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  • Overthrows

    Just ordered 'Overthrows: A Century of Regime Changes from Hawaii to Iraq' by Stephen Kinzer from Amazon. I heard Kinzer on NPR discuss the common pattern in Hawaii, Cuba, etc. where a commercial interest precedes a military response, and the resulting dictatorship is invariably worse for both the victims of the new regimes, and the interests of the U.S.

  • #2
    Re: Overthrows

    Interesting. I missed the interview. Let us know what you think of the book.

    Some local sovereighty groups regularly draw parallels between contemporary U.S. actions abroad and the overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom, but it's not often analyzed as part of broader overall historical reviews by those not directly tied to Hawaii.

    I don't know Kinzer's pedigree, but if he's a genuine "outsider," his perspective would be interesting to me.

    Even moreso if he goes into greater depth than most, and analyzes how some Hawaiians and "local" leaders were involved in the general "Westernization" of Hawaii and even complicit in the events that led to Liliuokalani's ouster, just as some Iraqi elements were backing U.S. action... perhaps similarly driven by larger commercial interests.

    In both Iraq's case and Hawaii's, it's a complicated story. So I hope we get more than lip service as a simple exhibit to prove a point about the war.

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    • #3
      Re: Overthrows

      Stephen Kinzer has reported from over fifty countries for the New York Times, and has published several books, so I'm looking forward to reading what is likely to be a well-researched book.

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      • #4
        Re: Overthrows

        Here's a link to the NPR interview if anyone's interested:

        http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5325069
        * I would be most content if my children grew up to be the kind of people who think decorating consists mostly of building enough bookshelves. *
        - Anna Quindlen

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        • #5
          Re: Overthrows

          How was the book? Did you get a chance to read it? Did they have satisfactorily thorough chapters on Iran and Guatemala?

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          • #6
            Re: Overthrows

            I did just finish reading it, and would highly recommend it. Along with some insight into the motivations of the participants, such as Dole, it also portrays their personality and character, making it interesting to read rather than dry and academic.

            The chapter on Iran is an eye-opener, with direct repercussions to Iraq today. There are chapters on Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Grenada and Cuba that are interrelated and certainly demonstrate how greed, racism and ignorance, especially confusing nationalism with communism, have undermined our future in this hemisphere (think Venezuela.)

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            • #7
              Re: Overthrows

              .....racism...have undermined our future

              A book, with a political view that is agreed with, demonizes racism and folks respect the authors opinion.

              Then you turn to other threads in this forum where racism is thrown about like confetti at a football game.

              So what's it gonna be folks - Racism: good or bad?

              Too funny. The level of cognitive dissonance that I see sometimes in this forum is just laughable.
              FutureNewsNetwork.com
              Energy answers are already here.

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              • #8
                Re: Overthrows

                Originally posted by timkona
                The level of cognitive dissonance that I see sometimes in this forum is just laughable.
                Hey, Tim...I think you could have made your point without adding in the attack of the last line.

                There's been a lot of this on HT lately, where people attack the posters with insults, rather than discussing the topic of the thread (and I will not claim to be innocent of the crime myself.) It drags the intellectual level of the discussion down very quickly, and I think we all need to do a better job of watching ourselves at it.

                Admin has temporarily suspended some posters for this sort of behavior, and outright banned others. You are someone who can make instructive and informative postings, Tim, but you can also get downright nasty towards people, without prompting. I'm asking, just personally and respectfully, that you pay closer attention to the tone of some of your comments, and see if you can avoid the insulting aspects.

                Of course - that also gives you the right to point out if I do it again! Thanks.

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                • #9
                  Re: Overthrows

                  Originally posted by timkona
                  .....racism...have undermined our future

                  A book, with a political view that is agreed with, demonizes racism and folks respect the authors opinion.

                  Then you turn to other threads in this forum where racism is thrown about like confetti at a football game.

                  So what's it gonna be folks - Racism: good or bad?

                  Too funny. The level of cognitive dissonance that I see sometimes in this forum is just laughable.
                  And yet there are a hell of a lot of examples were dissecting political, economic, ethnic, international, national, local, and indigenous issues here on this forum have been wrought without either a)succumbing to racist barbs or e)lowering levels of cognitive dissonance.

                  This complimentary piece of truth is applicable to those on both sides of the issue. Instead of laughing at each other, let's each focus on holding ourselves to high standards of community participation. After all, HT is a fantastic online community.

                  aloha, P

                  pax

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                  • #10
                    Re: Overthrows

                    Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o
                    And yet there are a hell of a lot of examples were dissecting political, economic, ethnic, international, national, local, and indigenous issues here on this forum have been wrought without either a)succumbing to racist barbs or e)lowering levels of cognitive dissonance.

                    This complimentary piece of truth is applicable to those on both sides of the issue. Instead of laughing at each other, let's each focus on holding ourselves to high standards of community participation. After all, HT is a fantastic online community.

                    aloha, P
                    I agree.
                    Ā Ē Ī Ō Ū ā ē ī ō ū -- Just a little something to "cut and paste."

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                    • #11
                      Re: Overthrows

                      heeeey there good-looking! Aren't you a sight for sore eyes.

                      pax

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                      • #12
                        Re: Overthrows

                        Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o
                        heeeey there good-looking! Aren't you a sight for sore eyes.
                        Aloha Pua'i,

                        I got tired of hunting coqui frogs that have the audacity to "chirp" during the day and decided that it was better to fire up the computer and check out the haps at HT instead. I've yet to read the "Overthrows" book; however, it's next on my reading list after I finish "Broken Trust: Greed, Mismanagement & Political Manipulation at America's Largest Charitable Trust" by Samuel P. King and Randall W. Roth.

                        Jonah K
                        Ā Ē Ī Ō Ū ā ē ī ō ū -- Just a little something to "cut and paste."

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                        • #13
                          Re: Overthrows

                          Well Leo....Point taken....touche.....But.......

                          You skillfully dodged the question....Racism: Good or Bad?

                          And Puai....lower levels of cognitive dissonance is a good thing.

                          To summarize - Racism is bad when used as a tool of global domination by imperialistic powers. Racism is good when selectively promoting individual or cultural agendas on a case by case basis.

                          But for the double standard, there would be no standards at all.
                          FutureNewsNetwork.com
                          Energy answers are already here.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Overthrows

                            Just to clarify: The point made in the book was not that racism was used as a tool to dominate, but that it hampered the imperialists' ability to effectively understand and evaluate the situations they were trying to manipulate.

                            I see no cognitive dissonance in having contradictory views on racism in this forum. That's what forums are for!

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                            • #15
                              Re: Overthrows

                              Just to clarify: The point made in the book was not that racism was used as a tool to dominate, but that it hampered the imperialists' ability to effectively understand and evaluate the situations they were trying to manipulate.


                              Racism hampered "__________" ability to effectively understand and evaluate the situations they were trying to manipulate.

                              A) Imperialists
                              B) Hawaiians
                              C) Ku Klux Klan
                              D) Rodney King Rioters
                              E) Railroad Barons who, at first, resisted Chinese labor
                              F) Hitler

                              The author's point is well taken by an anti-racist like myself. When you choose to use racial criteria to separate people, you are traveling down a cognitively dissonant path. Racial behaviors almost always indicate a level of ignorance that mankind must escape from in the long run if we are to survive together.

                              From Affirmative Action to OHA, it is all the same to me.
                              FutureNewsNetwork.com
                              Energy answers are already here.

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