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  • #76
    Re: Gun Control

    Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    ... the NRA ... (they, of course, are not commenting at all about today's tragedy).
    And here it comes, folks; not the NRA, but rather, today's statement from the executive director of Gun Owners of America, Larry Pratt (emphasis mine):
    Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun.”

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    • #77
      Re: Gun Control

      Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
      Then how does Joe have a chance against those with the high firepower and the numbers of fingers on triggers? Gotta move with the times that our original rightsmakers didn't envision if we're going to keep it squared up.
      For those who absurdly believe that having more guns in the hands of more civilians will help stop shooters at public rampages: In 2005, inside a shopping mall in Tacoma, Washington, a civilian named Brendan McKown confronted the assailant with a licensed handgun he was carrying. The assailant pumped several bullets into McKown and wounded six people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. In Tyler, Texas, that same year, a civilian named Mark Wilson fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson, who was a firearms instructor, was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47.

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      • #78
        Re: Gun Control

        Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
        ... read every single bloody detail, then tell us why the inconvenience suffered by gun owners ...
        Gun owners and gun advocates never argued their case on grounds of convenience, so far as I know, so what's the point of this? Nor do most of them deny that looser restrictions on gun ownership will result in more injuries and deaths from guns. So what is the use of repeating over and over that gun ownership results in injuries and deaths from guns? It's obvious. What do you think you're proving? Who do you think you are going to convince to change their minds?
        Greg

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        • #79
          Re: Gun Control

          Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
          For those who absurdly believe that having more guns in the hands of more civilians will help stop shooters at public rampages:
          Anybody can select isolated incidents for their case, but the fact remains that most if not all states that have allowed more guns in the hands of more civilians have indeed lowered the killings of innocents, absurd or not. And one could also counter with, how many lives have been saved by having a gun to protect themselves/others? I'll maintain that if more people carried you'd have had far fewer wrongful deaths to post from that terrible fact sheet of mass killings, and more dead killers to add.
          https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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          • #80
            Re: Gun Control

            Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
            Anybody can select isolated incidents for their case, but the fact remains that most if not all states that have allowed more guns in the hands of more civilians have indeed lowered the killings of innocents, absurd or not. And one could also counter with, how many lives have been saved by having a gun to protect themselves/others? I'll maintain that if more people carried you'd have had far fewer wrongful deaths to post from that terrible fact sheet of mass killings, and more dead killers to add.
            There are no statistics, research, or analysis that support your argument. In fact all the statistics, research, and analysis indicate just the opposite. You are just regurgitating NRA talking points.
            Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

            People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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            • #81
              Re: Gun Control

              There must be a solution. We can't have this keep happening. There are reasonable people on both sides of the issue, there have to be. There have to be perfectly sane, rational gun advocates who have ideas that might be useful to minimize these tragedies. Solutions are seldom perfect but the present situation is intolerable. If we could put a man on the moon we must be able to stop wackos from shooting up theaters, schools, political gatherings, shopping malls and on and on.

              Any ideas? Reasonable ones that have a chance of being adopted, and working...?

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              • #82
                Re: Gun Control

                Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                We're way beyond merely having a gun problem, it's a people problem,
                Yes, there are too many people in American society who suffer from extreme mental illness including paranoia as a result of a complex set of conditions that are unique to the USA.

                I do have a faint streak of gun nuttery in my psyche,
                And that is EXACTLY the reason you and others on this Board should not own guns or have them in the household!

                most of us do
                Not true. Gun ownership is about 47% in the USA right now and most of those 47% are multiple gun owners.
                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Gun Control

                  Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                  What do you think you're proving?
                  That there are sane minds out there who are not intimidated by the NRA and their adherents to speak up and speak out.

                  Who do you think you are going to convince to change their minds?
                  Things will never change unless we keep the issue on the front burner.
                  Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                  People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Gun Control

                    Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                    If we could put a man on the moon we must be able to stop wackos from shooting up theaters, schools, political gatherings, shopping malls and on and on.
                    I don't see why you think that. There will always be a few wackos around who do these things. I'll predict for you what will happen now. In response to demands that they do something, politicians will pass a few laws that have no real effect on preventing future mass killings, voters will think they see progress and forget their outrage until it happens again. It would make more sense to attend to other sorts of deaths, illnesses, injuries that really are preventable.
                    Greg

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Gun Control

                      I love octogenarian Helen's take on just about everything. My favorite blog:

                      http://margaretandhelen.com/2012/12/...ople/#comments

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Gun Control

                        Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                        Who do you think you are going to convince to change their minds?
                        My own mind has been changed. I was more tolerant of gun ownership in this nation until now. I join with matapule (and thousands of other same citizens) in calling for dramatic changes in gun control legislation.

                        Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                        ... the fact remains that most if not all states that have allowed more guns in the hands of more civilians have indeed lowered the killings of innocents ...
                        Fact, eh? Okay - prove it. Give me the stats to back up this fanciful NRA argument. We'd all like to see that.

                        MEANWHILE, I will give you this research to counter your supposed "fact": States with stricter gun-control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-deaths/69354/

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Gun Control

                          Originally posted by tutusue View Post
                          I love octogenarian Helen's take on just about everything. My favorite blog:

                          http://margaretandhelen.com/2012/12/...ople/#comments
                          Helen's conclusion is:
                          There are 314 million Americans and we own almost 300 million guns. That is the very definition of mental illness. I mean it. Really.
                          Does this make any sense at all?

                          I heard a news interview with a Connecticut congressman this morning. Wolf Blitzer asked the distinguished looking gentleman whether he thought new gun laws were needed, and he replied gravely that he was going to have a conversation with his colleagues in Washington about that very thing. He didn't say yes or no, but vowed to talk about it. And that's what Helen says she wants, an intelligent conversation. I'm sure she'll get that.

                          What drivel.
                          Greg

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Gun Control

                            Originally posted by matapule View Post
                            You are just regurgitating NRA talking points.
                            NRA talking points? I don't have any NRA talking points. I don't need no stinking NRA talking points!

                            Originally posted by matapule View Post
                            Yes, there are too many people in American society who suffer from extreme mental illness including paranoia as a result of a complex set of conditions that are unique to the USA.

                            And that is EXACTLY the reason you and others on this Board should not own guns or have them in the household!
                            Check out Leo's link below, it refutes your assertions.

                            Unique to America? Nah..., wish it was tho. Here's just a few over the last decade. Not to mention the reoccurring Chinese fad of hacking up multitudes of small children, which happened yet again just last week. But hey, at least they didn't use a gun...
                            - Zug, Switzerland, September 27, 2001: a man murdered 15 members of a cantonal parliament.
                            - Tours, France, October 29, 2001: four people were killed and 10 wounded when a French railway worker started killing people at a busy intersection in the city.
                            - Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: a man kills eight city councilors after a city council meeting.
                            - Erfurt, Germany on April 26, 2002: a former student kills 18 at a secondary school.
                            - Freising, Germany on February 19, 2002: Three people killed and one wounded.
                            - Turin, Italy on October 15, 2002: Seven people were killed on a hillside overlooking the city.
                            - Madrid, Spain, October 1, 2006: a man kills two employees and wounds another at a company that he was fired from.
                            - Emsdetten, Germany, November 20, 2006: a former student murders 11 people at a high school.
                            - Southern Finland, November 7, 2007: Seven students and the principal were killed at a high school.
                            - Naples, Italy, September 18, 2008: Seven dead and two seriously wounded in a public meeting hall (not included in totals below because it may possibly have involved the mafia).
                            - Kauhajoki, Finland, Sept. 23, 2008: 10 people were shot to death at a college.
                            - Winnenden, Germany, March 11, 2009: a 17-year-old former student killed 15 people, including nine students and three teachers.
                            - Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: ten people injured after a man opened fire on a nursery school.
                            - Athens, Greece, April 10, 2009: three people killed and two people injured by a student at a vocational college.
                            - Rotterdam, Netherlands, April 11, 2009: three people killed and 1 injured at a crowded cafe.
                            - Vienna, Austria, May 24, 2009: one dead and 16 wounded in an attack on a Sikh Temple.
                            - Espoo, Finland, Dec. 31, 2009: 4 killed while shopping at a mall on New Year's Eve.
                            - Cumbria, England, June 2, 2010: 12 people killed by a British taxi driver.

                            Now it's you who is sounding scary. I simply reflect the typical baby booming All-American boy's wonder for things that go bang.

                            Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                            Fact, eh? Okay - prove it. Give me the stats to back up this fanciful NRA argument. We'd all like to see that.
                            MEANWHILE, I will give you this research to counter your supposed "fact": States with stricter gun-control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-deaths/69354/
                            Again, I have no need for the NRA. And I'm sure you can better your cool link with even more studies that say the opposite. I'm merely running on years of listening to discussions by those more informed than myself who state it differently than you or your link. They all say that after the typical brief hot spike in killings it soon levels off and then drops below the former norm.
                            https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Gun Control

                              The Gun Control topic is passionately approached from many angles and what people want to happen moving forward can be downright polarizing.

                              I feel that we each have the right to self protection if we choose it through gun ownership. Responsibility comes with that too.

                              Calling out others on this forum with unsubstantiated accusations and name calling does not further that posters opinion, just shows their own lack of judgement and restraint. IMO
                              Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Gun Control

                                Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                                And for those bringing up the "mental health" issue - DO NOT let that derail the discussion about gun control;
                                Bringing up the issue of dealing with mental health disorders is not a distraction from anything, Leo. At the time of Congresswoman Giffords' near-brush with death, I made clear my thoughts about the need to limit the firepower of weapons that are legally sold to civilians. So you're not talking to somebody who is trying to use mental disorders as a red-herring.

                                I'm all in favor of coming up with changes to gun control legislation that will reduce the possibility of another Collumbine/Sandy Hook tragedy. But as I said in my previous post, efforts directed at gun ownership reform should not overshadow the need to further research, understand, and treat mental disorders that could lead to this kind of destructive behavior. This is not a minor thing. Far from it.

                                I guess my previous post didn't make it clear to you, so I'm going to state it again. Mamoru Takuma, Zheng Mingsheng, and now, Adam Lanza. All three of them carried out mass slaughters of students at a school. Only one of them used firearms in carrying out their massacre. In contrast, all 3 of them suffered from mental abnormality. The point, in case anyone hasn't caught it yet, is this: A person who suffers from some sort of illness that would motivate them to senselessly slaughter a bunch of defenseless kids can and will find a way to carry out their plan, even if they don't have a gun. This is not mere speculation on my part. Crazed killers carving up little kids has actually happened in the past. Tell me how focusing on gun control legislation alone would have stopped the tragedies in Osaka and Nanping from occuring. Explain to everyone how even a total ban on gun ownership (assuming that could successfully be pulled off) would stop a psychopath from building a bomb.

                                Advancements in mental health care would do more than just deter those would-be killers who would gun down all their victims in one day. Consider serial killers like John Wayne Gacy. For all the outrage being directed at the likes of Adam Lanza or Dylan Klebold, Gacy actually killed more victims (at least 33 boys, if not more) than either of the two aforementioned gunmen. So would anyone care to tell me how a ban on assault weapons would have stopped Gacy from preying on as many young boys as he did, one by one?

                                Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                                The best comment I am regularly hearing today: "Today is NOT the day to talk about gun control, today is the day to finally DO SOMETHING about it!"
                                I say, let's advance this discussion to also include more govt. funding for research that would help medical science when it comes to diagnosing and treating mental illness and abnormalities. Let's also devote effort at dealing with the root cause of whatever leads these troubled people on a path towards death and destruction before it even gets to the point of worrying about how to keep firearms out of their hands.
                                Last edited by Frankie's Market; December 15, 2012, 06:24 PM.
                                This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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