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  • Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

    this question is for that 'eighteen-niney-tree' crowd that always harping ovatrow ovatrow ovatrow.

    if you genuinely believe that the kingdom of hawaii is an 'occupied country' ruled by an illegally invading force, are you sincere enough in your political convictions to engage in espionage or nonviolent sabotage against the United States? during Nazi occupations the french and norwegians for example organized resistance movements to hamper the military occupiers. would you spy for a country that could somehow pressure the United States to "honor its treaty obligations blah blah blah"? would you spy for an enemy country to achieve your political objectives?

  • #2
    Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

    Originally posted by stumphurple
    this question is for that 'eighteen-niney-tree' crowd that always harping ovatrow ovatrow ovatrow.

    if you genuinely believe that the kingdom of hawaii is an 'occupied country' ruled by an illegally invading force, are you sincere enough in your political convictions to engage in espionage or nonviolent sabotage against the United States? during Nazi occupations the french and norwegians for example organized resistance movements to hamper the military occupiers. would you spy for a country that could somehow pressure the United States to "honor its treaty obligations blah blah blah"? would you spy for an enemy country to achieve your political objectives?
    Not to worry..heheheh...da coconut wireless is a powerful thing...as is the alliance between many of the major sovereignty groups (although the press isn't really reporting on this). They don't need to resort to espionage, but they will resort to nonviolence (as in the case of the Hui Malama leader who's in the calaboose for refusing to return some 'iwi to the Bishop Museum). And thanks to the Internet, the groups ARE getting the word out to their friends and supporters all over the world. The kanaka maoli are learning that the way to make things happen is to work through the system, not outside of it.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

      When I first moved to Hilo in 1987, I was hiking & swimming along the rocks going south from King's Beach, when I got too close to some old shacks. I heard someone yell "Haole!" and a shotgun blast. The next day at work, a local told me never to go there, cuz' Hawaiian separatists stay there.

      I was always curious: Not excusing the "gunboat diplomacy" of American missionaries, but if it were a choice between occupation by Americans, Japanese or Russians in the nineteenth century, how much better or worse off would natives be? It is naive to think that the islands would ever be left alone during those days of imperialist expansion.

      Again, I don't excuse or condone exploitation and I mean no disrespect. I talked to some Tahitians about this several years ago, as there is a growing movement away from French influence. I just want to know others' viewpoints.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

        Originally posted by Mahi Waina
        I was always curious: Not excusing the "gunboat diplomacy" of American missionaries, but if it were a choice between occupation by Americans, Japanese or Russians in the nineteenth century, how much better or worse off would natives be? It is naive to think that the islands would ever be left alone during those days of imperialist expansion.
        .
        There's no sense in conjecturing what could/should/might have happened. History is history. All we can do from this point forward is to learn and try not to make the same mistakes again.

        Hawai'i has benefitted from the US, true. But only because of the US military presence. In the meantime, locals have to work 2 or 3 jobs to maintain their standard of living. More and more farmland is being swallowed up by development. How will Hawai'i be able to feed its people if transportation to/from the islands was cut off?

        The kanaka maoli, if allowed to live the way their ancestors did, would be fairly well off, and certainly healthier. They would have their ahupua'a where they would be able to raise enough food to support themselves and their ohana. It's sad to think that there are more kanaka maoli living away from Hawai'i now than reside in the Islands because of the high cost of living.


        Miulang

        P.S. the last ali'i executed treaties with most of the prevailing governments of the time. The only country that didn't honor its treaty was the United States.
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

          Originally posted by Miulang
          Hawai'i has benefitted from the US, true. But only because of the US military presence. In the meantime, locals have to work 2 or 3 jobs to maintain their standard of living. More and more farmland is being swallowed up by development. How will Hawai'i be able to feed its people if transportation to/from the islands was cut off?

          The kanaka maoli, if allowed to live the way their ancestors did, would be fairly well off, and certainly healthier. They would have their ahupua'a where they would be able to raise enough food to support themselves and their ohana. It's sad to think that there are more kanaka maoli living away from Hawai'i now than reside in the Islands because of the high cost of living.

          Miulang

          P.S. the last ali'i executed treaties with most of the prevailing governments of the time. The only country that didn't honor its treaty was the United States.
          as you said, all of this is possible only because of the us military presence.

          the wasteful alii never made provisions for their own national security. while kalakaua was building his lavish palace he didnt even provide for the basic defense of the country. given the strategic position of hawaii in the pacific that was a colossal oversight.

          thank god for america which actually thinks to protect its own citizens with a strong and capable military.

          other countries promptly recognized the republic of hawaii (ie, da ones wen ovatrow da queen). such recognition immediately revokes those other treaties. the kingdom of hawaii no longer exists. thank god!

          Originally posted by Miulang
          Not to worry..heheheh...da coconut wireless is a powerful thing...as is the alliance between many of the major sovereignty groups (although the press isn't really reporting on this). They don't need to resort to espionage, but they will resort to nonviolence (as in the case of the Hui Malama leader who's in the calaboose for refusing to return some 'iwi to the Bishop Museum). And thanks to the Internet, the groups ARE getting the word out to their friends and supporters all over the world. The kanaka maoli are learning that the way to make things happen is to work through the system, not outside of it.
          'working with the system' how like a quisling.

          if americans were really enemy occupiers that would make you collaborationists and traitors. but the truth which you know is that americans protect your rights and freedoms. americans died so that you could have your lil protest marches. you repay that by fomenting anti american propaganda. your lies are exposed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

            I think it's wonderful that stumphurple and miulang have found each other. I truly, truly, do.
            Aloha from Lavagal

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

              Originally posted by stumphurple
              thank god for america which actually thinks to protect its own citizens with a strong and capable military
              Yeah - we're gonna NEED it, after the present administration finishes pissing off the rest of the world.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

                Originally posted by Leo Lakio
                Yeah - we're gonna NEED it, after the present administration finishes pissing off the rest of the world.
                why? thanks to our great victory in the cold war american military supremacy is unmatched. besides america has not pissed off the world. the only angry birds are the surrender-in-a-second french, the germans [former nazis sympathize really well with sadaamists], some insignificant failed countries in latin america and islamic dictatorships. oh and some raving idiot in pyonyang who needs to stop buying missiles and start buying a comb.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

                  Originally posted by stumphurple
                  why? thanks to our great victory in the cold war american military supremacy is unmatched. besides america has not pissed off the world. the only angry birds are the surrender-in-a-second french, the germans [former nazis sympathize really well with sadaamists], some insignificant failed countries in latin america and islamic dictatorships. oh and some raving idiot in pyonyang who needs to stop buying missiles and start buying a comb.
                  Did our military supremacy protect us on September 11, 2001? Did it protect the more than 2000 American souls whose lives were lost in our invasion of Iraq, an invasion based on the flawed intelligence of our supreme network of military and intelligence communities?

                  The danger is in assuming that it is merely the nations to which you refer that we need to protect ourselves from. The world has changed dramatically since the cold war, and there are rogue elements that we need to concern ourselves with. With their abilities to obtain more and more sophisticated weaponry, we need to stop thinking with the outmoded mindset that "we are the big superpower and we will crush you because we are so big and mighty and therefore we are right and you are wrong."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

                    Originally posted by Leo Lakio
                    Did our military supremacy protect us on September 11, 2001? Did it protect the more than 2000 American souls whose lives were lost in our invasion of Iraq, an invasion based on the flawed intelligence of our supreme network of military and intelligence communities?

                    The danger is in assuming that it is merely the nations to which you refer that we need to protect ourselves from. The world has changed dramatically since the cold war, and there are rogue elements that we need to concern ourselves with. With their abilities to obtain more and more sophisticated weaponry, we need to stop thinking with the outmoded mindset that "we are the big superpower and we will crush you because we are so big and mighty and therefore we are right and you are wrong."
                    9/11 was not a military operation. it was a cowardly terrorist attack. still the us has the might and supremacy to retaliate and to destroy al qaeda nerve centers. we toppled the taliban that supported them and brought freedom to the people of afghanistan.

                    every war has intelligence failures. every war also has casualties. thats the price our brave men and women in uniform pay for our freedom. the iraqi people have the opportunity to vote thanks to american military gis.

                    the people criticizing our president today are the same people who criticized reagans strategy of brinkmanship saying that soviets were a fact of life we would just have to deal with. but the president knew better [thats why he was the leader] and smoked the soviets out of their holes to bring freedom to the communist world.

                    as for rogue elements the united states can hunt down these cowards and smoke them out of their holes. since 9/11 no one has dared to attack the us, proof of our effective response. the united states may still suffer future tragedies but we will always be able to rebuild from the loss. we will not fall over like the weak government of the kingdom of hawaii which could not even handle one internal revolt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

                      Originally posted by stumphurple
                      9/11 was not a military operation. it was a cowardly terrorist attack.
                      Which is why I said earlier that the current administration is pissing the rest of the world off; I was not referring simply to select nations.
                      Originally posted by stumphurple
                      still the us has the might and supremacy to retaliate and to destroy al qaeda nerve centers. we toppled the taliban that supported them and brought freedom to the people of afghanistan.
                      Where, exactly, is Osama Bin Laden, the man President Bush said we were after when we went to Afghanistan?
                      Originally posted by stumphurple
                      the people criticizing our president today are the same people who criticized reagans strategy of brinkmanship
                      Patriots all, unwilling to lie down in front of the corrupt steamrollers.
                      Originally posted by stumphurple
                      since 9/11 no one has dared to attack the us
                      Correction: no one has yet succeeded, but they have indeed dared.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

                        al qaeda and other fringe elements do not qualify as 'the rest of the world.' not even osama bin ladin is delusional enough to believe he constitutes the 'rest of the world.'

                        as for bin ladin, he escaped. he is currently hiding in some spider hole with reduced effectiveness. eventually he will be consigned, like the long list of tyrants the us has defeated, to the ash heap of history.

                        characterizing the critics as patriots is your most laughable argument yet. they were pessimist pure and simple who had no faith in the promise of this country. reagan believed we had a mission to defeat the communists. and he did it. none of the nay sayers ever brought up a comparable victory. we would still be dealing with moscows nuclear blackmail today if they had had their way.

                        finally you say some have dared but simply have not succeeded. i will agree with that point but underscore once more that they have been frustrated by the noble intervention of our TRUE patriots: the brave men and women who serve our country.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

                          Try reading this thread first.

                          pax

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Question For Hawaiian Independence Activists

                            Originally posted by stumphurple
                            9/11 was not a military operation. it was a cowardly terrorist attack. still the us has the might and supremacy to retaliate and to destroy al qaeda nerve centers. we toppled the taliban that supported them and brought freedom to the people of afghanistan.

                            every war has intelligence failures. every war also has casualties. thats the price our brave men and women in uniform pay for our freedom. the iraqi people have the opportunity to vote thanks to american military gis.

                            the people criticizing our president today are the same people who criticized reagans strategy of brinkmanship saying that soviets were a fact of life we would just have to deal with. but the president knew better [thats why he was the leader] and smoked the soviets out of their holes to bring freedom to the communist world.

                            as for rogue elements the united states can hunt down these cowards and smoke them out of their holes. since 9/11 no one has dared to attack the us, proof of our effective response. the united states may still suffer future tragedies but we will always be able to rebuild from the loss. we will not fall over like the weak government of the kingdom of hawaii which could not even handle one internal revolt.

                            Are you going to sing the Battle hymn of the Republic next?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Questions for righteoUSness Activists

                              .
                              stumpdslurple: '...the long list of tyrants fascUSts have defeated.'

                              How about the much longer list of tyrants fascUSts have supported when not also installed? Batista in Cuba; genocidal militaucrUSies in Guatemala, El Salvador, Chile, Panama, Philippines and Indonesia; the Samoza oligarchy in Nicaragua, followed by the murderoUS Contras; Pahlavi in Iran; Hussein in Iraq; militant zionUSism in Palestine; Botha et.al in South Africa; Savimbi in Angola; ...

                              In your list of tyrants defeated by fascUSts, do you include Mosaddeq in Iran, Allende in Chile, Qassim in Iraq, Arbenz in Guatemala, Liliuokalani in Hawai'i and similar leaderships not aligned to, installed by, approved by, and/or benefitting to fascUSts?

                              Which tyrants are in your "long list" of those defeated by fascUSts? Let me guess.... Saddam Hussein? The formerly fascUSt-approved, fascUSt-supported tyrant of Iraq, instigator of 1980's fascUSt-approved war on Iran? The infamous German capitalist militarist imperialist Adolph Hitler who took to emulating 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th Century fascUSt imperialUSt of the Americas in a quest of Lebensraum? And, Emperor Hirohito who likewise was following a "national security" path blazed by and well trodden by the West in Asia ?

                              Let us see your "long list of tyrants defeated by US" .
                              Last edited by waioli kai; January 7, 2006, 11:22 AM.

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