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  • craigwatanabe
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    I know the SB delivers freebies to some of the elementary schools here on the Big Island as well. Serves as a useful tool in current events.

    One question about Ka Leo...do they deliver? Do they put their print on newsstands anywhere other than on campus?

    If not then I wouldn't consider them as competition as their circulation would be held to a captive base anyway.

    But back to small newspapers...I used to deliver the Hawaii Times (Japanese paper) when I was a kid.

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  • buzz1941
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
    And once again, this is an erroneous assumption. To reiterate, the Honolulu Advertiser and Honolulu Star-Bulletin have been dumping free copies of their newspaper on a daily basis - in the lobbies of the UH M?noa dorms. ... the reason the commercial dailies are doing this is to directly compete with Ka Leo for advertising revenue, and undercut the student publication which relies on these ads to make ends meet.
    Not exactly. It's about building "view" numbers, something the Advertiser started after the JOA divorce. Basically, the school pays the Advertiser a token amount for the paper and the Tiser's thousands of papers dumped there are then considered "paid" subscriptions. This was one of the fishy things that made their circulation figures within ABC suspect.

    BTW, most -- if not all -- of the SB staffers DO have degrees. They're just not in journalism. So what? A J degree is no guarantee the person has the oomph to do the job. Some people are simply born journalists. Robbie Dingeman, for example -- she's one of the best natural journalists out there, and that was apparent even when she a Kalaheo High student working after school at the Sun Press.

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  • Media Guy
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    I could very well be way off base, but I find it hard to believe that either daily would care about the comparatively minuscule amount of advertising revenue Ka Leo generates.

    I think reason they "dump" copies at the UH dorms is to entice a potential subscriber market. These kids will be living out in the larger community in a short amount of time. Not to mention they also patronize the papers advertisers. They are members of the all important 20-45 age group, those thought to have the most discretionary income.

    It also can count in each papers associated demographics, and maybe more importantly towards their total circulation numbers.

    I'm not that up on these programs since they aren't really advertising related, but I know both dailies do distribute papers at intermediate & high schools. I know The Star Bulletin participates in the Newspapers in Education program (NIE). It's managed by Jefferson Finney.

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  • TuNnL
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by Media Guy View Post
    I think the orginal point was that a college paper is a small newspaper and is not or should not be construed to be in direct competition with the local dailies, which are profit driven enterprises.
    And once again, this is an erroneous assumption. To reiterate, the Honolulu Advertiser and Honolulu Star-Bulletin have been dumping free copies of their newspaper on a daily basis - in the lobbies of the UH Mānoa dorms. (This in addition to newsstands around campus) Why don’t K-12 kids get this perk? How about needy non-profits? Senior citizens? Handicapped?

    No, the reason the commercial dailies are doing this is to directly compete with Ka Leo for advertising revenue, and undercut the student publication which relies on these ads to make ends meet. On an ideal basis, Media Guy, you would be correct. Unfortunately, that is not the reality.

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  • Leo Lakio
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    Comparing my experiences in radio, there are similarities. You can go as far as you want getting a broadcast journalism degree but if you don't do the gophering, you won't get far. Those that did the overnights and weekends paid their dues.
    I'll second that. I went to a midwestern community college to pursue an Associate of Arts degree in Broadcast Communications. The college had just launched a public radio station one year before I started, and I said "why don't you have any opportunities for students to do some work here?" They said, "Uh...we don't know...but you can be our first!"

    After a year as a work-study student, I was hired on full-time, based on the abilities I had shown and the grunt work I was willing to do (and I got really good with a razor blade, grease pencil and splice tape!) It took two more years to get the AA degree after that, which meant nothing compared to the work experience itself - which led to a 20-year professional radio career.

    (FWIW, I left the world of paid radio in 1995 for other music-related pursuits; I've done volunteer radio work since 2001.)

    Leave a comment:


  • craigwatanabe
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Okay I'll buy that.

    Comparing my experiences in radio, there are similarities. You can go as far as you want getting a broadcast journalism degree but if you don't do the gophering, you won't get far. Those that did the overnights and weekends paid their dues.

    I remember doing nights and weekends while studying between breaks, and when not at the station or in class, I was at Hamilton pounding the reference books and copying machines.

    Leave a comment:


  • dick
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    I still find it amazing though that not having a professional degree in journalism will still open doors at a major newspaper in Hawaii. But like broadcasting, you don't need a degree in broadcast journalism either and make it in the news rooms.

    I wonder how those who struggled at UH to get their degrees in Journalism feel when they find out their peers got to the same point in their professional career without a degree.

    But then again if there are that many without a degree at SB yet so many that work there that have worked at Ka Leo, I don't get it.

    I would assume that in order to work at Ka Leo you would have to be pursuing a degree in journalism. If SB is hiring former Ka Leo journalists and SB is also hiring journalists without a degree then one could surmise that some of those former Ka Leo journalists failed to complete their course work at UH. Or are these two seperate entities?

    Eh?
    All the journalism degrees in the world won't help you if you don't have an internship or at least decent clips (and don't think that swill they do for class counts). So many of the people being churned out of the UH print J school don't bother to work at Ka Leo, so they don't get clips. They don't get clips and can't get internships. Then they all scratch their heads wondering why they can't get jobs. Because they all think that a J degree is some magical key to work in the real world.

    It's not.

    I worked at Ka Leo, and wasn't in the J program. I found news photo interesting and stuck with it. **And just so some don't think I'm "proud of my background," I'm telling this so people understand how it works in the real world** I shot my ass off doing stuff I wasn't even assigned to do. I knew I needed a good portfolio to get an internship, which I eventually landed at the Advertiser.

    Ka Leo and the J school are completely different entities. You don't have to be in the J school to work there, and you don't have to work there to be in J school. And it always surprises me when we have J school tours of the newsroom and I ask the students "how many of you work at Ka Leo?" Maybe a hand or two are raised out of 15 students. I laugh and tell them, "good luck finding a job."

    Leave a comment:


  • Media Guy
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    I would assume that in order to work at Ka Leo you would have to be pursuing a degree in journalism. If SB is hiring former Ka Leo journalists and SB is also hiring journalists without a degree then one could surmise that some of those former Ka Leo journalists failed to complete their course work at UH. Or are these two seperate entities?

    It's been quite some time since I was a student at UH (25 years), but back then you didn't need to be pursuing a journalism degree to work at Ka Leo. Just demonstrated desire & ability. It's just a matter of mutual interest and the search for practical experience that journalism students would be the majority of individuals working at a college newspaper. As for the SB hiring many without degrees...I wouldn't say it was many anymore. Those employees are just still working there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Composite 2992
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Journalism degrees and years of experience don't make a great reporter or photographer.

    What counts is a reporter's ability to get a story and report it fairly. Some have failed to master it after years of trying while some young ones excel at it from the get-go.

    It's a similar quality in photographers. Some might have earned a degree in photojournalism and couldn't cut it in the real world. While some have degrees in marine zoology and are among the best news/sports photographers in the country.

    The Bulletin has an interesting mix of staff. Helen Altonn came here on the Lurline. Working alongside her was Mary Vorsino, straight out of college. And then there's everyone else in-between. It's neither age nor years of experience that entirely define the quality of a reporter, photographer or editor. It's skill, raw talent, and a willingness to be there and get it done.

    As for hiring cheap: The Star-Bulletin can't outspend the Advertiser. But they do seem to try and hire the smartest that they can afford.

    The Star-Bulletin's knack for consistently winning more awards than its larger competitor, with its less-experienced and lower-paid staff, is a tremendous tribute to that staff's ability and willingness to make the most of its limited resources.

    And as for being innovative and seeing if "it will work", it's been that way for several years now. They were the first to go online. They were the first to digitally transmit photos from the field. They were the first to do online video reports. They were the first to do bold layout designs. They were the ones who busted out "Broken Trust" which helped put Kamehameha Schools' and Bishop Estates' management back in line.

    Their content and quality has always been right up there alongside the Advertiser, if not a nose ahead. And the difference is not the people at the top. It's all the staffers and middle management (editors) who make the Star-Bulletin what it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • craigwatanabe
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Thank you for putting it eloquently.

    I still find it amazing though that not having a professional degree in journalism will still open doors at a major newspaper in Hawaii. But like broadcasting, you don't need a degree in broadcast journalism either and make it in the news rooms.

    I wonder how those who struggled at UH to get their degrees in Journalism feel when they find out their peers got to the same point in their professional career without a degree.

    But then again if there are that many without a degree at SB yet so many that work there that have worked at Ka Leo, I don't get it.

    I would assume that in order to work at Ka Leo you would have to be pursuing a degree in journalism. If SB is hiring former Ka Leo journalists and SB is also hiring journalists without a degree then one could surmise that some of those former Ka Leo journalists failed to complete their course work at UH. Or are these two seperate entities?

    Eh?

    Leave a comment:


  • Media Guy
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    I don't think anyone is arguing that working for a college newpaper isn't a good training ground for any prospective journalist. I think the orginal point was that a college paper is a small newspaper and is not or should not be construed to be in direct competition with the local dailies, which are profit driven enterprises.

    The Advertiser is a Gannett paper, and has much greater resources and a lot larger pocketbook than the Star Bulletin, which is owned by a much smaller privately-owned concern. It was David Black's first daily & largest paper until his most recent purchase.
    That being said, the quality of journalism between the two papers is not overtly affected by dollars, since the Bulletin has consistently received more awards than the Advertiser for several years now after the JOA has expired. The news rooms were also suppose to be operated separately, but they also were not in direct competition with each other since one was strictly a morning paper & the other a afternoon paper.

    It is in other areas, press capability, websites, number of publications, tabs, sales incentives, etc. that Gannett's money affords the Advertiser to be the market leader.

    Formal education is a starting point in journalism, but not neccessarily a journalism degree. The ability to write & report concisely, combined with experience is the key regardless of academic acumen.

    Going back 20-30 years ago it wasn't uncommon for many journalists to lack a formal degree. Many reporters worked their way up from the mail room or gained experience as military journalists. Today it's a different story. Only 11% of working journalist do not some sort of college degree. http://www.poynter.org/content/conte...w.asp?id=28790

    Leave a comment:


  • buzz1941
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    I'll assume that HA came knocking on your door already?
    hahahaHAha! (Woody Woodpecker laugh)

    Leave a comment:


  • Palolo Joe
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by dick View Post
    Sorry to ruin your fantasies, but this site isn't really a top priority in my life. But since I seem to be so popular, I thought I'd stop in before 2 to say "hi."

    Funny how since I blew the lid off the "S-B hires students" scandal we're suddenly a second-rate paper deserving of contemplation before purchase.

    But whatever.

    It might also shock some to know that a number of people working at the S-B don't have degrees in journalism. Now how terrifying is that? Geez, makes me shudder to think that I have a B.A. in Japanese language, and photo and journalism were things I was doing on the side while in college.
    Now that's cute. But what I actually meant was that you'd probably come back after 2 a.m. when you were more than a little intoxicated and had the liquid courage to step up to the keyboard.

    That said, I couldn't care less if you respond. It's not going to change my opinion.

    But whatever.

    Go ahead and be proud of your background. Good for you.

    As a newspaper reader, I'm gonna want to read the copy of reporters who actually know what they're talking about. That comes with experience.

    Regardless of what your degree was in during college.

    Hiring current UH students is far from scandalous. But it does show that the SB is looking for the cheapest help it can find, while the Advertiser has the budget to cherry-pick their best talent. You get what you pay for.

    Personally, I'd rather read something by a reporter with 20 years of experience on a particular subject than someone with just one or two years of experience.

    In addition, I'd rather read a professional journalist's work, whether they have two years or 20 years of experience, before I'd pick up a copy of Ka Leo as my sole source of news.

    I'm surprised you find it odd that people will read what you - a Star-Bulletin employee - have to write, and take that into account when making purchasing decisions. Whether you know it or not, your words reflect upon your employer and sure do have an effect on what others think of the paper.
    Last edited by Palolo Joe; January 22, 2007, 01:33 PM. Reason: Could/couldn't care less... I always screw that one up.

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  • craigwatanabe
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by buzz1941 View Post
    Here's another irony -- my degree is in photojournalism (University of Missouri). So naturally, the paper has me working as a writer.
    Well SB must have seen something redeeming in your abilities.

    I work at Home Depot part time. I don't have to work but I choose to. I had no retail experience (having worked as an electronic and calibration technician since graduating from high school in 1978).

    So I asked my boss Keoni, "Why did you decide to hire me anyway?" He said, "Craig when I interviewed you I saw in you the desire to help people and that's what I look for in a new hire".

    Obviously SB thought your writing skills were what they wanted so they hired you for that and it must show because you're still there. I'll assume that HA came knocking on your door already?

    Leave a comment:


  • craigwatanabe
    replied
    Re: small newspapers

    Originally posted by dick View Post
    Sorry to ruin your fantasies, but this site isn't really a top priority in my life. But since I seem to be so popular, I thought I'd stop in before 2 to say "hi."

    Funny how since I blew the lid off the "S-B hires students" scandal we're suddenly a second-rate paper deserving of contemplation before purchase.

    But whatever.

    It might also shock some to know that a number of people working at the S-B don't have degrees in journalism. Now how terrifying is that? Geez, makes me shudder to think that I have a B.A. in Japanese language, and photo and journalism were things I was doing on the side while in college.

    Dick...um I know a college degree isn't what it's all cracked up to be but now that you've blown the lid off who SB hires, I don't think mentioning the fact that SB hires those without a degree as journalists is helping the cause here.

    And yes it does come as a shock to me. Your last statement only exemplifies PJ's opinion of SB. But hey for those who don't have degrees but have the knack for writing, this is a good thing right?

    But from the general public's perception now looking in from the views of two SB writers, both indicate journalism degrees aren't necessary at SB. In a world where degrees are what is needed to move ahead, these statements from the two of you kinda worry me.
    Last edited by craigwatanabe; January 22, 2007, 12:09 PM.

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