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  • #76
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    You cannot be a solid journalist when you are still a student.
    Well, that's quite a blanket statement.

    Some of the kids we've had here who were students at the time -- ranging from Mary Vorsino to Robbie Dingeman -- are among the most "solid" journalists I've ever met. That they were hired away by a bigger and very competitive paper is pretty much all you need to know about their abilities.

    As for hiring eager, talented and local journalism students as opposed to fussy, top-dollar Mainland professionals who are near retirement, I think I know how I'd spend my money.
    Burl Burlingame
    "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
    honoluluagonizer.com

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    • #77
      Re: small newspapers

      Originally posted by buzz1941 View Post
      As for hiring eager, talented and local journalism students as opposed to fussy, top-dollar Mainland professionals who are near retirement, I think I know how I'd spend my money.
      It's a good thing you're not the boss.

      The Advertiser has the budget to hire the top names in this town. If the Star-Bulletin is hiring green college kids while the Advertiser is cherry-picking their top talent from under their nose... well, again that says something in itself.

      Give Dick a few more hours... he'll probably post his response after 2 a.m.

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      • #78
        Re: small newspapers

        Originally posted by buzz1941 View Post
        Well, that's quite a blanket statement.

        Some of the kids we've had here who were students at the time -- ranging from Mary Vorsino to Robbie Dingeman -- are among the most "solid" journalists I've ever met. That they were hired away by a bigger and very competitive paper is pretty much all you need to know about their abilities.

        As for hiring eager, talented and local journalism students as opposed to fussy, top-dollar Mainland professionals who are near retirement, I think I know how I'd spend my money.

        Yes it is a blanket statement but if you read my earlier post I did say this, "
        There are exceptions such as those who have a knack for researching and writing. There are also those who go back to college to formalize their journalistic experiences."
        Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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        • #79
          Re: small newspapers

          A lot of the Star-Bulletin's top talent started off at the newspaper as "college kids" or at least graduates fresh out of college. That includes writers, photographers and editors.

          Some of them are management today.

          And some of them are the ones the Advertiser hired away from the Bulletin.

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          • #80
            Re: small newspapers

            Just in case this hasn't sunk in, the Advertiser's newsroom budget is somewhat larger than the Star-Bulletin's.

            Now that I think about it, I'm one of the local kids who was hired locally by the Star-Bulletin, just after college.
            Burl Burlingame
            "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
            honoluluagonizer.com

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: small newspapers

              Originally posted by Palolo Joe View Post
              Give Dick a few more hours... he'll probably post his response after 2 a.m.
              Sorry to ruin your fantasies, but this site isn't really a top priority in my life. But since I seem to be so popular, I thought I'd stop in before 2 to say "hi."

              Funny how since I blew the lid off the "S-B hires students" scandal we're suddenly a second-rate paper deserving of contemplation before purchase.

              But whatever.

              It might also shock some to know that a number of people working at the S-B don't have degrees in journalism. Now how terrifying is that? Geez, makes me shudder to think that I have a B.A. in Japanese language, and photo and journalism were things I was doing on the side while in college.

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              • #82
                Re: small newspapers

                Here's another irony -- my degree is in photojournalism (University of Missouri). So naturally, the paper has me working as a writer.

                My second degree program, BTW, was in forensic anthropology. No call for that at the paper either.

                Actually, many of the best journalists have no degrees at all or in other fields. The two biggest knuckleheads I've ever worked with had masters degrees.
                Burl Burlingame
                "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
                honoluluagonizer.com

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: small newspapers

                  Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                  A lot of the Star-Bulletin's top talent started off at the newspaper as "college kids" or at least graduates fresh out of college. That includes writers, photographers and editors.

                  Some of them are management today.

                  And some of them are the ones the Advertiser hired away from the Bulletin.

                  There is a management technique some businesses encorporate by weeding out the deadwood from the rank and files...they promote them.

                  But you said the key two words...started out. You eventually attain some level of perfection in your abilities. As a college student this is your starting point and as such the race has already begun with the front runners having the superior credentials and are two laps ahead as opposed to the college student that has just left the blocks.

                  I'm impressed that the Star Bulletin would give an aspiring journalist the tools and the opportunity to work in a commercial publication as I believe that experience is invaluable and will make for an impressive resume when applying for the Honolulu Advertiser (as it seems is happening from the posts above).

                  Don't get me wrong I have nothing against SB or who they hire. But in a college newspaper where you don't get the experienced journalists, you cannot compare it to either SB or HA. SB may have college students but they are working with proven professionals not college peers who know only as much.

                  College Newspapers are a great place to test one's ideas but there is no room in a commercial publication to "see if it will work". SB and HA have to remain in a strictly business attitude and make every column space useful and valuable. No room for mistakes here.
                  Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: small newspapers

                    Originally posted by dick View Post
                    Sorry to ruin your fantasies, but this site isn't really a top priority in my life. But since I seem to be so popular, I thought I'd stop in before 2 to say "hi."

                    Funny how since I blew the lid off the "S-B hires students" scandal we're suddenly a second-rate paper deserving of contemplation before purchase.

                    But whatever.

                    It might also shock some to know that a number of people working at the S-B don't have degrees in journalism. Now how terrifying is that? Geez, makes me shudder to think that I have a B.A. in Japanese language, and photo and journalism were things I was doing on the side while in college.

                    Dick...um I know a college degree isn't what it's all cracked up to be but now that you've blown the lid off who SB hires, I don't think mentioning the fact that SB hires those without a degree as journalists is helping the cause here.

                    And yes it does come as a shock to me. Your last statement only exemplifies PJ's opinion of SB. But hey for those who don't have degrees but have the knack for writing, this is a good thing right?

                    But from the general public's perception now looking in from the views of two SB writers, both indicate journalism degrees aren't necessary at SB. In a world where degrees are what is needed to move ahead, these statements from the two of you kinda worry me.
                    Last edited by craigwatanabe; January 22, 2007, 12:09 PM.
                    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: small newspapers

                      Originally posted by buzz1941 View Post
                      Here's another irony -- my degree is in photojournalism (University of Missouri). So naturally, the paper has me working as a writer.
                      Well SB must have seen something redeeming in your abilities.

                      I work at Home Depot part time. I don't have to work but I choose to. I had no retail experience (having worked as an electronic and calibration technician since graduating from high school in 1978).

                      So I asked my boss Keoni, "Why did you decide to hire me anyway?" He said, "Craig when I interviewed you I saw in you the desire to help people and that's what I look for in a new hire".

                      Obviously SB thought your writing skills were what they wanted so they hired you for that and it must show because you're still there. I'll assume that HA came knocking on your door already?
                      Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: small newspapers

                        Originally posted by dick View Post
                        Sorry to ruin your fantasies, but this site isn't really a top priority in my life. But since I seem to be so popular, I thought I'd stop in before 2 to say "hi."

                        Funny how since I blew the lid off the "S-B hires students" scandal we're suddenly a second-rate paper deserving of contemplation before purchase.

                        But whatever.

                        It might also shock some to know that a number of people working at the S-B don't have degrees in journalism. Now how terrifying is that? Geez, makes me shudder to think that I have a B.A. in Japanese language, and photo and journalism were things I was doing on the side while in college.
                        Now that's cute. But what I actually meant was that you'd probably come back after 2 a.m. when you were more than a little intoxicated and had the liquid courage to step up to the keyboard.

                        That said, I couldn't care less if you respond. It's not going to change my opinion.

                        But whatever.

                        Go ahead and be proud of your background. Good for you.

                        As a newspaper reader, I'm gonna want to read the copy of reporters who actually know what they're talking about. That comes with experience.

                        Regardless of what your degree was in during college.

                        Hiring current UH students is far from scandalous. But it does show that the SB is looking for the cheapest help it can find, while the Advertiser has the budget to cherry-pick their best talent. You get what you pay for.

                        Personally, I'd rather read something by a reporter with 20 years of experience on a particular subject than someone with just one or two years of experience.

                        In addition, I'd rather read a professional journalist's work, whether they have two years or 20 years of experience, before I'd pick up a copy of Ka Leo as my sole source of news.

                        I'm surprised you find it odd that people will read what you - a Star-Bulletin employee - have to write, and take that into account when making purchasing decisions. Whether you know it or not, your words reflect upon your employer and sure do have an effect on what others think of the paper.
                        Last edited by Palolo Joe; January 22, 2007, 01:33 PM. Reason: Could/couldn't care less... I always screw that one up.

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                        • #87
                          Re: small newspapers

                          Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                          I'll assume that HA came knocking on your door already?
                          hahahaHAha! (Woody Woodpecker laugh)
                          Burl Burlingame
                          "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
                          honoluluagonizer.com

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: small newspapers

                            I don't think anyone is arguing that working for a college newpaper isn't a good training ground for any prospective journalist. I think the orginal point was that a college paper is a small newspaper and is not or should not be construed to be in direct competition with the local dailies, which are profit driven enterprises.

                            The Advertiser is a Gannett paper, and has much greater resources and a lot larger pocketbook than the Star Bulletin, which is owned by a much smaller privately-owned concern. It was David Black's first daily & largest paper until his most recent purchase.
                            That being said, the quality of journalism between the two papers is not overtly affected by dollars, since the Bulletin has consistently received more awards than the Advertiser for several years now after the JOA has expired. The news rooms were also suppose to be operated separately, but they also were not in direct competition with each other since one was strictly a morning paper & the other a afternoon paper.

                            It is in other areas, press capability, websites, number of publications, tabs, sales incentives, etc. that Gannett's money affords the Advertiser to be the market leader.

                            Formal education is a starting point in journalism, but not neccessarily a journalism degree. The ability to write & report concisely, combined with experience is the key regardless of academic acumen.

                            Going back 20-30 years ago it wasn't uncommon for many journalists to lack a formal degree. Many reporters worked their way up from the mail room or gained experience as military journalists. Today it's a different story. Only 11% of working journalist do not some sort of college degree. http://www.poynter.org/content/conte...w.asp?id=28790

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                            • #89
                              Re: small newspapers

                              Thank you for putting it eloquently.

                              I still find it amazing though that not having a professional degree in journalism will still open doors at a major newspaper in Hawaii. But like broadcasting, you don't need a degree in broadcast journalism either and make it in the news rooms.

                              I wonder how those who struggled at UH to get their degrees in Journalism feel when they find out their peers got to the same point in their professional career without a degree.

                              But then again if there are that many without a degree at SB yet so many that work there that have worked at Ka Leo, I don't get it.

                              I would assume that in order to work at Ka Leo you would have to be pursuing a degree in journalism. If SB is hiring former Ka Leo journalists and SB is also hiring journalists without a degree then one could surmise that some of those former Ka Leo journalists failed to complete their course work at UH. Or are these two seperate entities?

                              Eh?
                              Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: small newspapers

                                Journalism degrees and years of experience don't make a great reporter or photographer.

                                What counts is a reporter's ability to get a story and report it fairly. Some have failed to master it after years of trying while some young ones excel at it from the get-go.

                                It's a similar quality in photographers. Some might have earned a degree in photojournalism and couldn't cut it in the real world. While some have degrees in marine zoology and are among the best news/sports photographers in the country.

                                The Bulletin has an interesting mix of staff. Helen Altonn came here on the Lurline. Working alongside her was Mary Vorsino, straight out of college. And then there's everyone else in-between. It's neither age nor years of experience that entirely define the quality of a reporter, photographer or editor. It's skill, raw talent, and a willingness to be there and get it done.

                                As for hiring cheap: The Star-Bulletin can't outspend the Advertiser. But they do seem to try and hire the smartest that they can afford.

                                The Star-Bulletin's knack for consistently winning more awards than its larger competitor, with its less-experienced and lower-paid staff, is a tremendous tribute to that staff's ability and willingness to make the most of its limited resources.

                                And as for being innovative and seeing if "it will work", it's been that way for several years now. They were the first to go online. They were the first to digitally transmit photos from the field. They were the first to do online video reports. They were the first to do bold layout designs. They were the ones who busted out "Broken Trust" which helped put Kamehameha Schools' and Bishop Estates' management back in line.

                                Their content and quality has always been right up there alongside the Advertiser, if not a nose ahead. And the difference is not the people at the top. It's all the staffers and middle management (editors) who make the Star-Bulletin what it is.

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