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  • Hating on China

    [warning: wall of text. the topic of this thread goes all over the place. it's pretty much a brain dump. arguments are full of holes. there are also graphic and disturbing images/footage (linked)]

    While I agree the world should be critical of China's human rights record, you need to keep in mind they have a population of 1.3B people. America has 0.3B, four times less than China, and we have a fair number of issues ourselves (Katrina, overflowing prisons, health care). Since problems tend to grow exponentially, China's 4x population might bring them 16x the challenges.

    Without a doubt China and India are significant sources of today's pollution, but you need to remember American and European industrialization is responsible for the current state of our planet. We've gotten past the initial dirty stages, when we pumped thick black smoke into the skies and exploited desperate workers. We're enjoying the fruits of that exploitation, while hypocritically telling other countries they can't rise to power in the same way we did.

    (actually we're still pumping out black smoke and exploiting workers; just not in our own back yard. go go globalization!)

    China's silently giving the West the middle finger, and I say good for them. I would like our planet to stay nice and clean, but I have my doubts, considering human behavior. We all know that smoking is bad for us, that we should exercise more and eat less processed foods, that we shouldn't carry a balance on our credit cards; but we don't change our behavior until we're diagnosed with lung cancer, suffer a heart attack, or have our homes foreclosed.

    Someday Mother Nature is gonna spank us silly. If we survive, maybe we will grow up to be worthy of the power our sciences have given us. If not, no big deal. Mother Nature will have no problem carrying on without us. In fact, the notion that Mother Nature needs to be rescued is an indication of our delusion and self-centeredness. Sure we can sterilize the planet for millions of years, but life will return rich and vibrant as before. It's humanity that needs to be rescued, not the planet.

    Anyways...

    Hating on China is the first step towards mobilizing our citizens to war on China. Soldiers are conditioned to dehumanize and demonize the enemy; it makes killing easier. Weapon systems have become long ranged, removing soldiers from death and carnage (EXTREMELY graphic). TV and the Internet are long range technologies which manipulate citizens into believing they are there, that they understand what's going on, when they really don't.

    Ridiculing the enemy is also another tool which enables soldiers to kill, and for citizens to let it happen. Watch this AC-130 gun camera footage (first rounds impact @ 1:28). Now watch the same footage with a soundtrack.

    Incidentally, I've found infrared gun camera footage to be the closest thing to a snuff film you can find on YouTube (the explosion while the guys are running @ 0:22 is particularly difficult to watch, but the music also makes it "entertaining").

    Three years ago my friend concluded Americans wouldn't bat an eye if we went to war with China. A bit exaggerated, but I can see what he was saying. Sure people will protest and handwave, like they're doing now, but we might let this one slide too, cuz everyone knows how evil China is and how noble we are and gosh darn the planet needs saving.

    Heaven forbid China does something first (or America makes it look like they did). If China is made into a global villain, it might be a good idea to stay in Hawaii if you're Asian.

    Anyways...

    They say the next generation of young adults are enthusiastic about the upcoming presidential election, because they want to make a difference. That's nice.

    In my fantasy world:

    After invading Afghanistan, young Americans would want to speak Farsi. After invading Iraq, young Americans would want to read Arabic. After the Olympics, young Americans would want to learn Cantonese and Mandarin.


    [I made a few comments about soldiers. I know a few ex-soldiers, and I've read a few military authors, but I can't claim to know the military well. I'm interested in hearing from military folks, especially if they think I've gotten the details wrong.]
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  • #2
    Re: Hating on China

    Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    [
    In my fantasy world:

    After invading Afghanistan, young Americans would want to speak Farsi. After invading Iraq, young Americans would want to read Arabic. After the Olympics, young Americans would want to learn Cantonese and Mandarin.
    ]
    Apparently some young Americans do want to learn Chinese. I went to my college orientation last week, and I told the counselor how much I'm looking forward to learning Japanese this fall. Well, he wanted to know why I wasn't enrolling in Chinese instead, as thats what many students are doing this semester. The counselor also stated some crud about China becoming the next biiiiig market in the near future. While that remains to be seen, I told him, I have somewhat of a problem with their views on human freedom and rights, and the way their government chooses to deal with its people. Ended that discussion immediately.

    I guess what irked me most about this meeting was that my counselor was encouraging me to take the 'popular' language this fall. So, there you have it - apparently its 'cool' to learn Chinese right now.
    ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

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    • #3
      Re: Hating on China

      Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
      I'm looking forward to learning Japanese this fall.
      I'm glad you're making the effort to learn another language Sadly I only speak English, even though my parents are bilingual


      I guess what irked me most about this meeting was that my counselor was encouraging me to take the 'popular' language this fall. So, there you have it - apparently its 'cool' to learn Chinese right now.
      I don't blame you for being annoyed. Basically what the counselor was saying is "learn Chinese because that's where the money is". Thank goodness he didn't say something like, "A pretty young woman like you would make a lot of money doing sales in China." I think he would have gotten some whack-whacks! Or at least the evil eye

      In my fantasy world, Americans would be motivated to learn Chinese because of a desire to understand China and it's people. To influence, and be influenced by the Chinese.
      "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
      "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
      "
      Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Hating on China

        Living on Oahu is becoming increasingly risky. If it hits the fan, we are/will be a primary target for a nuke strike, making Pearl Harbor in '41 look like a Sunday soiree, and vaporizing it today.
        https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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        • #5
          Re: Hating on China

          Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
          Living on Oahu is becoming increasingly risky. If it hits the fan, we are/will be a primary target for a nuke strike, making Pearl Harbor in '41 look like a Sunday soiree, and vaporizing it today.
          It has already been that way for decades, it already IS. And don't forget the military stations on the neighbor islands, they are targets, too.
          Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Hating on China

            Thought-provoking post, MJ - thank you. Let's see if it is equally discussion-provoking; I hope so.

            The "dehumanization" aspect is an area that concerns me greatly. How quickly we forget the lessons of the Second World War and its successful propaganda campaigns. Are we setting up China to be the new "yellow peril?"

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            • #7
              Re: Hating on China

              Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
              Living on Oahu is becoming increasingly risky. If it hits the fan, we are/will be a primary target for a nuke strike, making Pearl Harbor in '41 look like a Sunday soiree, and vaporizing it today.
              Every large US city and fixed military installation is at risk. At the moment it's hard to imagine either the US or China going after each other's cities with nukes. Both countries have too much to lose.

              In a wildly what-if scenario, perhaps a high altitude EMP nuke to take out our electronics? That way our ports and infrastructure are preserved, in case China wishes to invade and use Hawaii as a staging point?

              From a purely spectator point of view, I'd be interested in seeing what would happen if we hit China's Three Gorges Dam with a low yield nuke. You just know some boomer sitting on the bottom of the Pacific has it dialed in.

              My gut feeling is the next nuke we see will be either on Israeli, Indian, or Pakistani soil... or maybe somewhere in the former Soviet Union.

              Hawaii has always been vulnerable, due to our geographic isolation. Even if nothing affects us directly, any problems on the US western seaboard, which disrupts the flow of Matson ships, will cause us grief.


              Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
              The "dehumanization" aspect is an area that concerns me greatly. How quickly we forget the lessons of the Second World War and its successful propaganda campaigns. Are we setting up China to be the new "yellow peril?"
              Yup. If the US economy tanks, people will be hungry and desperate. More willing to get into a war, if they're promised it'll bring them relief.

              It seems the job of every country is to demonize other countries. I think governments fear their own citizens first and foremost.
              "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
              "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
              "
              Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Hating on China

                Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                If the US economy tanks, people will be hungry and desperate. More willing to get into a war, if they're promised it'll bring them relief.
                Yet, as the current administration has proved, the US does not require the willingness of its citizens in order to wage war.

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                • #9
                  Re: Hating on China

                  Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                  Yet, as the current administration has proved, the US does not require the willingness of its citizens in order to wage war.
                  Heh yeah, Leo. Most Americans are too busy making ends meet. Both parents working jobs they hate in order to pay the bills and have some form of health insurance. They're just too tired to do anything.

                  If I was a dictator, I would want my citizens to be tired too. Happy, content, and energetic citizens are apt to learn about the world, form their own opinions, and act upon them. Heaven forbid.

                  On a tangent: I wonder why prisoners are so well fed. Those bad boys have some serious muscle on them. You'd think they'd cut down on the protein they're fed.

                  Then again, if they did, the nastiest inmates would horde the food and have an even greater muscle advantage over other inmates. Perhaps it's better to keep them all well fed, so it maintains a balance of power.

                  Who knows? There's rarely a perfect solution.
                  "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                  "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                  "
                  Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Hating on China

                    Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                    Hawaii has always been vulnerable, due to our geographic isolation. Even if nothing affects us directly, any problems on the US western seaboard, which disrupts the flow of Matson ships, will cause us grief....
                    Yup. If the US economy tanks, people will be hungry and desperate.
                    Yes! Hawaii is very vulnerable due to the fact that we depend on the Mainland for most of our food. Why has this been allowed to happen? Hawaii has such great conditions for growing so much of our own food. Yet we keep importing it!? This is soooo wrong!
                    I've heard the ol' argument "nobody can be hired to work on the farms and pick the food for minimum wage." Bah. I've seen guys out picking coconuts because they can be sold, not working for actual money at the time, but for the promise of potential money.
                    Could we maybe try some sort of program whereby instead of prisoners sitting on their butts all day, they can go work on the farms? Prisoners do sign up to work a few times a week, so why aren't they out there farming for the good of us all, to repay their debts to society? Just one potential scenario, but.. That's my fantasy world, MJ! Self sufficient Hawaii! It is possible!
                    ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Hating on China

                      Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                      On a tangent: I wonder why prisoners are so well fed. Those bad boys have some serious muscle on them. You'd think they'd cut down on the protein they're fed...
                      Who knows? There's rarely a perfect solution.
                      Heh heh, let em eat Kahuku sweet corn and Maui onions - while they're picking em!!
                      ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Hating on China

                        Wait, come to think of it, that corn costs like $2 an ear! Same for the onion!
                        ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Hating on China

                          Is China the new Soviet Union?
                          Where's Yakmov Shirmoff and his "In Soviet Union" jokes?
                          Last edited by Walkoff Balk; August 11, 2008, 07:05 PM. Reason: add

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                          • #14
                            Re: Hating on China

                            Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                            Heh heh, let em eat Kahuku sweet corn and Maui onions - while they're picking em!!
                            Haha, lol.


                            Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                            That's my fantasy world, MJ! Self sufficient Hawaii! It is possible!
                            That would be nice, TG

                            Something tells me there would need to be a lot less people in Hawaii. The Native Hawaiians were smart and resourceful people. They probably reached the sustainability limit. Maybe pre-Cook numbers x 10 to take into account modern technology?

                            Land in Hawaii probably makes more money being sold to home developers. I get the feeling agriculture isn't a very profitable business. Not enough to justify the large investment, but who knows.

                            There's probably already informative HT threads on this topic. Anyone have links?
                            "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                            "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                            "
                            Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Hating on China

                              Prisoners sitting on their butts in a jail cell 24/7/365 is paying off their debt to society for their mistakes. Ever tried it? I doubt you'd enjoy it.
                              And, they do not eat well. Those that put on muscle do so by spending their time working out.

                              As far as island/State self-sustainability goes, we can do it, and do it well, if done smartly.
                              Which means we won't at all, even if we tried.
                              It starts with a vision of the obvious and the oblique, and interest/coopperation by politicians.
                              Not gonna happen.
                              In America, we always play catch-up. In times of dire need, this is easily a fatal flaw, especially when not at all geared towards saving out butts.
                              https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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