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  • Re: Gun Control

    Originally posted by matapule View Post
    Exactly! Are you in favor of increasing your tax rate to fund research in mental illness?

    Okay. Are you in favor of increasing your personal tax rate by say double to fund research by 100 times in mental illness?
    Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    I'm also talking about proactively trying to nip the source of the problem in the bud. No reason on Earth why those efforts have to be mutually exclusive, do they?
    Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question. To use a tired cliche, it is time for people to put their money where their mouth is.........just like those who financially support the NRA

    Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    Tell me how focusing on gun control legislation alone would have stopped the tragedies in Osaka and Nanping from occuring. Explain to everyone how even a total ban on gun ownership (assuming that could successfully be pulled off) would stop a psychopath from building a bomb.

    tell me how a ban on assault weapons would have stopped Gacy from preying on as many young boys as he did, one by one?
    You asked a question, I'm just answering your question. Gun control will not stop violence, but it will minimize it and that is the goal.

    I say, let's advance this discussion to also include more govt. funding for research that would help medical science when it comes to diagnosing and treating mental illness and abnormalities. Let's also devote effort at dealing with the root cause of whatever leads these troubled people on a path towards death and destruction before it even gets to the point of worrying about how to keep firearms out of their hands.
    Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question. To use a tired cliche, it is time for people to put their money where their mouth is.........just like those who financially support the NRA

    Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    You're talking about "minimizing" the carnage. That's all well and perfectly good. I'm also talking about proactively trying to nip the source of the problem in the bud. No reason on Earth why those efforts have to be mutually exclusive, do they?
    No, they are not mutually exclusive. Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question. To use a tired cliche, it is time for people to put their money where their mouth is.........just like those who financially support the NRA?

    For the final time, I never said that I was against efforts at reforming gun control legislation. Nobody said it was an either/or situation. It boggles my mind that you seem to be arguing my points.
    Okay, for the final time, I acknowledge you are in favor of gun control. Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question. To use a tired cliche, it is time for people to put their money where their mouth is.........just like those who financially support the NRA?
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

    Comment


    • Re: Gun Control

      Originally posted by Menehune Man View Post
      Just want to say that I know of a personal story (not gonna write it here too bad) where owning a gun saved someone from a home invasion of a rapist. So statistics aside she survived well.
      Of course it happens infrequently. But the statistics show that she put her life in higher extreme danger when a gun became involved. One anecdotal incident does not invalidate the overwhelming statistical evidence to the contrary.

      Never said you were wrong, only those that generalize the people and name call don't further their opinion well.
      Don't you see that you are doing exactly what you are accusing "those" of doing? Who is name calling?

      Let me make it clear, that anyone who needs multiple guns - hand guns, rifles, assault weapons - for self-protection is a paranoid gun nut. Anyone who has several rounds of ammunition in their home is a paranoid gun nut. If self-protection is the goal, a shot gun with with half a dozen shells would be more than sufficient to hold off a small army. Even that would be over kill. Self-protection is a red herring in the NRA argument. If one gun is not sufficient for home protection, then why two? five? ten? one hundred? Paranoid gun nuts!

      In both 2008 and 2010 the SCOTUS ruled in favor of a broad, strict constructionist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. This was done essentially along severely conservative vs. progressive alignment of the
      Sumpreme Court. Perhaps with the appointment of more progressive members of the Supreme Court in the next four years we will have a more realistic and sane re-evaluation of the 2nd Amendment.
      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

      Comment


      • Re: Gun Control

        You keep missing and discounting my points matapule.
        So I'm done with this topic. Not agreeing to disagree because I don't agree your 'talking points' have merit either. Have a good day!
        Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

        Comment


        • Re: Gun Control

          Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
          Tell us why the inconvenience suffered by gun owners and prospective gun owners under much tighter restrictions on the purchase of guns and ammunition outweighs the death of children in their classrooms, or balance out the loss of Rep. Giffords’ potential with impatience at a waiting period, or frustration at not being able to fire a certain number of bullets per minute.
          December 11, 2012. 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts killed 2 people and himself with a stolen rifle in Clackamas Town Center, Oregon. His motive is unknown.
          September 27, 2012. Five were shot to death by 36-year-old Andrew Engeldinger at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, MN. Three others were wounded. Engeldinger went on a rampage after losing his job, ultimately killing himself.
          August 5, 2012. Six Sikh temple members were killed when 40-year-old US Army veteran Wade Michael Page opened fire in a gurdara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Four others were injured, and Page killed himself.
          July 20, 2012. During the midnight premiere of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, CO, 24-year-old James Holmes killed 12 people and wounded 58. Holmes was arrested outside the theater.
          May 29, 2012. Ian Stawicki opened fire on Cafe Racer Espresso in Seattle, WA, killing 5 and himself after a citywide manhunt.
          April 6, 2012. Jake England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 32, shot 5 black men in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in racially motivated shooting spree. Three died.
          April 2, 2012. A former student, 43-year-old One L. Goh killed 7 people at Oikos University, a Korean Christian college in Oakland, CA. The shooting was the sixth-deadliest school massacre in the US and the deadliest attack on a school since the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.
          October 14, 2011. Eight people died in a shooting at Salon Meritage hair salon in Seal Beach, CA. The gunman, 41-year-old Scott Evans Dekraai, killed six women and two men dead, while just one woman survived. It was Orange County’s deadliest mass killing.
          September 6, 2011. Eduardo Sencion, 32, entered an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, NV and shot 12 people. Five died, including three National Guard members.
          January 8, 2011. Former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D-AZ) was shot in the head when 22-year-old Jared Loughner opened fire on an event she was holding at a Safeway market in Tucson, AZ. Six people died, including Arizona District Court Chief Judge John Roll, one of Giffords’ staffers, and a 9-year-old girl. 19 total were shot. Loughner has been sentenced to seven life terms plus 140 years, without parole.
          August 3, 2010. Omar S. Thornton, 34, gunned down Hartford Beer Distributor in Manchester, CT after getting caught stealing beer. Nine were killed, including Thornton, and two were injured.
          November 5, 2009. Forty-three people were shot by Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan at the Fort Hood army base in Texas. Hasan reportedly yelled “Allahu Akbar!” before opening fire, killing 13 and wounding 29 others.
          April 3, 2009. Jiverly Wong, 41, opened fire at an immigration center in Binghamton, New York before committing suicide. He killed 13 people and wounded 4.
          March 29, 2009. Eight people died in a shooting at the Pinelake Health and Rehab nursing home in Carthage, NC. The gunman, 45-year-old Robert Stewart, was targeting his estranged wife who worked at the home and survived. Stewart was sentenced to life in prison.
          February 14, 2008. Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing 6 and wounding 21. The gunman shot and killed himself before police arrived. It was the fifth-deadliest university shooting in US history.
          February 7, 2008. Six people died and two were injured in a shooting spree at the City Hall in Kirkwood, Missouri. The gunman, Charles Lee Thornton, opened fire during a public meeting after being denied construction contracts he believed he deserved. Thornton was killed by police.
          December 5, 2007. A 19-year-old boy, Robert Hawkins, shot up a department store in the Westroads Mall in Omaha, NE. Hawkins killed 9 people and wounded 4 before killing himself. The semi-automatic rifle he used was stolen from his stepfather’s house.
          April 16, 2007. Virginia Tech became the site of the deadliest school shooting in US history when a student, Seung-Hui Choi, gunned down 56 people. Thirty-two people died in the massacre.
          February 12, 2007. In Salt Lake City’s Trolley Square Mall, 5 people were shot to death and 4 others were wounded by 18-year-old gunman Sulejman Talović. One of the victims was a 16-year-old boy.
          October 2, 2006. An Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster, PA was gunned down by 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts, Roberts separated the boys from the girls, binding and shooting the girls. 5 young girls died, while 6 were injured. Roberts committed suicide afterward.
          March 25, 2006. Seven died and 2 were injured by 28-year-old Kyle Aaron Huff in a shooting spree through Capitol Hill in Seattle, WA. The massacre was the worst killing in Seattle since 1983.
          March 21, 2005. Teenager Jeffrey Weise killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend before opening fire on Red Lake Senior High School, killing 9 people on campus and injuring 5. Weise killed himself.
          March 12, 2005. A Living Church of God meeting was gunned down by 44-year-old church member Terry Michael Ratzmann at a Sheraton hotel in Brookfield, WI. Ratzmann was thought to have had religious motivations, and killed himself after executing the pastor, the pastor’s 16-year-old son, and 7 others. Four were wounded.
          July 8, 2003. Doug Williams, a Lockheed Martin employee, shot up his plant in Meridian, MI in a racially-motivated rampage. He shot 14 people, most of them African American, and killed 7.
          September 15, 1999. Larry Gene Ashbrook opened fire on a Christian rock concert and teen prayer rally at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX. He killed 7 people and wounded 7 others, almost all teenagers. Ashbrook committed suicide.
          July 29, 1999. Mark Orrin Barton, 44, murdered his wife and two children with a hammer before shooting up two Atlanta day trading firms. Barton, a day trader, was believed to be motivated by huge monetary losses. He killed 12 including his family and injured 13 before killing himself.
          April 20, 1999. In the deadliest high school shooting in US history, teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Kiebold shot up Columbine High School in Littleton, CO. They killed 13 people and wounded 21 others. They killed themselves after the massacre.
          Take us back to the more peaceful '60s and the questions are mute, but for too long we've been waiting victims of mass murder. Until we get it under control the public needs to have at least a fighting chance. Most of us won't be donning full body armored protection to go to the store, but having the gun/s of choice at one's side gives the opportunity of potential survival that these dead folks and their loved ones now wish they had. As long as the bad guys have unlimited firepower I want to be ready for them to some degree. It sux that society has been allowed to go so far off the rails, but it is what it is and why should we be limited in protecting ourselves?

          Most, if not all, of these tragedies occurred in 'gun free' zones, nearly all the killers knew this and zeroed in on the easy target areas that would allow them more time to kill more people. It's often a matter of how long it takes for someone with a gun and whom is willing to risk their life in taking the gunman out as to how much worse the event will be.

          Originally posted by matapule View Post
          Subliminal projection!

          And how many were killed? Although it is a despicable action, no one was killed!

          This is all true, and unfortunate, but the facts are that the USA has a mass murder incident rate of about 10 times the rest of the world combined.

          Just standing up and speaking out for the truth, scary or not.

          And who would that be that you are so unwilling to divulge?
          DOH! OK, you got me... wait... what?!

          Not buying it, even discounting Africa, you'll have to offer substantial proof of your highly doubtful counter claim.

          I may want high powered protection, you don't, leave me and my possible guns alone.

          Calm down and be reasonable.

          That's just dumb, many have been killed in such incidents, these 20 children were merely hacked up and badly maimed for life. Sorry, mata, I want thsee guys stopped before they spill blood.

          Originally posted by matapule View Post
          Let me make it clear, that anyone who needs multiple guns - hand guns, rifles, assault weapons - for self-protection is a paranoid gun nut. Anyone who has several rounds of ammunition in their home is a paranoid gun nut. If self-protection is the goal, a shot gun with with half a dozen shells would be more than sufficient to hold off a small army. Even that would be over kill. Self-protection is a red herring in the NRA argument. If one gun is not sufficient for home protection, then why two? five? ten? one hundred? Paranoid gun nuts!
          It's not paranoia when we have so many examples of such need. It's not even rare on the madland now, you can need overkill at any moment if unlucky.
          Last edited by Ron Whitfield; December 16, 2012, 04:21 PM.
          https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

          Comment


          • Re: Gun Control

            Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
            Take us back to the more peaceful '60s and the questions are mute, but for too long we've been waiting victims of mass murder.
            "The more peaceful 60s" is ironic, I guess. In 1970, I was making my way to class under the watchful eyes of armed national guardsmen after protests at Ohio State in the wake of the Kent State massacre, and I had to cope with bomb threats to the building where I was teaching. Sad though it is, the killing in Connecticut is of no social or political significance. That is quite unlike, and much less dangerous than, the unrest of the 60s.
            Greg

            Comment


            • Re: Gun Control

              Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
              Until we get it under control the public needs to have at least a fighting chance.
              We won't get it under control until we enact strict gun control.

              but having the gun/s of choice at one's side gives the opportunity of potential survival
              That is simply not true given scientific research and statistics.

              As long as the bad guys have unlimited firepower I want to be ready for them to some degree. It sux that society has been allowed to go so far off the rails, but it is what it is and why should we be limited in protecting ourselves?
              We won't get it back on the rails until we demand and enact strict gun control.

              Most, if not all, of these tragedies occurred in 'gun free' zones, nearly all the killers knew this and zeroed in on the easy target areas that would allow them more time to kill more people.
              Then why does this not happen in relatively gun free zones like England, Japan, Singapore, etc.? Your conclusion is not borne out by rational thinking. That's why you are a paranoid gun nut.

              It's often a matter of how long it takes for someone with a gun and whom is willing to risk their life in taking the gunman out as to how much worse the event will be.
              That conclusion is not borne out by scientific research and statistics.

              Not buying it, even discounting Africa, you'll have to offer substantial proof of your highly doubtful counter claim.
              Substantiation has been offered here, you are not looking at the reality with rational thinking.

              I may want high powered protection, you don't, leave me and my possible guns alone.
              Your irrational paranoia to live in a violent society does not trump my right to live in a peaceful environment.

              Calm down and be reasonable.
              I'm as calm as I can be after the murder of 20 six and seven year old children and seven adults. My reaction is completely reasonable in light of the magnitude of this disaster. To feel anything else is unreasonable.

              Sorry, mata, I want thsee guys stopped before they spill blood.
              I want to stop all those with an irrational paranoia about gun control because blood is being spilled almost on a weekly basis now.

              you can need overkill at any moment if unlucky.
              That sentiment is irrational and abnormally paranoid given the true facts. I will not be dissuaded from calling it as it is.
              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

              Comment


              • Re: Gun Control

                No point in continuing with this, I'm gonna join MM and let you have at it here.
                https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

                Comment


                • Re: Gun Control

                  Just thought I'd share a link leading to the full text of Pres. Obama's eloquent remarks at the Newtown prayer vigil.

                  Obama's Newtown Speech

                  Here's a brief part that backs up the point I was making about how the mental health aspect of this sad situation is something that should not be lightly regarded.

                  In the coming weeks, I will use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens -- from law enforcement to mental health professionals to parents and educators -- in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this. Because what choice do we have?
                  While it is true that this brief speech does not go into the nitty-gritty details of everything that the POTUS has in mind as a response to the deadly tragedies that have happened in places like Newtown and Virginia Tech, note that he highlights the need to seek the expertise of mental health professionals. Clearly, Obama understands the importance of getting at the root cause of what triggers the behavior that leads to violence, and that gun control measures alone isn't enough. As a matter of fact, note that he didn't explicitly mention gun control in his speech. No doubt, he will have thoughts and proposals in mind when the appropriate time comes, but he didn't make a clarion call on that topic today.
                  This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Gun Control

                    Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                    he highlights the need to seek the expertise of mental health professionals.
                    That sounds useful, and it might help to make mental health services more accessible, perhaps in free walk-in clinics, or maybe just extend the treatments covered by health insurance. Although doing more research would be much cheaper, I don't think that would do much -- it's not that kind of problem.
                    Greg

                    Comment


                    • Re: Gun Control

                      Originally posted by matapule View Post
                      Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question.............Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question. .........Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question. ...........Okay, for the final time, I acknowledge you are in favor of gun control. Then are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You didn't answer that question.
                      Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                      Here's a brief part that backs up the point I was making about how the mental health aspect of this sad situation is something that should not be lightly regarded............note that he highlights the need to seek the expertise of mental health professionals. Clearly, Obama understands the importance of getting at the root cause of what triggers the behavior that leads to violence, and that gun control measures alone isn't enough.
                      Are you in favor, like I am, to pay higher State and Federal taxes to fund more research into mental health issues? You refuse to answer this question. Research and increased services are not "free." There is a cost for this benefit to society. Until the taxpayer is willing to fund these services and research, it is nothing more than lip service.

                      As a matter of fact, note that he didn't explicitly mention gun control in his speech. No doubt, he will have thoughts and proposals in mind when the appropriate time comes, but he didn't make a clarion call on that topic today.
                      And this is where POTUS is WRONG! He should have clearly stated in his speech that he will work for strict gun control measures along with funding increased mental health services. It is time to undo the insanity of the Reagan era!
                      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                      Comment


                      • Re: Gun Control

                        Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                        That sounds useful, and it might help to make mental health services more accessible, perhaps in free walk-in clinics, or maybe just extend the treatments covered by health insurance. Although doing more research would be much cheaper, I don't think that would do much -- it's not that kind of problem.
                        And this is where you show a clear lack of understanding or knowledge of the mental health field of work. You could not be more incorrect. Unfortunately you reflect the sentiment and attitude of the vast majority of Americans toward the study of mental health.

                        It baffles me why a majority of Americans would rather spend their money on guns (which against their own best self-interests) than on solutions to address the problems of a society that is bent on violent self-destruction.

                        STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW.
                        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                        Comment


                        • Re: Gun Control

                          Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                          Who do you think you are going to convince to change their minds?
                          People like Joe Scarborough, host of "Morning Joe" on MSNBC, who described himself as a "conservative Republican" who had been solidly aligned with the NRA during his time in Congress, and had previously held libertarian views on the Second Amendment. On Monday, he said:
                          "I knew that day that the ideologies of my past career were no longer relevant to the future that I want, that I demand for my children. Friday changed everything. It must change everything. We all must begin anew and demand that Washington's old way of doing business is no longer acceptable. Entertainment moguls don't have an absolute right to glorify murder while spreading mayhem in young minds across America. And our Bill of Rights does not guarantee gun manufacturers the absolute right to sell military-style, high-caliber, semi-automatic combat assault rifles with high-capacity magazines to whoever the hell they want.

                          It is time for Congress to put children before deadly dogmas. It's time for politicians to start focusing more on protecting our schoolyards than putting together their next fundraiser. It's time for Washington to stop trying to win endless wars overseas when we're losing the war at home ... For the sake of my four children and yours, I choose life and I choose change."
                          That's why we will remain silent no longer. First step - A law immediately banning semi-automatic weapons & mega-clips. Must have license to own gun. Must pass mental exam.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Gun Control

                            Another Day, More Gun Deaths: Two Police Officers Shot And Killed In Kansas... 3-Year-Old Accidentally Shoots Himself, Dies... Gunman At Large After Shooting Victim 4 Times... Man Shoots Wife... One Person Shot In San Antonio, Gunman Later Shot By Cops... Woman Shot At Campground... Woman Shot To Death, Son 'Thought She Was Sleeping'... 3 Gunned Down In Grand Rapids

                            Shame on you NRA and members.
                            Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                            People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                            Comment


                            • Re: Gun Control

                              Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                              People like Joe Scarborough, host of "Morning Joe" on MSNBC, who described himself as a "conservative Republican" who had been solidly aligned with the NRA during his time in Congress, and had previously held libertarian views on the Second Amendment.
                              Okay, that's one, anyway. But Joe Scarborough is now in the entertainment business.
                              Greg

                              Comment


                              • Re: Gun Control

                                Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                                Okay, that's one, anyway. But Joe Scarborough is now in the entertainment business.
                                Oh Snap! Here's another one of many, " Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.), one of the strongest backers of the National Rifle Association (NRA) in the Democratic Party, said it is time to sit down and have a "sensible, reasonable" debate about gun control in light of the massacre in Newtown, Conn., and expressed an openness to banning assault weapons. " How many more do you want? Simply pathetic!
                                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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