble, but he/she often is not. is competition necessarily bad? no, i don't think so. should people be rewarded for their hard work? yes, i think so. but i see capitalism as playing right into the less-than-noble nature of man. (that's my personal bias; i see man as capable of doing great good but history tells me that he/she often fails miserably.) do we have to look hard and far to find examples of greed in this country? i don't think so. does capitalism seek the greatest good for the people first and foremost? no, i don't think so. if i'm a billionaire, can i use the system to increase my wealth and pay lip service to public service? yes, i think so.

          do i have the answers to everything? no, i don't. is any system perfect? no, i don't think so. my personal preference? probably some form of socialism. why? because i think a system which does not allow for excessive wealth among a few discourages greed and abuse of various kinds.

          no doubt, this is a big topic and not one that i'm going to write about satisfactorily at 3:15 in the morning. just my two cents...
          525,600 minutes, 525,000 moments so dear. 525,600 minutes - how do you measure, measure a year?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The rich keep getting richer...

            With the exception of a few very highly visible rich guys like Bill Gates, much of the philanthropy of the rich is aimed at helping them find ways to avoid taxation that would dilute their wealth. So they set up these charitable foundations which do do good work in many cases, but which also provide them with many tax advantages that the rest of us could only dream of getting. There's very little altruism in rich businesspeople giving away their money.

            Look at the former HAL trustee (Joshua Gotbaum) who is suing HAL and its board now for an $8 million "success" fee. Gimme a break. The guy was paid $50k a month + $10k for living expenses. Yea, he brought HAL out of bankruptcy, but if HAL had to pay him that extortionary extra money, it would plunge the company into bankruptcy again. And he claims he's being benevolent because that amount would be at the bottom end of the range of compensation he would expect?

            Miulang
            Last edited by Miulang; August 11, 2005, 05:47 AM.
            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The rich keep getting richer...

              just another rambling thought before i run and get on with the day: i don't think individualism or self interest is a bad thing at all. in fact, i think they're good things, but capitalism creates and encourages an attitude of me vs. them, more = better, win-lose vs a win-win situation, etc. commercialism depends largely on making people think they need this and that when in fact they don't. the character gecko in the movie wall street symbolized this whole mindset when he uttered those famous words, "greed is good". self-interest, i believe, is good but i see capitalism as encouraging excessive behavior. laws are, obviously, created and designed to encourage and discourage specific behavior. capitalism or any -ism does the same and that's why i think some form of socialism would discourage greed and place the welfare of all in a greater position than capitalism.

              again, this is just my two cents worth. i'm not an expert in the field (obviously) but i wonder if places like northern europe are so bad with their mix of capitalism and "socialism"?
              525,600 minutes, 525,000 moments so dear. 525,600 minutes - how do you measure, measure a year?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                Originally posted by shaveice
                the character gecko in the movie wall street symbolized this whole mindset when he uttered those famous words, "greed is good".

                He did not utter that phrase. never in the movie.
                What Gordon Gekko DID say was:

                "greed, for lack of a better word, is good..."
                and this was a culmination, a summing up of his speech to the stockholders... and a defense of his general philosophy. Which taken in decent doses, works. But of course, we would have had no movie if it didn't continue in the dramatic extreme downward spiral the story took, and it's this direction, the movie illustrates, is when and where capitalism gets dangerous. But capitalism can and does work.
                Last edited by kimo55; August 11, 2005, 11:19 AM.

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                • #9
                  Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                  we can talk about this one forever and i doubt anyone will change his/her mind so i'll just drop my last two cents and be done with it.

                  kimo wrote, "But capitalism can and does work." sure, but at what price? if we're talking about just economics at any price and if i believed it (which i obviously don't), my attitude would then be, "screw the hawaiians and any other group that gets in the way; screw the small businesses; screw the weak and defenseless; etc." bigger is better and might makes right. if they can't compete, they should die and go under. if they can't play the game and use the rules to their advantage, screw em. if they're not smart enough to know how to beat the next guy, too bad. if we have to bulldoze over stuff that others might think important, too bad. we're about making money and everthing else (well, maybe a little pr and lip service about lofty ideals) is secondary.

                  there is absolutely no way ever (that i can see) the u.s. will ever change so don't think for a second that i think the u.s. will change. maybe if something radical happens, maybe a little change but i see the u.s. as barrelling fullspeed ahead with a capitalist mentality and the evidence is everywhere, every day in the papers. am i surprised that high ranking government officials take bribes in exchange for favors? no. am i surprised the big corporations cook the books. of course not. am i surprised that companies dump waste where they shouldn't? no. etc, etc, etc. it would surprise me if anyone were surprised! it makes perfect sense to me. if money is so highly valued, of course people will do whatever to accumalate a lot of it.

                  anyway, i've long since given up any idea that things will change. like i've said all along, just my two cents. my opinion and preference. obviously others feel differently and they have it their way. i don't have all the answers and i can't change the world. might as well have another shave ice...
                  525,600 minutes, 525,000 moments so dear. 525,600 minutes - how do you measure, measure a year?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                    Originally posted by shaveice
                    kimo wrote, "But capitalism can and does work." sure, but at what price?
                    Now, yer just playing with me.
                    good line, tho!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                      Originally posted by shaveice
                      might as well have another shave ice...
                      word, bruthuh.
                      just as long as you no go callin it
                      shaved ice.
                      or
                      snow cone.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                        On a brighter note there is a religus philosophy that teaches not to focus on fixing the world but fixing the mile around your home.I love the wisdom of that,we may not be able to make the wealthy moral or the government less corrupt but we can fix that old timers fence down the street or secretly slip some money to a family in need or invent some work you "need" done so you can pay a man/woman that does not want charity

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                        • #13
                          Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                          Well the other side of the economic coin is Communism or it's modern ally Socialism.

                          The sad truth is that more economies are heading towards a capitalistic society and many have fled the iron grip of communism. We all saw what happens when a republic tries a socialistic society, it fell apart and the truths that were held captive by it's embrace soon allowed for civil unrest among it's units...the USSR.

                          As problematic as capitalism is, it's still the world's preferred way of running an economic society.

                          And I have partied among the rich. Yes they do it for the tax deduction but even though their percentages are smaller, the amount still outpaces even the most generous donations from any of the lesser classes. Let's face it an average American's income is somewhere around $25,000 to $35,000. If they paid 30% of their gross on $35,000 it would amount to around what just under $12,000 per year? Now look at the rich paying only 10% on a Million dollar annual income...yeah that comes out to $100,000 or just over eight times.

                          So where do they sock the rest? In banks, investments, whatever. When a bank invests monies from these individuals, they have reserves that will allow you the middle class earner to buy a home. When these individuals invest in corporate America, these corporations create jobs for the rest of us.

                          And when these individuals donate to a worthy cause (for taxable deductions) those monies go to finding a cure for some disease. It goes to help fund humanitarian causes that are already overburdening our government's subsidy coffers.

                          As long as the rich get richer, they feed into our economic engine we call capitalism. And that engine powers our jobs, retirement, public education and aid to the less fortunate.

                          Let's face it what would happen if the rich got poorer? Yeah the poor get the benefits from Robin Hood, but then when the rich become poor, then what happens?

                          The stock market takes a dive because no one's investing anymore, Fortune 500 and other companies shut down because of lack of investor dollars, and we all lose our jobs.

                          Big deal we go on welfare. But who's feeding into the tax-base to keep government subsidy programs alive? We're all broke! At that point it's total anarchy.

                          That's what happens if the rich got poorer. As long as we have government subsidy programs, we will have a poor class of citizens. That's the plain truth. So get rid of them? We can't because these programs are there to aid those who have fallen on hard times and are a stop gap measure to get them back on their feet...basically to get them out of being poor and into a higher level of social class by offering job training, education vouchers and nutritious meal planning. But some would rather take the handout without doing anything to better themselves and have created an eternal poor class of people.

                          So who are the poor that give us the bottom index marker? Those who are there temporarily and are using the welfare programs effectively and those who are just taking advantage of the taxpayer. And who stays in the poor? Obviously not those who want to better their lives.

                          That leaves us with the eternal poor, you see them, the riff raff and quite frankly, they choose to be there and for that reason I don't blame the rich for getting richer because these poor that remain poor and getting poorer aren't doing a thing for themselves. As long as there are programs out there subsidized by tax dollars and private donations these people have a way out if they choose to follow it. But if they choose not to...well then it's kinda hard to feel sorry for those poor becoming poorer.

                          We all strive to work hard and live that American dream, well what is that dream? To be financially secure? We did our part and guess what, the rich did it before us. There is no excuse for finding success with all the government programs out there. I knew a guy who fled South Vietnam when it fell. He escaped with just the shirt on his back to Hawaii. He lied about his age so he could attend high school and learn english. He had no skills other than tilling the fields.

                          He went on to get his Associates in automotive repair at Honolulu Community College. He's married now and off of welfare. He's a small success story that I reflect on whenever I feel like throwing in the towel. If he can do it anyone can. He's one poor person that refused to stay there and I only wished the media would cover those rags to riches stories, the poor that got richer because there are a lot of them out there.

                          You want to get richer, do your homework and set up a plan. Don't know how? There are a lot of government programs out there that will tell or teach you how. Don't have the time? Well then you reap what you sew. It takes time and effort to become successful. The rich know that. The poor who want to become successful know that as well, they call it opportunity.
                          Last edited by craigwatanabe; August 12, 2005, 03:37 PM.
                          Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                            hi craig, first of all, i just wanna make sure you don't think i'm slamming you. i've said all along that i'm just posting my opinions and preferences. that said, i've never been a fan of totalitarianism (how could i?) or any kind of suppresive government. i never bothered spending any real time learning about libertarianism but i like the idea of getting the government out of our lives.

                            ussr? china under mao? the killing fields of cambodia? of course they were atrocities and i'd easily choose a corrupt capitalism in the states over any of those. i was thinking (obviously not too clearly) of places more along the lines of northern europe (norway, sweden, denmark, etc) where the taxes are very high and things like universal health care is (i believe) available to everyone, as is education. of course, i could be wrong about that and if i am, i'll take it back.

                            i'm pretty disgusted at the excessives of the u.s. but there's nothing i can do about it. just voicing my opinion. i definitely prefer places like northern europe where people are taxed at a higher rate but it's for the benefit of the people in general. i could be wrong but i don't think they have the kind of extremes we have in the states (e.g, a graph of the wealth of the citizens of the u.s. would show a much larger group of very wealthy compared to a graph of citizens of say norway).

                            is any system perfect? of course not. as long as man is a part of the equation, there will be those who mess things up. i just think it's deplorable the way things are going in the u.s. the things we're doing overseas, the things we're doing to the environment, hte things we're doing right here on our own soil, etc. and it's all perfectly legal. amazing.

                            it's a no-brainer: of course i think it's great that people work hard and achieve some degree of success. i can't imagine anyone suggesting that it's bad. my criticism is certainly not about those people. my criticism is directed at broader gripes (corrupt politicians, corrupt businessmen, mindless consumerism, etc. etc.) of which we have a lot in the u.s.

                            no doubt, ayn rand would be very happy to read your comments. i'm just a disappointed hippie who, while thankful for the good things, have to shake my head when i read noam chompsky.

                            no, i don't have any easy answers but i like what fondoo (did i spell that right?) suggested about doing good where you are...
                            525,600 minutes, 525,000 moments so dear. 525,600 minutes - how do you measure, measure a year?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The rich keep getting richer...

                              I'm in the same boat as Shaveice where I believe in our system compared to others it can allow more freedom.
                              Things are changing we have whitnessed a widespread awakening from the WWII days of "Were the good guys yay!" to now the majority understanding our government can and does some pretty messed up things.
                              Now that our eyes our open I think "We the People" are gonna shake some foundations in this country of ours.The collective awareness of just how evil and corrupt the wealthy are and how much power they have in our government will make change unstoppable.
                              Douglas Adams made a great observation in that the funny thing about cops and polititions are the guys that really really want to do it are the exact same ones that should under no circumstances be alowed too he he
                              Another problem is that people in love with wealth and power are "Fenatics" and the average american would like everyone to be happy and treated justly but just doesn't care as much as the "Fenantics" it's a clear disadvantage <----another D.A. insight
                              Last edited by Fondoo2; August 12, 2005, 07:31 PM.

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