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  • The sacredness of bones

    As much as I don't like agreeing with Timkona, the truth is the truth. It seems that bones were not so sacred to the Kanaka Maoli of old and this sacredness is a purely recent phenomena. I was just reading this . Human bones were very valuable as raw material for fishhooks. The dead were buried in secret for fear the bones would be dug up to make fishhooks!

    Kahue, sworn: ...I know Puuokihe. It belonged to Kaohe, and above that is where people were buried in old times, when people used to make fish hooks from the bones... Formerly when any one died, on all those lands, Kaao, Kaawikiwiki &c would not wail ‒ at night wrap up [bodies] and take into the mountain and bury secretly, lest the bones be used to make fish hooks... [Volume B:444]

    Nainoa, sworn: ... There are graves on Puuokiha, and also at Iolehaehae, and many other places. In old times, if any one died, could not wail, lest people come and steal their bones for fish hooks; so used to carry body secretly and bury in mountain... [Volume B:447]

  • #2
    Re: The sacredness of bones

    As much as I don't like agreeing with Timkona, the truth is the truth

    Suddenly icicles are growing from the ceiling of my house....could this be hell freezing over?
    FutureNewsNetwork.com
    Energy answers are already here.

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    • #3
      Re: The sacredness of bones

      Everyone has different ideas on what's important in this life and the afterlife, if they even believe there is one.

      I like the comment... We don't bring anything into this world or take anything out. So to me, bones are unimportant. Cemetaries are taking up space that the living could be on. I'm going to be cremated when the time comes and a sea 'burial' for this sailor suits me fine. As far as leaving something behind on this earth... a book would be nice.
      Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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      • #4
        Re: The sacredness of bones

        makes sense to me...reminds me of that story of the housewife that used a certain meatloaf tray to bake her meatloaf because that's the way her mom learned it from her mom and she was adamant that the size of the of the tray was very important to the secret of her delicious meatloaf recipe.

        One day when her grandmother came to visit, she asked her what was so special about using that special sized meatloaf tray...did the size affect the taste? No the grandmother simply replied that that was the only meatloaf tray she had and she'd have used a bigger one if she had one.

        Okay in comparison, what was once conceived as a safety measure turns religious for any concievable reason makes sense.

        Imagine centuries from now, our practice of protecting our identity by safeguarding our Social Security Numbers and Credit card statements may eventually be seen as some sacred ritual where we tear up cerimonial blank sheets of communal paper to signify the protecting of our ancestorial identity for fear of losing our god's rightful place as our protectors. Hey it could happen
        Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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        • #5
          Re: The sacredness of bones

          Hey Craig! Funny, but plausible.
          Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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          • #6
            Re: The sacredness of bones

            Still, if I walked into a completely different society than what I was accustomed to, I would not presume to start shouting and demand them to change any aspect of their way of life, whether it be meatloaf baking habits, document shredding formats or their longheld reverence for any aspect of their ancestors and kupuna. Not that the first two are in any way comparable or have anything whatever to do with the third.
            Last edited by kimo55; April 17, 2006, 09:41 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: The sacredness of bones

              Hey Kimo! You gotta change that signature of yours. It eludes to a bygone era. Jus' choking!
              Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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              • #8
                Re: The sacredness of bones

                Well the only ones that really know what happened eons ago as a practice are now buried underneath some WalMart I guess.

                Anyway I don't want to turn this thread into the DC Police/Moose to HPD spat going on in that thread.

                Whatever the case may be with ancient bones, I'll respect it for whatever it was meant to mean. That's common sense, be respectful of others. That's what Mom always says.
                Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The sacredness of bones

                  Originally posted by craigwatanabe
                  Well the only ones that really know what happened eons ago as a practice are now buried underneath some WalMart I guess.
                  I came here in '64.
                  through years in Hawaii schools and through two Hawaiian stepfathers, I was the proverbal thirsty sponge, the absorbent mind; open to learning of this land, its people and culture, and if I learn tradition and the ways of old and all kine stuffs from the old days are handed down verbally, who am I to say no one alive now, knows nothing of ancient Hawaii? Who da hell am I to tell anyone or any group who was here much longer than I, that they are wrong?
                  Last edited by kimo55; April 17, 2006, 10:27 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: The sacredness of bones

                    Originally posted by Paul
                    As much as I don't like agreeing with Timkona, the truth is the truth. It seems that bones were not so sacred to the Kanaka Maoli of old and this sacredness is a purely recent phenomena. I was just reading this . Human bones were very valuable as raw material for fishhooks. The dead were buried in secret for fear the bones would be dug up to make fishhooks!
                    Your post, as well-intended as it is, is giving me a rash, which inspired me to get off my butt and dig down my books, the authors of whom I name below.

                    The great Hawaiian writers of the 19th century (Ii, Kamakau, Malo, Kalākaua) as well as those Hawaiian-speaking anthologists (Forenander, Andrews, Judd, Emerson) all mention bones in these contexts:
                    -carry great mana
                    -if the person was cherished in life, great care was taken to hide his/her bones quietly lest they be used disdainfully and for the purposes of sorcery.

                    Historical narratives include infinite examples of those who would use bones for sorcery. Here is one, written in 1868, of an ancestor who lived around 300 years earlier.

                    NO LANIKAULA

                    O Lanikaula, oia no kekahi kaula o Molokai mamua, a ua make oia, aia kona luakupapau e waiho nei ma Puuohoku, a ua kapaia no ka inoa oia wahi o Lanikaula, mamuli no o ka inoa o Lanikaula.
                    Ua olelo ia ua Lanikaula nei, he kaua ike a akamai i kona mau la e noho kaula ana.
                    Aka nae, iaia e noho kaula ana, ua hiki loa iaia ke ike i ka make o kekahi alii a kanaka no hoi, mamuli no o kona ike kaula iho.
                    Aka, i ka wa i kokoke mai kona mau la hope, ia manawa, ike ole iho ua Lanikaula nei.
                    Eia ke kumu i olelo ia ai oia aohe ike, iaia no e noho ana i kekahi kakahiaka, maalo ae la kekahi luna a Keahiakawelo o Lanai, me ka uala maka e paa ana ma kona lima, aia maloko oia uala, ua hahao ia ka honoa o na o Lanikaula, a ma ke alo ponoi ae na ka lawe ia ano o ua uala nei, aole he olelo aku o Lanikaula, o kuu honoa no paha keia au e lawe ae nei, he ole loa no.
                    Aia a hiki ka elele a Keahiakawelo i Lanai, a ina po paha i o Kane, oia ka wa i a mai ai ke ahi a Keahiakawelo, akahi no a ike aku o Lanikaula o ka honoa kela ona e puhi ia mai la i ke ahi. Akahi no a manao o Lanikaula e make ana ia, oia Ke kuahaua ia o na kanaka o Molokai e ka i ka pahoa, oia kona lepo e kanu ia ai ke make oia, no ka mea, ina e kanu i ka lepo maoli makau oia o huai ia, a pau na iwi i ka hanaia i makau lawaia, oia iho la kahi ano pokole o ko Lanikaula moolelo.

                    The prophet Lanika'ula

                    Lanika'ula was a great prophet of Moloka'i in ancient times, and where he died is regarded today as his grave near Pu'uhōkū, and it is known today as Lanika'ula, named for the great Lanaka'ula.

                    It was said that Lanika'ula was was brilliant as a war strategist throughout his career as a prophet.

                    However, during his prophet tenure, he was able to foresee when chiefs were going to die, as well as common men, because of this gift of sight.

                    But, when his own end was drawing near, Lanika'ula was not able to see it coming.

                    And the reason it is said that he was unaware, as he was sitting one morning, Keahiakawelo of Lāna'i passed by, and in his hand was a piece of sweet potato, and in that sweet potato was hidden some Lanika'ula's own feces, although on the face of it he was just carrying sweet potato, and which meant that Lanika'ula didn't know to say that "the dung you are carrying is my own and you are not to take it".

                    For the entire journey of Keahiakawelo back to Lāna'i including up to the night of Kāne, the duration of which Keahiakawelo's fires burned, it became clear to Lanika'ula the the dung which fueled those fires was indeed his own. And Lanika'ula then realized that his own death was nearing, and he proclaimed to his trusted men of Moloka'i to ready their daggers and ensure that his everything (blood, dung, skin, personal debris) would be buried as soon as he died, because he was deeply worried that [the sorcerers] would get ahold of his tissues and his bones would be made into fish hooks, and thus ends this short tale of Lanika'ula...translated by PM with an emphasis on authenticity in lieu of tight prose.


                    Of course this is just one example. Most of our ancestral narratives, if they deal with death (and they usually do), include the careful hiding of the bones, never revealing ((where)) because that's not the point. I chose Lanika'ula to give your link its contemporary context and concise narrative. Ulukau is full of similar examples, though I've yet to find a single one that would lead me to conclude like you did above.

                    And as for the "recent phenomena", let's be intellectually honest here. They are: 1)marked graves and
                    2)cremation.

                    Regardless, the Hawaiian Dictionary accurately describes the profound respect that iwi have in our culture, both ancient and contemporary.

                    pax

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                    • #11
                      Re: The sacredness of bones

                      Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o
                      bones in these contexts:
                      -carry great mana
                      -if the person was cherished in life, great care was taken to hide his/her bones quietly lest they be used disdainfully and for the purposes of sorcery.
                      ...describes the profound respect that iwi have in our culture, both ancient and contemporary.
                      this was common knowledge back a little while ago, but now and seemingly more and more, not only is ignorance of Hawaiian culture rampant in the land, many who live here even refute, argue and rebel against that which was part and parcel of (physical and spiritual) daily life in these islands.

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                      • #12
                        Re: The sacredness of bones

                        Originally posted by kimo55
                        this was common knowledge back a little while ago, but now and seemingly more and more, not only is ignorance of Hawaiian culture rampant in the land, many who live here even refute, argue and rebel against that which was part and parcel of (physical and spiritual) daily life in these islands.
                        Ho dat ignorance is one recent phenomena!

                        </fans self>

                        nah. Ignorance is as old as the hills. Gotta keep patient though. And use opportunities to share when they strike.

                        pax

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                        • #13
                          Re: The sacredness of bones

                          yea, THAT ignorance is kinda new and too far reaching.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The sacredness of bones

                            Originally posted by Menehune Man
                            So to me, bones are unimportant.
                            I just wanted to make sure it's understood, that I'm not telling anyone else what or how to believe. I just voiced my own opinion. I understand that Polynesians along with many other cultures believe that some power or spirit remains in the dead bones. I do not, that's all. So there's no ignorance on my part of what other's believe in, it just hasn't changed my mind.
                            Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The sacredness of bones

                              Originally posted by Menehune Man
                              I just wanted to make sure it's understood, that I'm not telling anyone else what or how to believe. I just voiced my own opinion. I understand that Polynesians along with many other cultures believe that some power or spirit remains in the dead bones. I do not, that's all. So there's no ignorance on my part of what other's believe in, it just hasn't changed my mind.

                              No worries as far as I am concerned; I didn't get that at all. For the record, I am not advocating beliefs here. I responded to what I considered were faulty, albeit well-intended conclusions that
                              1)Hawaiian reverence of iwi (bones) is a recent phenomena and
                              2)that human bones were prized materials for fish hooks (as if human bone, when expertly fashioned, holds bait better than any other sort of bone to attract that special school of manini).

                              In fact, great reverence for our iwi is not recent at all, and bones as fish hooks holds the kaona that one's great mana will now be enslaved to work at the pleasure of the sorcerer/thief. But to be clear, I am NOT participating on this thread to slam Paul, you or anyone. In order to be heard, I need to do my best to communicate effectively, which means doing the leg work to find responsible resources and eliminate suspicion of opinion-peddling.

                              Here's to sharing knowledge and moving us forward.

                              Aloha, Pua'i

                              pax

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