Tookie Gets Terminated!

[alohabear]

IMO, Arnold did the right thing and that man got what he deserved . May Tookie Williams Rest in Peace.

[mel]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

Exactly.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

Posting a respectful disagreement, but out of a rejection of the death penalty overall, not just this specific case.

[alohabear]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

Posting a respectful disagreement, but out of a rejection of the death penalty overall, not just this specific case.

The Bible always said An Eye For An Eye . The punishment fits the crime.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

The Bible always said An Eye For An Eye.

First, it should be noted that the "eye for an eye" punishment is originally from the Code of Hammurabi, and predates the Bible by a millenium or so. With all due respect, it always intrigues me that people who profess to be devoutly Christian tend to be selective in what aspects of Christianity they follow.

The Christian concept of "agape" is unconditional. A community that follows this principle would not accept the "eye for an eye" philosophy. Jesus teaches that you should turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39); Paul said "Repay no one evil for evil" and "do not avenge yourselves" (Romans 12:14-21).

The Bible also calls for the death penalty if you strike or curse your parents, violate the Sabbath, have premarital sex, or blaspheme. God requires the death penalty for some sixteen crimes, according to the Bible --- should we then enforce all such laws?

Certain Old Testament texts do condone capital punishment, but individual passages need to be viewed in the context of the entire Bible - a story of forgiveness and redemption. In Genesis, Cain slew Abel, yet God chose to banish him, rather than slaying him. In addition, He declared that anyone who killed Cain would suffer seven times Cain's punishments. Like Cain, Moses' life was spared, and he was exiled after he murdered an Egyptian overseer (Exodus 2:12.)

An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth...and soon, the whole world will be blind and toothless...where does it stop? As one individual, I can only say that it stops with me, and I hope others would take a similar attitude.

I am not a Christian, nor a member of any organized religion, but I am very familiar with the Bible, as well as other sacred texts. I respect their value to those who do follow certain religions, but I am uncomfortable with people using them to selectively hide behind poorly-defined arguments.

[scrivener]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

Respectful disagreement with the original post from me, too, with one disclaimer.

I am against the death penalty precisely because of my Christian beliefs; I, too, have studied the Bible and am convinced that "an eye for an eye" is not part of the new covenant, and even if it were, it wouldn't be the state's job to assess this penalty.

One thing I know from a lifetime of studying the death penalty (and I have read several books on the topic) is that you never really change anybody's mind. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it does mean that nothing I say here is going to change Alohabear's mind about this, and nothing Alohabear writes here is going to change mine.

What I will admit is that, despite my being against the death penalty, the law is clearly designed to get people who commit crimes like this. I maintain that it's wrong for the government to kill its own citizens, but if it's going to, it should be for crimes like Tookie's.

[alohabear]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

My feeling are pretty much like yours..... I'm not for the death penalty for EVERYONE , but for people like Tookie and Scott Peterson it just fits.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

Thank you, scrivener (and thank you, alohabear and anyone else who reads or weighs in on this - I love the level of discussion to which HT can rise sometimes, and even the depths it can sink.)

There are those who will not let Williams' death be forgotten, nor the good deeds he has been doing in the final years of his life - which in the long run, may well counterbalance the crimes for which he was convicted.

There are those who will continue to investigate the questionable aspects of his trials, the flaws in the evidence and testimony, and perhaps someday will show that the State of California killed an innocent man. Or perhaps not, as their research may prove his convictions to be justified.

But I am one who would rather multitudes of the guilty be allowed to live, than risk a single innocent person be put to death.

[scrivener]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

My feeling are pretty much like yours..... I'm not for the death penalty for EVERYONE , but for people like Tookie and Scott Peterson it just fits.

Whoa, whoa. I understand your feelings, but those are not mine! I am not in favor of the death penalty for ANYone. Nobody. We've got too much government in our lives already--the last thing we need is for the government to also put its own citizens to death.

All I am saying is that at least Tookie's execution is in keeping with the spirit of the law such as it exists. And, such as it exists, it sucks.

[LikaNui]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

I am not in favor of the death penalty for ANYone. Nobody. We've got too much government in our lives already--the last thing we need is for the government to also put its own citizens to death.
All I am saying is that at least Tookie's execution is in keeping with the spirit of the law such as it exists. And, such as it exists, it sucks.

Agreed. Word for word.
Got nothing to add to that. Scriv nailed it.

[pzarquon]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

I've been in favor of the death penalty my whole life, in part because I knew sentiments like Alohabear's were inevitable ("I'm totally against it... except for THAT guy..."), and in part because I couldn't accept that the very worst punishment that could be meted out for the most horrific crimes would otherwise be to clothe, feed, house, exercise, educate and provide complete medical care for that criminal for the rest of their natural life -- benefits we don't even afford the poorest and most deserving among us.

But I'm not prone to bloodlust or calling for death at every opportunity... and as LikaNui notes, it's hard to just "accept" that it's an imperfect system. One innocent wrongly put to death is a wrong that, in my mind, negates the value of a hundred justified executions. This in addition to the systematic imbalances that puts primarily certain ethnic groups and people from certain economic classes on Death Row.

Even with my anti-death penalty colleagues here on HT, I can agree that given the law in place, I feel the final outcome for Tookie Williams was appropriate. Absolutely all the good he's done since he's been incarcerated, and the likely sincere change of heart he experienced, should be commended. But it doesn't erase the original crime.

If, indeed, Tookie Williams "redeemed" himself, I think it's irrelevant within the imperfect realm of mankind. The true determination of his soul's worth, and the balance of his good or bad deeds, is left to someone or something far beyond.

[scrivener]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

A former student of mine pointed me to this comment in the Washington Post. I find it particularly well-written. The author's opinion sounds a lot like Pz's.

[Kalalau]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

I think the death penalty sets a horrible example. By killing people, you are saying its OK to kill people. If you want to show that it is NOT OK to kill people, don't kill them. Also, look at the emotions the death penalty appeals to: vengeance and blood lust. Can you think of two any more destructive or downright evil human emotions than vengeance and blood lust? You can't pander to evil without encouraging it. That, I am convinced, is why countries and states that do not have the death penalty have lower crime rates than those that do. The problem with the death penalty is that people LIKE it. Its that positive emotional response to killing people, the feeling that killing someone is perfectly justified, that makes it so destructive.

[sinjin]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

I think the death penalty sets a horrible example. By killing people, you are saying its OK to kill people. If you want to show that it is NOT OK to kill people, don't kill them. Also, look at the emotions the death penalty appeals to: vengeance and blood lust. Can you think of two any more destructive or downright evil human emotions than vengeance and blood lust? You can't pander to evil without encouraging it. That, I am convinced, is why countries and states that do not have the death penalty have lower crime rates than those that do. The problem with the death penalty is that people LIKE it. Its that positive emotional response to killing people, the feeling that killing someone is perfectly justified, that makes it so destructive.

Your opinion that vengeance is evil is just your opinion.

Why do countries without the death penalty have lower crime rates? Maybe because with lower crime rates you don't need it. Maybe people less predisposed to crime are naturally less inclined to support it. Maybe one has nothing to do with the other.

Btw killing people is OK. That has always been the "message". It's just a matter of when and whom.

I do not support the death penalty in case you wonder.

[alohabear]

Re: Tookie Gets Terminated!

I've been in favor of the death penalty my whole life, in part because I knew sentiments like Alohabear's were inevitable ("I'm totally against it... except for THAT guy..."), and in part because I couldn't accept that the very worst punishment that could be meted out for the most horrific crimes would otherwise be to clothe, feed, house, exercise, educate and provide complete medical care for that criminal for the rest of their natural life -- benefits we don't even afford the poorest and most deserving among us.

But I'm not prone to bloodlust or calling for death at every opportunity... and as LikaNui notes, it's hard to just "accept" that it's an imperfect system. One innocent wrongly put to death is a wrong that, in my mind, negates the value of a hundred justified executions. This in addition to the systematic imbalances that puts primarily certain ethnic groups and people from certain economic classes on Death Row.

Even with my anti-death penalty colleagues here on HT, I can agree that given the law in place, I feel the final outcome for Tookie Williams was appropriate. Absolutely all the good he's done since he's been incarcerated, and the likely sincere change of heart he experienced, should be commended. But it doesn't erase the original crime.

If, indeed, Tookie Williams "redeemed" himself, I think it's irrelevant within the imperfect realm of mankind. The true determination of his soul's worth, and the balance of his good or bad deeds, is left to someone or something far beyond.

This is exactly how I feel . Tookie was no Coffey from the "Green Mile" . Most people sentenced to death have done the most heinous crimes, the ones that society is shocked to even think a human would do to another human. Local stories that come to mind are the Dana Ireland and Sarah Fay cases. Who on this board was not "shocked " and thought that if Hawaii had a death penalty these cases would fit the bill. Why should my taxes pay to keep these animals alive? Did these animals think of thier victims families ? Sarah Fay's children now have NO mother... Dana's family will NEVER enjoy Christmas again. At least Tookie's family knows what Tookie's lifestyle did to him and are not "shocked" about it's result.


BTW... good discussion guys ....I love it!