Smart-Growth Workshop

[timkona]

Saturday April 1st 10 AM at Wailokoloa Elementary School

This workshop will consist of 2 presenters who will show us what the basic principles of community planning & development should be according to various academic solutions and real world results. If you have never heard of Smart-Growth, you should attend. If you have ever participated in the Politics of NO, you should most certainly attend.

We can grow Hawaii carefully, in the right way. But only if we all learn the right answers together such that we do not bicker later during implementation of good ideas.

These are some of my personal notes on community design:

Mixed-Use, Higher Densities, Preservation of Ag/Open Space, Tax breaks for productive farmers, Tax hikes for land bankers, Taller Buildings, Parking in rear or underneath, Walkable Retail Fronts with a mixture of Residential and Office Upstairs, Concentrated, Higher Density, Mixed Use environments to foster the natural growth of public transportation, Interconnected, grid style street layouts for multiple transportation solutions, NO MORE CUL DE SACS !! Tall Multi-level parking environments to preserve land in the middle of the busiest business areas promote walking solutions for drivers from distances, Smaller Dwelling sizes in multiple story environments to accommodate affordability issues.

[SouthKona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Taller Buildings... Tall Multi-level parking environments

Please, NOT in West Hawaii. I dread the thought of our coastline becoming blocked from view by tall buildings. Of course, by "taller" you may just mean 2-3 story, which would be "taller" than the single level parking areas which now are in Kona, but not too obtrusive.

A few days ago I needed to park near Alii Drive, and it was impossible. (Even with my "secret" spots that I hold ... secret).

[timkona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Please, NOT in West Hawaii. I dread the thought of our coastline becoming blocked from view by tall buildings. Of course, by "taller" you may just mean 2-3 story, which would be "taller" than the single level parking areas which now are in Kona, but not too obtrusive.

A few days ago I needed to park near Alii Drive, and it was impossible. (Even with my "secret" spots that I hold ... secret).

Yup...you're right...and now I'm convinced...if we grow and spread in a single story subdivision style, then we will depend upon our cars more to move greater distances, and will certainly bulldoze all the ag land in the long run

Orange County has had building height restrictions for 35 years.....Now there are no more oranges and the land is covered in neighborhoods of single level homes.

You are the EXACT person who should attend this workshop.

[Jewlipino]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

I like how you think timkona, we HAVE to build up and not out. It simply isn't practical for everyone to try and have their own crappy 1/10th of an acre if it means that we have to keep on importing cars and ruining everything good left in Hawaii. The entire Mililani development on Oahu should have never happened. They plunked 17,000 homes out there and then were 'surprised' when traffic got out of control. No big surprise really since they never built a substantial commercial district out there, which meant from the starting line they were creating, in fact, some 30,000+ new commuters! So now instead of spending money on an effective and efficient public transportation we're blowing multiple millions on expanding H1 DESPITE the fact that it is a well-known phenomena that increasing highway capacity only works in the short run and can never keep pace with the increase in cars on the road. Heck we should just let the Mililani people suffer, they should have known better than to buy a house out there. Mixed-use is the only way to proceed, single use, low density residential zones overtax our infrastructure and have a whole host of negative social effects that we can discuss at length if you want.

Jewlipino

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Saturday April 1st 10 AM at Wailokoloa Elementary School

This workshop will consist of 2 presenters who will show us what the basic principles of community planning & development should be according to various academic solutions and real world results. If you have never heard of Smart-Growth, you should attend. If you have ever participated in the Politics of NO, you should most certainly attend.

We can grow Hawaii carefully, in the right way. But only if we all learn the right answers together such that we do not bicker later during implementation of good ideas.

These are some of my personal notes on community design:

Mixed-Use, Higher Densities, Preservation of Ag/Open Space, Tax breaks for productive farmers, Tax hikes for land bankers, Taller Buildings, Parking in rear or underneath, Walkable Retail Fronts with a mixture of Residential and Office Upstairs, Concentrated, Higher Density, Mixed Use environments to foster the natural growth of public transportation, Interconnected, grid style street layouts for multiple transportation solutions, NO MORE CUL DE SACS !! Tall Multi-level parking environments to preserve land in the middle of the busiest business areas promote walking solutions for drivers from distances, Smaller Dwelling sizes in multiple story environments to accommodate affordability issues.

I agree with these ideas. One area on the B.I. that comes to mind is Kea'au town. The town itself has the potential for a marvelous footprint; walking distance between schools, subdivisions and shops. Of course, there are a bit of changes needed in it right now, but seeing a common goal of parking one's car in one spot and spending the rest of day with the ability to do all one's walking/schooling/shopping (∑ =living) is a good thing!

Instead of cul de sacs, it would be wonderful to have tight commercial centers surrounded by housing. Instead of sprawl, make the population dense and surrounded by ag/land reserves.

As for the B.I. it should get on the ball NOW and lay the tracks for inter-district mass transit.

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Instead of cul de sacs, it would be wonderful to have tight commercial centers surrounded by housing. Instead of sprawl, make the population dense and surrounded by ag/land reserves.

As for the B.I. it should get on the ball NOW and lay the tracks for inter-district mass transit.

Here's what resulted when something like that was attempted in West Los Angeles. Due to a confluence of factors, "affordable" housing there now starts at around $700K.
http://www.playavista.com/about/index.php

Some folks here have already had similar ideas. Here's a link...
http://www.agrivillageshawaii.com/

Unfortunately, farsighted landowners, developers, planners, architects, and government officials, and community members are few and far-between.

[SouthKona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Saturday April 1st 10 AM at Wailokoloa Elementary School

This workshop will consist of 2 presenters who will show us what the basic principles of community planning & development should be according to various academic solutions and real world results.

These are some of my personal notes on community design:
NO MORE CUL DE SACS !!

Waikoloa, how appropriate for a meeting - too bad the workshop did not happen in Waikoloa years ago - maybe Waikoloa would not now be the "largest Cul De Sac" in Hawaii.

Timkona, is the workshop part of the County of Hawaii's CDP (Community Development Plan)?

[timkona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Keaa'u is one EXCELLENT place for Smart-Growth to take root. But can you imagine some crazed seed-eater's response to a 10 story, mixed-multi use building, between the school and the shopping center. The Politics of NO, as practiced by a few of the grossly miseducated, loud mouths on this island, will certainly destroy our island paradise in the long run. It's hard for me to fathom the cognitive dissonance required to simultaneously believe that low density growth and ag space preservation can coexist.

The workshop in Waikoloa is separate from the Kona Community Dev. Plan. But a lesson in Smart-Growth would serve many of our residents well. Especially those trapped in their dogmatic support and belief in the Politics of NO.

[Paul]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

I read a post on this forum that said the science of astronomy will prevent any high rises from being built on the BI since the light they emit would interfere with the telescopes on the various observatories. I suppose Timkona would include this with his so called "politics of NO" but this time it's not the locals doing it.

I think Timkona is twisting things around. He is using his limited knowledge of the subject to promote a "growth at any cost agenda". When the price of land gets too high, that's when high rise buildings should and do go up. Building these things will not bring the price of land down. Instead the price per square foot of land is sure to increase. Try pricing land in any high density area such as Waikiki. Sure the cost of housing will go down a little but living space will be drastically reduced. Timkona is not taking into consideration other costs which are intangiable to him. Many people on the BI are used to large living spaces and reducing this means a reduction in their quality of life. He likes living in a studio apartment but I definately would not. Just having the skyline marred by these buildings would also be a huge cost to those of us who value these things.

I live in Keaau and I don't think the current land prices justify building a ten story apartment. I know Timkona believes the prices will continue to go up but that remains to be seen.

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

I think Timkona is twisting things around. He is using his limited knowledge of the subject to promote a "growth at any cost agenda". When the price of land gets too high, that's when high rise buildings should and do go up. Building these things will not bring the price of land down. Instead the price per square foot of land is sure to increase. Try pricing land in any high density area such as Waikiki. Sure the cost of housing will go down a little but living space will be drastically reduced. Timkona is not taking into consideration other costs which are intangiable to him. Many people on the BI are used to large living spaces and reducing this means a reduction in their quality of life. He likes living in a studio apartment but I definately would not. Just having the skyline marred by these buildings would also be a huge cost to those of us who value these things.

I live in Keaau and I don't think the current land prices justify building a ten story apartment. I know Timkona believes the prices will continue to go up but that remains to be seen.

I agree. Oftentimes, someone with a limited knowledge of "smart growth" can do more harm than good.

[tutusue]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Here's what resulted when something like that was attempted in West Los Angeles. Due to a confluence of factors, "affordable" housing there now starts at around $700K.
http://www.playavista.com/about/index.php[...]

Having lived in SoCal for half of my life I couldn't figure out where Playa Vista might be. The vicinity map was very enlightening and I can understand the high 'affordable' prices. The last time I was in that area was in 1989, for my daughter's graduation from Loyola Marymount U., which sits on a bluff above Playa Vista. There was no development at that time and it was prime land...close to the beach and Marina del Rey and a manageable proximity to Hollywood or LA. So, that's what was finally done with all that vacant land!

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Having lived in SoCal for half of my life I couldn't figure out where Playa Vista might be. The vicinity map was very enlightening and I can understand the high 'affordable' prices. The last time I was in that area was in 1989, for my daughter's graduation from Loyola Marymount U., which sits on a bluff above Playa Vista. There was no development at that time and it was prime land...close to the beach and Marina del Rey and a manageable proximity to Hollywood or LA. So, that's what was finally done with all that vacant land!

Playa Vista is one of the most controversial land development battles in Los Angeles history. It took almost a quarter of a century for all of the parties involved to do something with those heavily degraded Ballona wetlands. During the excavation for Playa Vista, Tongva/Gabrielino Indian burial grounds were discovered, along with an underground methane storage facility. Although it was originally envisioned as a "mixed-use" community, the ongoing litigation caused many potential major employers, like DreamWorks SKG, to abandon their plans to build there. Other than a few small businesses, Playa Vista is just another luxury residential community contributing to the traffic woes of the Los Angeles area and serves as an example of "smart growth" gone awry.

[sinjin]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Playa Vista is just another luxury residential community contributing to the traffic woes of the Los Angeles area and serves as an example of "smart growth" gone awry.

Give that man a cigar.

[sinjin]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

I believe any plan that goes above three or four stories will create more problems than it solves.

[tutusue]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

[...]Although it was originally envisioned as a "mixed-use" community, the ongoing litigation caused many potential major employers, like DreamWorks SKG, to abandon their plans to build there. Other than a few small businesses, Playa Vista is just another luxury residential community contributing to the traffic woes of the Los Angeles area and serves as an example of "smart growth" gone awry.

I checked the community map and, indeed, there is very little in the way of shops and businesses, no schools, only a couple of casual type restaurants, no doctors, dentists, etc. Eventually there will be a Bank of America and a Coldwell Banker. Do you think the 'smart growth' went awry in the overall planning or because of the ongoing litigation that impacted the planning? I'm sure it's not as simple as one or the other!