Haiti earthquake disaster

[matapule]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

5) 1986-present Failed attempts at democratic rule; a brain-drain of doctors, scholars and teachers; near deforestation (from forests covering 60% of the country in the 1920s, to less than 2% by 2006), leading to erosion, desertification and flooding.

I can personally verify both these points, but would modify to 1492-present

I good friend of mine who was Peace Corps in Mali (where French was the official language) eventually joined the Foreign Service. His first assignment was Haiti (because he was fluent in French) where he was the Chief Emmigration Officer, among other things. He had some hilarious stories about some of the ploys that the Haitians would use to try to get a visa to the US, where they would eventually disappear. One male doctor dressed up as a Nun. He didn't get his visa when Greg asked him to translate the Latin "Corpus Christi" (Body of Christ) from the Catholic mass and the "nun" couldn't do it. Greg also went on to marry a local Haitian woman, Defti, who was Roman Catholic like his lily white self. Greg and Defti are stationed in Kenya right now.

I have visited both Haiti and the Dominican Republic where our oldest was a high school foreign exchange student. Haiti is stripped bare of it's forests. The Haitians have used the forest as a source of fuel to cook and keep warm (anything under 70F is cold to them). The DR is lush with tropical forests where cutting wood without a permit is a capital offense. The border between the two countries is a clear cut line of forest, no forest. The Dominican military posts sentries along the border to prevent the Haitians from sneaking across the border at night and cutting wood.

Haiti has the potential to be a tropical paradise like most of its neighbors. Unfortunately, self interest management by oppressor nations and opportunist nationalists sealed its doom long ago. I don't know what the answers are to its long term development.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

Enough of the ridiculous "Satanic contract" crap. Here is what historical/political experts say are the prime reasons for Haiti's status as one of the world's poorest nations ---


1) 1838-1915 France's demand for reparations of 150 million francs (about $21,000,000,000 in today's dollars) to compensate slave owners and their heirs, after Haitian independence, saddling the new country with massive debt.

2) 1915-1934 American occupation, which developed a strong military, leading to the rise of...

3) 1956-1971 Dictator Papa Doc Duvalier's successful coup and cruel dictatorship, supported by the U.S. (as a balance against Communist Cuba).

4) 1971-1986 Baby Doc Duvalier's corrupt dictatorship, following his father's death; thanks to support from the Reagan administration, he was able to flee to France (where he may reside today, though there are reports that he is in New York).

5) 1986-present Failed attempts at democratic rule; a brain-drain of doctors, scholars and teachers; near deforestation (from forests covering 60% of the country in the 1920s, to less than 2% by 2006), leading to erosion, desertification and flooding.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

Kaonohi, why look for a savior? We can each do our part, then we won't be relying on the Messiah to arrive. Also, you may not believe that introducing more food to a population results in an increase in that population when other factors are not limiting, but it is a widely accepted relationship, regardless of species.

Evidently there is a misunderstanding: I'm not waiting or looking for any savior. What I intended was let's not leave anyone behind, because we don't know their future potential. You can't 'do your part' if you're dead.

And of course I know that more food = more population, and less food equals death by starvation in the natural world. We are intelligent animals, however. We can store food for times of lack and not store calories for future use in our body fat.

I hope you just misunderstood me, otherwise I'd think you were constructing a strawman.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

Actually that is not the case. Read the book The Empty Cradle for an eye opening account of how the world is currently being threatened by underpopulation.



K, I don't think that conclusion is based on science. A number of lesser animals aid the sick and dying. Elephants come to mind right off the bat.

Hmmm. On item one, I don't think we are threatened by underpopulation, but by overpopulation by the poor and underprivileged and sensible procreation by the educated. Just my opinion - I'm not playing expert here.

Thanks for catching my generalization, though. I'm aware of caring for the ill and injured by elephants, but it was a generalization, after all. Most animals, even some very intelligent ones, abandon their sick and dying; those that render aid are the exception.

[matapule]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

What makes 'em "lesser"? That implies we have more of a right to existence than do they.

The term "lesser" animals tend to define their overall stage of developemnt. Has nothing to do with their right to exist. I am an advocate of Sea Turtles. Some days I would prefer to hang out with my turtles than some of the humanoids I know.

[salmoned]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

As for my part of the preceding post, of course. They help spread awareness by informing the public, despite the anthropomorphic bias of such programs as 'The Human Spark". PBS is a double plus in my book, though I wish their over-the-air hours would be boosted to equal their cable hours (I don't support the cable company).

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

No worries, it's not on PBS

Do you give them money, at least, since you use their services?

Lesser animals (except dolphins & whales) turn their back on their suffering members.

A number of lesser animals aid the sick and dying.

What makes 'em "lesser"? That implies we have more of a right to existence than do they.

[matapule]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

[salmoned]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

'The Empty Cradle" is a fictional notion based on the misguided mission of the New American Foundation. That mission is for each generation of Americans to live better than the last, by supposedly growing the population and the economy forever. That can't work because we can't grow the population forever. The only way for each generation to live better than the last is for the population to reach a steady state wherein the population does not continually accumulate degradation of the environment. Then we can live better by improving the resources of the last generation rather than growing them. Yes, it calls for a major change in economic and political strategy. It does not call for a continuing growth of the population. The idea that we may now be declining in numbers is absurd (though the author suggests it in the first chapter of his book, and I certainly wish it were so).

Craig, 'the last one won't care anyway since it won't matter at that point'? Why, because those hundreds or thousands of your descendants (assuming your children multiply and that pattern continues for a few iterations) will be enjoying the rapture? Or because after you die, you simply don't care about the suffering of future generations? Yes, it must be the latter.

Kaonohi, why look for a savior? We can each do our part, then we won't be relying on the Messiah to arrive. Also, you may not believe that introducing more food to a population results in an increase in that population when other factors are not limiting, but it is a widely accepted relationship, regardless of species.

[matapule]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

With six boys I'm countering that theory. I look at it this way, my six kids will help support me thru Social Security deductions. It may be the biggest ponzy scheme but the last one won't care anyway since it won't matter at that point.

Six boys? Some people are gluttons for punishment. The only thing worse would be six daughters!

But you get the point. Those six boys will support you in your old age through SS contributions, but who is going to support them when they retire? My two children, daughters, have elected not to have children. Who is goinng to support them?

It's a conundrum, but we're way off topic here, and I apologize for it.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

Actually that is not the case. Read the book The Empty Cradle for an eye opening account of how the world is currently being threatened by underpopulation.

With six boys I'm countering that theory. I look at it this way, my six kids will help support me thru Social Security deductions. It may be the biggest ponzy scheme but the last one won't care anyway since it won't matter at that point.

[matapule]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

Everybody wants kids as a survival and conquest strategy.

Actually that is not the case. Read the book The Empty Cradle for an eye opening account of how the world is currently being threatened by underpopulation.

Lesser animals (except dolphins & whales) turn their back on their suffering members.

K, I don't think that conclusion is based on science. A number of lesser animals aid the sick and dying. Elephants come to mind right off the bat.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

Almost everyone is going to misunderstand you on this one, sal-mon-ed, whomever. Me to a lesser degree, I hope.

It seems I am being misunderstood here. I am not showing disgust for my fellow humans (Tutusue), I am merely expressing the opinion that if we provide aid now, we will forever bear responsibility for all the pain and suffering resulting from that aid. If we increase Haiti's food supply, we will be effectively increasing Haiti's population and their population problem will be our fault to the degree in which we abet it.

Yeah. Poorer populations increase partly because that is part of their survival strategy.
Advanced populations overpopulate because it's "us against them."
Everybody wants kids as a survival and conquest strategy.
Little do they know it is a genocide strategy - these mouths must be fed.
Nature steps in and reduced populations. Sometimes seemingly at random, sometimes the reason is obvious (overcrowding = disease).

It's natural. Natural is good, even if it hurts.

It so happens I believe the most necessary help I can provide to humanity is to work toward the reduction of the world's human population and the preservation of the diversity of species. I believe these efforts will best lead to the continuation of our species for the greatest duration possible, my ultimate goal for our species. All my charitable giving goes toward those causes (with nothing left over for disaster relief).

Earth can only support so much, so many. Already we take more space than is fair.

My strategy is different than yours. It may be that someone I save through disaster relief - because they know the pain of overpopulation - may be the ONE who helps us balance our population on Earth.

There will be always innumerable disasters, and dead victims. The survivors should be helped, because they may turn around and help humanity - out of their experience. Bury the dead, help the living. Reduce overpopulation, for surely it will otherwise kill us.

is there less suffering now as a result of decades of aid or more? Is the need for aid less now or greater? Will we ever see the need for aid abated through the efforts of aid workers? I suggest there is more suffering now, more need for aid now, and we will never see the overall need for aid abated via the efforts of aid workers. That effort is simply stoking the fire, not quenching it.

There will always be suffering, and I don't think it has any relation to aid at all. I hope, too, that in spite of our troubles we retain,and not discard our humanity - that we help those who are in need is what makes us human. Lesser animals (except dolphins & whales) turn their back on their suffering members. We should be better than that.

[salmoned]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

No worries, it's not on PBS - thanks for the shout out.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

"Hope For Haiti" musical telethon on TV tonight - on multiple channels (salmoned, better listen to music and drink old wine tonight; keep your TV off).

Quincy Jones has plans for Haiti-relief anniversary update of "We Are The World" to be recorded Feb. 1, the morning after the Grammy Awards.