Gun Control

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

The Gun Control topic is passionately approached from many angles and what people want to happen moving forward can be downright polarizing.

Just like the last election where the Teapublicans were certain they spoke for the majority in America. They were proven wrong. The issue is only polarizing because some people refuse to acknowledge reality when they are wrong.

I feel that we each have the right to self protection if we choose it through gun ownership.

Independent research shows that there is no consistent self-protection with gun ownership.

Calling out others on this forum with unsubstantiated accusations and name calling does not further that posters opinion, just shows their own lack of judgement and restraint. IMO

Who on this forum are calling out others with what unsubstantiated accusations and name calling? You are dancing around the issue. You are accusing others of lack of judgement and restraint which is an unsubstantiated accusation and name calling. It appears that you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing! Let me repeat: a paranoid gun nut is a paranoid gun nut! Just because you don't agree with me means that I am wrong.

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

Today uaifi and matapule spent lunch and relaxing afternoon with two Doctors of Psychiatry (one working with the criminally insane) and one Doctor of Psychology (well it was my daughter). The subject of the shooting in CT came up. I didn't bring it up, they did. Their question is, why did the shooter have guns that were registered to his mother. They have no information on the sorry incident other than what everyone sees on the news. Their guess, based on their collective experience, is that the shooter maybe forged the mothers name to get the guns but they don't know. They said that psychotic individuals can be very deceitful yet entirely rational.

The issue of gun control did not come up.

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

efforts directed at gun ownership reform should not overshadow the need to further research, understand, and treat mental disorders that could lead to this kind of destructive behavior. This is not a minor thing. Far from it.

Exactly! Are you in favor of increasing your tax rate to fund research in mental illness? It was Reagan who intially "defunded" that kind of research and we have been reaping the "benefits" of that decision since.

Only one of them used firearms in carrying out their massacre.

You have failed to enumerate the death toll in each of the three incidents by weapon type. The intent is to minimize the carnage.

Tell me how focusing on gun control legislation alone would have stopped the tragedies in Osaka and Nanping from occuring. Explain to everyone how even a total ban on gun ownership (assuming that could successfully be pulled off) would stop a psychopath from building a bomb.

It wouldn't stop it. We can never stop every crazy person, we are just trying to minimize the carnage. Just because we can't prevent every incident does not mean that we should stop trying.

So would anyone care to tell me how a ban on assault weapons would have stopped Gacy from preying on as many young boys as he did, one by one?

This anyone would! It wouldn't stop it. We can never stop every crazy person, we are just trying to minimize the carnage. Just because we can't prevent every incident does not mean that we should stop trying.

I say, let's advance this discussion to also include more govt. funding for research that would help medical science when it comes to diagnosing and treating mental illness and abnormalities. Let's also devote effort at dealing with the root cause of whatever leads these troubled people on a path towards death and destruction before it even gets to the point of worrying about how to keep firearms out of their hands.

Okay. Are you in favor of increasing your personal tax rate by say double to fund research by 100 times in mental illness?

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

NRA talking points? I don't have any NRA talking points. I don't need no stinking NRA talking points!

Subliminal projection!

Unique to America? Nah..., wish it was tho. Here's just a few over the last decade. Not to mention the reoccurring Chinese fad of hacking up multitudes of small children, which happened yet again just last week. But hey, at least they didn't use a gun...

And how many were killed? Although it is a despicable action, no one was killed!

- Zug, Switzerland, September 27, 2001: a man murdered 15 members of a cantonal parliament.
- Tours, France, October 29, 2001: four people were killed and 10 wounded when a French railway worker started killing people at a busy intersection in the city.
- Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: a man kills eight city councilors after a city council meeting.
- Erfurt, Germany on April 26, 2002: a former student kills 18 at a secondary school.
- Freising, Germany on February 19, 2002: Three people killed and one wounded.
- Turin, Italy on October 15, 2002: Seven people were killed on a hillside overlooking the city.
- Madrid, Spain, October 1, 2006: a man kills two employees and wounds another at a company that he was fired from.
- Emsdetten, Germany, November 20, 2006: a former student murders 11 people at a high school.
- Southern Finland, November 7, 2007: Seven students and the principal were killed at a high school.
- Naples, Italy, September 18, 2008: Seven dead and two seriously wounded in a public meeting hall (not included in totals below because it may possibly have involved the mafia).
- Kauhajoki, Finland, Sept. 23, 2008: 10 people were shot to death at a college.
- Winnenden, Germany, March 11, 2009: a 17-year-old former student killed 15 people, including nine students and three teachers.
- Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: ten people injured after a man opened fire on a nursery school.
- Athens, Greece, April 10, 2009: three people killed and two people injured by a student at a vocational college.
- Rotterdam, Netherlands, April 11, 2009: three people killed and 1 injured at a crowded cafe.
- Vienna, Austria, May 24, 2009: one dead and 16 wounded in an attack on a Sikh Temple.
- Espoo, Finland, Dec. 31, 2009: 4 killed while shopping at a mall on New Year's Eve.
- Cumbria, England, June 2, 2010: 12 people killed by a British taxi driver.

This is all true, and unfortunate, but the facts are that the USA has a mass murder incident rate of about 10 times the rest of the world combined.

Now it's you who is sounding scary.

Just standing up and speaking out for the truth, scary or not.

I'm merely running on years of listening to discussions by those more informed than myself who state it differently than you or your link.

And who would that be that you are so unwilling to divulge?

[matapule]

Re: Gun Control

I love octogenarian Helen's take on just about everything. My favorite blog:

Helen and I see eye to eye on the relationship of gun ownership and abnormal paranoia.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Gun Control

You have failed to enumerate the death toll in each of the three incidents by weapon type. The intent is to minimize the carnage.

You're talking about "minimizing" the carnage. That's all well and perfectly good. I'm also talking about proactively trying to nip the source of the problem in the bud. No reason on Earth why those efforts have to be mutually exclusive, do they?

We can never stop every crazy person, we are just trying to minimize the carnage. Just because we can't prevent every incident does not mean that we should stop trying.

For the final time, I never said that I was against efforts at reforming gun control legislation. Nobody said it was an either/or situation. It boggles my mind that you seem to be arguing my points.

[Kaonohi]

Criminal Control vs. Gun Control

Not all restrictions on free speech are a breach of the prior restraint doctrine.We need to end violence as public policy in this nation, NOW.

FACT: An angry and/or crazy jerk with a semi-automatic weapon does NOT constitute a "well-regulated militia."

FACT: The Founding Fathers weren't talking about weapons that can kill more people in 2 minutes than died at Lexington and Concord.

Absolutely!

These people are not preserving our democracy, nor advancing our freedoms.

The intent of the 2nd amendment was to allow private ownership of military grade weapons for the reason that we could, as a nation, repel attempts at foreign invasion. It also served as a reason to repel invasion of home, family and person.

What we need to do is preserve those undeniable rights while preserving the rights of innocents to stay alive - which I would say is a more important right in our society.

Don't vilify the NRA; they are merely the first leg in the legislature which preserves our 2nd amendment rights. They represent the wishes of THE PEOPLE, who are a component part of our constitutional laws.

We do not need to abolish gun ownership - we need to ensure that guns such as those that were used illegally, in Connecticut, and elsewhere, do not find their way into the hands of those who would use them improperly.

We need laws that would ensure safe containment of such weapons.

As I have already shared, I am prohibited from buying weapons. Actually, I can still own them under a grandfather clause, but I chose to put them all into my spouse's name for safety reasons. Only she has the combination to open our safe. I need her permission to open the safe - in fact, she must open it! I don't mind at all. She is as fast or faster than I, and at least as good a shot - perhaps even better.

EVERY gun owner should have such a safe, and it should be a legal requirement.
Stolen guns are most often used in illegal gun crimes. EVERY gun should be secured in such a safe - protected from minors, criminals or others. Such a law (easily enforceable) would have prevented the recent Connecticut tragedy.

A 20-year old in Connecticut (who committed the recent debacle) is not old enough to own guns legally. Those guns were obtained illegally, either through theft, illegal sale, or some other method. Additionally, it seems that federal laws regulating the number of rounds per handgun magazine were also ignored.
What good are laws we cannot enforce???????

Our laws are incompetent, our police are incompetent. What a surprise. Police for a long time have claimed they are underpaid and overworked. I concur. Their training is substandard and their regular exercises are neglected. My good friend Boise Carrera would agree. You see what happened to the voice of reason.....

So, where do we go? Control guns? (impossible) or control people (more possible, yet still difficult)?

Do we only allow criminals, police and soldiers to own guns (doesn't work, but after 20 generations or so seems to have an effect, in some cases, so they claim).

There is much more, but this is enough to start. I only own an acre on a stream, but I'll talk about boar attacks, and feral dogs, if prompted as a reason to privately own guns. In addition to previously-mentioned violations of my fenced property (scared away without a shot) and criminals cutting my screen to access my valuables.

My brother-in-law, in Waimanalo, has had several break-ins on his rental properties, and a house formerly rented by "Dog" (the bounty hunter) was mysteriously burned down. My neighbor across the stream was robbed twice within a month. (I think I already mentioned that.)

There are thousands of unemployed, looking anywhere for money, food and... whatever. Thank you, Obama, for your economic policies.
If they haven't found you yet, they will - unless you have good security.

God bless, and good night.

[Kaonohi]

Paranoia Control

Very good Ron. Paranoids like Makapu`pu are just alarmists who tweak the statistics which support their own agendas. They talk like the NRA is like the communist party - quite the opposite!

Unique to America? Nah..., wish it was tho. Here's just a few over the last decade. Not to mention the reoccurring Chinese fad of hacking up multitudes of small children, which happened yet again just last week. But hey, at least they didn't use a gun...
- Zug, Switzerland, September 27, 2001: a man murdered 15 members of a cantonal parliament.
- Tours, France, October 29, 2001: four people were killed and 10 wounded when a French railway worker started killing people at a busy intersection in the city.
- Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: a man kills eight city councilors after a city council meeting.
- Erfurt, Germany on April 26, 2002: a former student kills 18 at a secondary school.
- Freising, Germany on February 19, 2002: Three people killed and one wounded.
- Turin, Italy on October 15, 2002: Seven people were killed on a hillside overlooking the city.
- Madrid, Spain, October 1, 2006: a man kills two employees and wounds another at a company that he was fired from.
- Emsdetten, Germany, November 20, 2006: a former student murders 11 people at a high school.
- Southern Finland, November 7, 2007: Seven students and the principal were killed at a high school.
- Naples, Italy, September 18, 2008: Seven dead and two seriously wounded in a public meeting hall (not included in totals below because it may possibly have involved the mafia).
- Kauhajoki, Finland, Sept. 23, 2008: 10 people were shot to death at a college.
- Winnenden, Germany, March 11, 2009: a 17-year-old former student killed 15 people, including nine students and three teachers.
- Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: ten people injured after a man opened fire on a nursery school.
- Athens, Greece, April 10, 2009: three people killed and two people injured by a student at a vocational college.
- Rotterdam, Netherlands, April 11, 2009: three people killed and 1 injured at a crowded cafe.
- Vienna, Austria, May 24, 2009: one dead and 16 wounded in an attack on a Sikh Temple.
- Espoo, Finland, Dec. 31, 2009: 4 killed while shopping at a mall on New Year's Eve.
- Cumbria, England, June 2, 2010: 12 people killed by a British taxi driver.

Now it's you who is sounding scary. I simply reflect the typical baby booming All-American boy's wonder for things that go bang.

Again, I have no need for the NRA. And I'm sure you can better your cool link with even more studies that say the opposite. I'm merely running on years of listening to discussions by those more informed than myself who state it differently than you or your link. They all say that after the typical brief hot spike in killings it soon levels off and then drops below the former norm.

Looks to me like a natural reaction to overpopulation!

[Kaonohi]

Re: Gun Control

I say, let's advance this discussion to also include more govt. funding for research that would help medical science when it comes to diagnosing and treating mental illness and abnormalities. Let's also devote effort at dealing with the root cause of whatever leads these troubled people on a path towards death and destruction before it even gets to the point of worrying about how to keep firearms out of their hands.

This is not only the most intelligent thing I've heard (seen) you post, Franki, it is also the most intelligent comment I've seen in this entire thread.

Well said!

[Kaonohi]

Idiot Control

Yes, and in the USA, we have a Social Security number. So what?

So what? We don't have to give our sSN at every boundary, state line, or even when we go overseas. In fact, the US Government adises against it. Even when I go in to claim my VA benefits, they ONLY ask for my "last four," i.e., the last four numbers of my SSA #, which only reveals my name.

The use of the SSA# is limited to government financial transactions in most cases - THAT's what!

We are not slaves.

[Menehune Man]

Re: Gun Control

Just like the last election where the Teapublicans were certain they spoke for the majority in America. They were proven wrong. The issue is only polarizing because some people refuse to acknowledge reality when they are wrong.

Independent research shows that there is no consistent self-protection with gun ownership.

Who on this forum are calling out others with what unsubstantiated accusations and name calling? You are dancing around the issue. You are accusing others of lack of judgement and restraint which is an unsubstantiated accusation and name calling. It appears that you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing! Let me repeat: a paranoid gun nut is a paranoid gun nut! Just because you don't agree with me means that I am wrong.

Just want to say that I know of a personal story (not gonna write it here too bad) where owning a gun saved someone from a home invasion of a rapist. So statistics aside she survived well.

Teapublicans as you say has nothing to do with my opinion. Never supported the whole Tea Party only agreed with most of Tom Berg's ideas here in District 1.

Never said you were wrong, only those that generalize the people and name call don't further their opinion well. I'm not a gun nut but feel like you dumped in to some group you've created from forum posts. Hope I'm wrong.

[Kaonohi]

Amendment/Constitution Control

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/reci...&id=D000000082

This is a list of every politician who is receiving money from the NRA to make sure guns are easy to own.

A helpful list, Leo, but I think they are receiving contributions to ensure the continuation of the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution - one tenth of the Bill of Rights, which also contains some other very important freedoms.

I give them my money with no apologies.

PLEASE! Let us not shred the Bill of Rights without sufficient cause. We have lost more lives in unjustified wars than even in gross civilian firearm casualties due to mass killings over our 337+/- years of existence. Whether individual deaths due to firearms is less or greater, I'll let someone else calculate that one, but I won't believe them.

One of the stated purposes of the NRA is to protect the constitution of the United States, particularly focusing on the Second Amendment, which is the right to keep and bear arms, which is already significantly imposed upon, in most cases intelligently, as we would not want Americans carrying UZIs on our civilian streets, which is common in several middle-Eastern, Muslim-controlled countries (evidenced by photos sent back to me).

If you ever doubt the benefits of constitutional freedom, do a bit of traveling, and hope you make it back alive.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Gun Control

Gun nut!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANTI GUN NUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha, I win, I had more exclamation points than you!!!!!!

[Kaonohi]

Re: Gun Control

Wednesday it was an assault in a mall in Portland, OR and today it is an assault in an elementary school in CT. Gun nuts everywhere you look! How many people have to die so gun nuts can cling to their phallic symbols? I am so angry, it takes great restraint to not tell how I really feel about this. What do you nuts want to do now? arm kindergarden children?

The result of these despicable incidents will be a serious effort to remove the gun as a national symbol of paranoia in the USA. Truth and justice will triumph over blackhearted, self-absorbed gun worship.

Bless all who just died so that gun nuts can placate their feelings of impotence. (Four letter word) the NRA and their adherents.

Oh Mata, you could be so much more effective in your crusade if you could detach your emotional self from your posts. phallic symbols? Arm kindergartners? Paranoia? How can you expect anyone to take you seriously and rationally? Obviously, you cannot

Ether you have gone "over the edge" or you are being facetious in your rants. I believe you are honestly serious, but are a bit 'unhinged,'(not unusual). ake a chill pill, man. Your format is an honest and worthwhile one; it deserves your attention. Be clear and certain; Know your facts. You will be more effective!

Don't waste your time trying o vilify the NRA; it's a lost cause. ocus on the issues, instead - you might make progress.

[Kalalau]

Re: Gun Control

A focus seems to be developing on making schools more secure. Not a bad idea but it misses the real point of keeping guns, especially mass killing machines, out of the hands of crazy people. Just yesterday someone who you could safely say was disturbed blew off 50 shots in a parking lot of a mall in So. Cal. What a gargantuan burden it would be on our economy let alone our freedom to put armed guards in every parking lot, in every mall, in every church, at every intersection, etc. It would be like North Korea or Spain under Franco.

Regarding the list of international incidents, it well makes the point that the vast amount of repeat incidents happen mainly in the US. Over and over and over. There will come a day when some committed gun advocate loses someone he or she actually cares about, not just somebody else's 6 year old beloved child, but maybe their own. Not karma, a learning experience. And as we know, experience is the harshest teacher.