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  • Closing Small Schools

    Hawai'i should close public schools with low enrollment to free up money for improving other schools this way the State can save money. This was brought up in a meeting of the State Economic Momentum Commission.

    I think this idea would work in most areas because having a school open for 100-250 students makes no sense. I've been with the DOE for over 20 years and have been at large schools and small, I've often wondered why some of these small schools like Laupahoehoe on Hawaii island need to still be open. When I was working there, we had one class for every grade k-12. The graduating class had 30 students who could have been bus to Hilo and Honokaa.
    They would have gotten a better education in a larger school.
    Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

    Stupid people come in all flavors-buzz1941
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  • #2
    Re: Closing Small Schools

    Originally posted by alohabear
    Hawai'i should close public schools with low enrollment to free up money for improving other schools this way the State can save money. This was brought up in a meeting of the State Economic Momentum Commission.

    I think this idea would work in most areas because having a school open for 100-250 students makes no sense. I've been with the DOE for over 20 years and have been at large schools and small, I've often wondered why some of these small schools like Laupahoehoe on Hawaii island need to still be open. When I was working there, we had one class for every grade k-12. The graduating class had 30 students who could have been bus to Hilo and Honokaa.
    They would have gotten a better education in a larger school.
    Actually I beg to differ. Smaller class sizes have been proven to provide better learning environments for students. With larger schools many kids get lost in the academic shuffle whereas smaller schools provide a more one on one environment to students.

    I look at Kea'au Elementary school and compare it to Connection's Public Charter School where one of my boys started off going to and eventually is enrolled in right now. Kea'au Elementary tried to pack in too many students per classroom (sometimes over 45 per class...which is illegal by the way). Having been on school boards I understand why they do so. Each public school get's a subsidy for each student enrolled there from the DOE.

    But rarely does every penny of that subsidy go to the benefit of that student. So where does that money go to? Who knows...maybe Marion Higa knows but you can cook books to show anything you want.

    I had to take my kid out of Kea'au because he wasn't getting the attention his teacher should have been giving him. How could she? When she has to manage a class of 45 screaming kids? When these teachers learn classroom management techniques, typically it's designed for classes for 30 or less students. 30-1! What kind of student to teacher ratio is that? How in the world can that be quality education. But in Kea'au it's 45-1. That's insane!

    No bigger isn't better in this case.
    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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    • #3
      Re: Closing Small Schools

      And even if you've got a student/teacher ratio good enough to have decent class sizes, really large schools still have other problems because of sheer size. Take high school clubs and student government and sports for example. If you want to join the team, or get elected to office, or be head of the club, you've got a lot more competition for those positions at a big school than at a smaller school, and fewer kids will be able to have those experiences.

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      • #4
        Re: Closing Small Schools

        Don't larger schools offer a better variety of classes? My son who goes to Waiakea , can take Robotics, Solar Car and higher math classes because they offer it.
        Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

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        • #5
          Re: Closing Small Schools

          Originally posted by alohabear
          Don't larger schools offer a better variety of classes? My son who goes to Waiakea , can take Robotics, Solar Car and higher math classes because they offer it.
          Yes they do but that's not the intent of schools. You need to get the basic needs of a student fulfilled before they can advance to other areas of learning. Robotics and higher math classes come to students who have the academic skills needed for that curricullum. Most do not and will never achieve them if they are in an overcrowded classroom where individual attention cannot be administered to a struggling student.

          Smaller classrooms also allow students to follow individually structured math lessons that are self-paced instead of rote like many larger public schools. This way a teacher can spend time on one child learning general math while another is learning Geometry in the same grade level in the same class. I know one of my kids is learning Pre-Algebra in the fifth grade while other classmates are still learning the Distributive process.

          I can teach my kids the interesting things like robotics. I'm teaching my 2nd grade child the basics of chemistry and physics and he's applying it in his classroom in his science projects. He's one of the stellar kids in his class and his math and reading comprension is at the 3rd grade level. He's so ahead of his classmates that his teacher allows him to help tutor them on basic math.

          He wouldn't have been able to advance without a self-paced environment. His thirst for knowledge exceeded his grade level but his teacher was able to give him more advanced studies to allow him to keep learning. In a rote environmnent, you're lock-stepped and eventually get bored until the next semester. By then you simply lose interest in school and that's where juvenile deliquency problems occur...when children get bored.

          In a more intimate classroom setting the kids work together instead of separating into small clics where classroom managment becomes harder to maintain.

          The DOE has to understand that education isn't a matter of economics, it's a matter of educating our keiki. As usual the almighty dollar takes precedence over education and as usual the dollar wins and the children suffer the consequences.

          This is why I support Public Charter Schools. It's the next best thing to private schools because the DOE doesn't stick their uneducated noses into charter school's curricullum. It is a known fact that public charter schools do better with less money than DOE schools. It's also a known fact that the BOE doesn't like PCS' because they seem to be able to do a better job than DOE schools which fall under their guidance.

          No closing smaller schools will not help education, it only hurts it.
          Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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          • #6
            Re: Closing Small Schools

            Originally posted by craigwatanabe
            The DOE has to understand that education isn't a matter of economics, it's a matter of educating our keiki. As usual the almighty dollar takes precedence over education and as usual the dollar wins and the children suffer the consequences.
            I think that the EMC proposal to form a commission to provide an asset management review of our statewide lower education physical plant is a good idea. I understand the arguments made by Craig on the benefits of reduced class size. From K-2, my kids were also often in classes that exceeded the 20 kid cap, and did not get as much one-on-one time with the teacher as they should have. I would argue that taking an asset management approach would likely result in a statewide physical plant that is better able to provide a place more conducive to learning. The commission may come up with recommendations to sell state lands, enter into land swaps, or form development agreements. This in turn could be used to build new schools in growing communities and/or improve existing schools. It is an exciting concept, and one that deserves to be considered this year at the Legislature.

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            • #7
              Re: Closing Small Schools

              I'm all for closing really small schools. I rather see the money that goes to a small school and send it to a medium size school and try to improve things there. Most schools that I know could really use a bigger campus and more specialized teachers. I don't see the purpose of a 100 to 150 student school having the same size support staff(custodians, cafeteria works, health nurses, counselors, and clerks) as a school 3 times as large in population.

              Being in a larger school doesn't directly mean a higher student to teacher ratio. If larger schools had additional money to build more classrooms and hire more teachers the problem would hardly exist.
              'If you have a problem. If no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire, The A Team"

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              • #8
                Re: Closing Small Schools

                That's the problem with larger schools! The educational budget is spent more on facilities and upkeep than what it's intended for...education of the keiki.

                Small schools mean smaller maintenance budgets. Charter schools exemplify that. They're not tied to the GAO to get bathroom walls painted or to beautify the grounds.

                Large schools simply don't work. There is very little attention given to the individual student and many fall thru the educational cracks and are graduated with little knowledge needed to go on in life. You talk about diploma mills for college degrees...public schools are exactly that for those who know how to cheat the system and get out with a High School diploma yet cannot read. Smaller schools can identify those individuals and can remedy the situation long before it becomes an irreversable issue days before they graduate.

                I'm a product of a large public school Wilson Elementary/Kaimuki Intermediate/Kalani High School. My elementary school children go to public charter schools and I can see the difference in class size and how it relates to their academic achievements.

                You want a good example of a decent sized public elementary school doing well? Hokulani Elementary School with a typical student body of just over 300 from K-6. That's a good size for an elementary school. Not too big and for those who don't like small schools...not too small.

                And it's not that easy to simply build more classrooms and hire more teachers. That's the number 1 problem is getting the funding to do just that. That's why classrooms are overpacked with 30-1 ratios.
                Last edited by craigwatanabe; February 8, 2006, 10:11 AM.
                Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                • #9
                  Re: Closing Small Schools

                  Originally posted by craigwatanabe
                  I'm a product of a large public school Wilson Elementary/Kaimuki Intermediate/Kalani High School. My elementary school children go to public charter schools and I can see the difference in class size and how it relates to their academic achievements.
                  You are proof that large schools work too. You are intellegent... and your views are well respected on this board. It's the student .... not the school size.
                  Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

                  Stupid people come in all flavors-buzz1941
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                  • #10
                    Re: Closing Small Schools

                    Originally posted by alohabear
                    You are proof that large schools work too. You are intellegent... and your views are well respected on this board. It's the student .... not the school size.

                    Kalani was very much an exception because in our school academics was the peer pressure not drugs. We epitomized the word Geek with the reasons why our football team never won many games...cuz the team was analyzing the play in action with a slide rule while Kaimuki was sacking the quarterback.

                    But don't mess with our math team we know how to use a calculator and we ain't afraid of using it on anyone!
                    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Closing Small Schools

                      It would be really sad for a community like Laupahoehoe to lose its elementary school. Every community should have a school and park as part of its community space. The quality of education is up to the commitment of the community and staff, not school size. Larger high schools are fine - so the kids get a wider experience and make a larger network of friends - but elementary schools should stay close to home and the community. Most of my elementaries were within a few blocks of home, and acted as a community focus for the neighborhood.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Closing Small Schools

                        Originally posted by craigwatanabe
                        Kalani was very much an exception because in our school academics was the peer pressure not drugs. We epitomized the word Geek with the reasons why our football team never won many games...cuz the team was analyzing the play in action with a slide rule while Kaimuki was sacking the quarterback.

                        But don't mess with our math team we know how to use a calculator and we ain't afraid of using it on anyone!
                        Waiakea was pretty much the same way. Our math league teams always kicked ass. The sports part was "geek" sports too, like golf, tennis and bowling.
                        Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

                        Stupid people come in all flavors-buzz1941
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