Gun Control

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

When you "disagree", do you mean to be saying that the jury (which you criticized) was wrong to follow the judge's instructions? Or are you saying the judge's instructions were incorrect? Or what?

I'm saying that the judges instructions had nothing to do with the SYG law. I'm saying the jury willfully misinterpreted the judges instructions (if we believe juror B37) and chose to instead engage in "jury nullification."

Perhaps it would have been legal for Martin to have shot Zimmerman. I don't know what relevance you think this has to Zimmerman's trial and acquittal. Are you saying that Zimmerman should have been convicted because Martin could have legally killed him? Or what?

You don't seem to understand or acknowledge that Trayvon had an equal right to defend himself, even more so when he was followed for no apparent reason in his mind, but he was killed by the "pudgy, physically unfit" (Zimmerman's attorney's words) gun nut, because he had a gun and Trayvon didn't. The jury said (through juror B37) that they DID NOT consider Trayvon's right to stand his ground. Apparently this jury feels that Trayvon should have bashed Zimmerman's brains out on the sidewalk (if that indeed was the case of which only Zimmerman is a witness) and killed Zimmerman because they would then be obligated to take Trayvon's word for it since the other guy is dead. Like that would have ever happen in Florida if a 16 years 21 days old black kid murdered an Ecuedoran/white guy and used self defense as an excuse.

The bravado of carrying a fully loaded semi-automatic gun with no internal safety was the cause of the demise of a black youth. For Maui's sake, Zimmerman was taking a fully loaded gun to Target to purchase groceries. I'm glad I don't live in Florida when the person next to you in Target is fully locked and loaded, especially when it is a pudgy, physically unfit idiot like Zimmerman.

STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Gun Control

Aurora Shooting Survivor: 'You Shouldn't Wait Until It (GUN VIOLENCE) Affects You To Start Caring'

Future hopeful shooting survivor: You shouldn't wait until gun violence affects you to start shooting.
If the kid had been armed and killed his relentlessly pursuing assailant in self defense he'd possibly be alive today, only to face another idiotic Florida court system that would have probably found him guilty of murder.

[Kalalau]

Re: Gun Control

"Character. The aggregate of the moral qualities which belong to and distinguish an individual person; the general result of one's distinguishing attributes. That moral predisposition or habit, or aggregate of ethical qualities, which is believed to attach to a person, on the strength of the common opinion and report concerning him. A person's fixed disposition or tendency, as evidenced to others by his habits of life, through the manifestation of which his general reputation for the possession of a character, good or otherwise, is obtained..." Law Dictionary, Black's, Edition Fifth, Abridged.

[GregLee]

Re: Gun Control

I disagree, but I am not an attorney, perhaps you are. I really don't think you want to go there.

I am not an attorney. Did you notice that I was quoting from the judge's instructions to the jury? When you "disagree", do you mean to be saying that the jury (which you criticized) was wrong to follow the judge's instructions? Or are you saying the judge's instructions were incorrect? Or what?

If Trayvon had the gun and not Zimmerman, would he have been justified in shooting and killing Zimmerman because Trayvon "was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.

Perhaps it would have been legal for Martin to have shot Zimmerman. I don't know what relevance you think this has to Zimmerman's trial and acquittal. Are you saying that Zimmerman should have been convicted because Martin could have legally killed him? Or what?

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

The judge charged the jury with considering whether the "stand your ground" principle made Martin's killing lawful.

Zimmerman was NOT charged with violating SYG law. The prosecution did not prosecute on SYG law. The defense offered no defense of SYG law.

Note the third element. If the killing was lawful, Zimmerman was not guilty of second degree murder. That is why the jury had to consider "stand your ground".

I disagree, but I am not an attorney, perhaps you are. I really don't think you want to go there. If Zimmerman had a right to SYG, so did Trayvon when he was followed at close range by Zimmerman over approximately 10 minutes, who did not identify himself, who was instructed by law enforcement not to follow, and who was acting like a "creepy a$$ cracker" in the mind of a 16 years and 21 days old minor. If Trayvon had the gun and not Zimmerman, would he have been justified in shooting and killing Zimmerman because Trayvon "was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself."

STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!

[GregLee]

Re: Gun Control

Actually character witnesses are fairly common.

From the Wikipedia:

In the United States, character evidence is inadmissible in a criminal trial if first offered by the prosecution as circumstantial evidence to show that a defendant is likely to have committed the crime with which he or she is charged—the prosecution may not, in other words, initiate character evidence that shows defendant's propensity to commit a crime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_evidence

[GregLee]

Re: Gun Control

Zimmerman was not charged with violating "stand your ground" law, but juror B37 said that in jury deliberations they did consider whether Zimmerman violated "stand your ground." The jury DID NOT do their job. They did more than "that's all."

The judge charged the jury with considering whether the "stand your ground" principle made Martin's killing lawful. From the jury instructions:

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07...trayvon-martin

The reason this is relevant, contrary to what you say, is that one of the elements of second degree murder, which Zimmerman was charged with, is that the killing is unlawful (from the same reference):

In order for the jury to find Zimmerman guilty of second-degree murder, the prosecution must prove the following three things, beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. Trayvon Martin is dead.
2. The death was caused by the criminal act of George Zimmerman.
3. There was an unlawful killing of Trayvon Martin by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

Note the third element. If the killing was lawful, Zimmerman was not guilty of second degree murder. That is why the jury had to consider "stand your ground".

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

Aurora Shooting Survivor: 'You Shouldn't Wait Until It (GUN VIOLENCE) Affects You To Start Caring'



STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!

[Kalalau]

Re: Gun Control

Actually character witnesses are fairly common. Zimmerman was marketed as a harmless chubby cop wanna be, but I think knowing that he has a history of beating up women and molesting girls gives valuable insight into his personality. Call me old fashioned but to me hitting women is never right, doing that marks a man as the worst kind of scum. The only lower form of life is a molester but Zimmerman seems to have had that ground covered too. It would have been nice if the jury could have known that about his personality. However those genteel white (and one hispanic) racists would have approved the murder of Martin no matter what; he was Black and we all know "those a. holes always get away with it." In Zimmerman's words. Even bleeping out Zimmerman's hateful obscenities hid his real personality from the public. I have never caught Randi in any errors, she is meticulous in checking her facts before she puts them on the air, these accusations against Zimmerman are mighty incendiary, I don't think she would have aired them without firm confirmation.

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

The jury is supposed to decide whether he actually did the crime he is charged with. That's all.

Zimmerman was not charged with violating "stand your ground" law, but juror B37 said that in jury deliberations they did consider whether Zimmerman violated "stand your ground." The jury DID NOT do their job. They did more than "that's all."

STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!

[GregLee]

Re: Gun Control

Had the Randi Rhodes show on the computer this afternoon, KTLK, she had some interesting facts on Zimmerman: girlfriend got a restraining order against him because he beat her up, a female cousin claims he molested her, and his mom is a "loud and proud" racist. Somehow the so minor dirt about Martin having smoked a little herb came out but this much more damaging info on Zimmerman didn't. Oh I do smell a rat.

As I understand it, our legal system does not allow a jury to consider whether an accused is a good person or a bad person, in deciding its verdict, much less whether his mother is a racist, or his cousin once claimed molestation, or his former girlfriend is mad at him. The jury is supposed to decide whether he actually did the crime he is charged with. That's all.

[Kalalau]

Re: Gun Control

Had the Randi Rhodes show on the computer this afternoon, KTLK, she had some interesting facts on Zimmerman: girlfriend got a restraining order against him because he beat her up, a female cousin claims he molested her, and his mom is a "loud and proud" racist. Somehow the so minor dirt about Martin having smoked a little herb came out but this much more damaging info on Zimmerman didn't. Oh I do smell a rat.

Back in the early days of the AFL the Chargers were scheduled to play Houston at Rice Stadium which at the time was segregated, the team said they would not play unless the stadium was integrated, so it was. I think it would be nice if beginning with Black athletes and including sympathetic white athletes, Florida just got boycotted. No more Marlins, Dolphins, Devil Rays. Just reverse the verdict in the Zimmerman case. Why care about the Constitution banning double jeopardy, so what, it also proclaims equal protection under the law and if thats going to be ignored, ignoring the double jeopardy clause is just as legitimate. In fact, its necessary. Fit Florida with a really unpleasant situation. They didn't care who they hurt, give it right back to them and see how they like it. Maybe they won't feel so free to murder Black teenagers if it puts their precious Dolphins and the rest of their pro teams out of business. Maybe get the college athletes to join in, too.

[Kalalau]

Re: Gun Control

Interesting, the law enforcement peoples reactions against background checks. On the surface you might expect that they'd like background checks because it would make their work easier. But they are the authoritarian personality, often. The biggest bully in my high school became a cop. I have met good cops, nice cops, but also rude ones who knew they had the upper hand and used their power to abuse, humiliate, and insult. Zimmerman fits right in, clearly a cop wanna be, throwing his considerable weight around, bullying people. Funny how the public falls in line with that. Some famous psych analysis found criminals and cops have very similar personalities. So law enforcement people being gun fans should be no surprise and opposing laws that would have made their actual work easier is no surprise either, its just another manifestation of that authoritarian drive to dominate people. And you can't dominate people any uh...better...than shooting them, can you.

Cops abusing authority, abusing citizens is one of the prime reasons they often have so much trouble in minority communities. They don't just create mistrust, they create hatred. The LAPD produced the Watts Riots in 1965 and almost 30 years later with none of their racist violence abated they created the Rodney King verdict riots. You cannot plug up a volcano forever. Sooner or later it will explode. And in a country as well armed as America that is really, really asking for trouble. So weed out the abusive authoritarian personalities. Maybe thats why Zimmerman never made the force. Through this whole mess the Dylan song, "Its A Hard Rain Gonna Fall" keeps going through my head.

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

the same fear of the unknown that made the nice lady jurors fine with approving the murder of Martin.

It is a new form of lynching in the South, when armed white men would string up unarmed black men to "teach those uppity blacks a thing or two." Unfortunately many Hispanic people are just as racist toward Blacks as their Anglo counterparts. Zimmerman's mother (from Ecuador I believe) has been quoted in the past with outrageous statements about Blacks. Zimmerman's brother made a fool of himself with racist comments on television a couple of nights ago.

The fact is Trayvon would still be alive today if Zimmerman had not been fortified with his gun.

STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Gun Control

I spent that week at the annual conference of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association...

ILEETA’s 700-plus attendees train cops for the streets...

At ILEETA, I was attending a course on interdicting active mass-murderers when it was announced that the universal background check bill sank in the Senate, and witnessed the audience of police instructors burst out in spontaneous applause.

RUT-ROH!

Gun nuts are training police officers!?!? They may infect them with gun nuttiness!!!

I was at a police seminar on the topic of active shooters...

Another panelist, a retired SWAT lieutenant...

When a retired police chief on the panel announced that he’d just received a text that the UBC had failed to make it through the Senate, the police audience erupted into applause.

OH NOES! It's 2 LATE!