18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Geez, that's not correct either! Re-read the article. The Red Cross is taking care of the family, and that includes housing them for the time being.

Temporary yes, but what about long term? Allowing 18 people to live in a 900-1000 sq ft. apartment is pretty inhumane in this country.

Miulang

[damontucker]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Temporary yes, but what about long term? Allowing 18 people to live in a 900-1000 sq ft. apartment is pretty inhumane in this country.

Miulang

try tell that to some of the Katrina Victims w/out any house to go back to and living with families that they never even met before!

I'm sure they would be more than happy to be living 18 people in a 2brm... then 30,000 living in the Superdome.

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

That's not correct, Miulang. Maybe it's true where you live (Seattle) but not here. Most landlords use the standard rental/lease form provided by the Hawaii Association of Realtors which includes Item 5: No subleasing or additional tenants, other than those who signed the lease, without prior written authorization of the landlord.

So if it turns out that the fire was started in the unit because one of the kids living there was playing with matches, who loses out more? The tenants who probably don't have rental insurance to cover the cost of replacing their lost goods, or the landlord whose insurance will have to pay to rebuild the unit? Now that this family has been "discovered" to be living in conditions like that, will the State go after the landlord for not enforcing his own rental agreement?

BTW: The covenants for my condo say no more than 2 people per bedroom on a permanent basis and no more than 2 cats or dogs.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Manoa is right. (did i say that?)

Is it inhumane to let 18 people live in one apartment or would you give them homelessness as a choice?

Providing humanity with enough dwellings has become a bigger problem in direct relation to the number of restricitons and regulations we have placed upon the construction of dwellings. The "activist" mentality wanted the rules & regs the most. Now they are most upset by the homeless issue.

It's gotta be a weird twisting mix of belief systems that one must subscribe to in order to be both a liberal and an activist. Any self proclaimed liberal activist is likely to be awash in cognitive dissonance, making them easy targets in the "debate" game.

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Manoa is right. (did i say that?)

Is it inhumane to let 18 people live in one apartment or would you give them homelessness as a choice?

Providing humanity with enough dwellings has become a bigger problem in direct relation to the number of restricitons and regulations we have placed upon the construction of dwellings. The "activist" mentality wanted the rules & regs the most. Now they are most upset by the homeless issue.

It's gotta be a weird twisting mix of belief systems that one must subscribe to in order to be both a liberal and an activist. Any self proclaimed liberal activist is likely to be awash in cognitive dissonance, making them easy targets in the "debate" game.

I'm actually looking at it from a public health perspective more than a political perspective. People living in crowded conditions are more prone to infectious diseases like strep, mono and colds and flu. Of course homelessness is not a good alternative. But I also wonder if these families are immigrant families (and I'm not saying that they are) that perhaps they aren't aware of social services that might put them into less crowded living situations.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

(tip toes into the room with cheshire cat grin on face)

Okay Miulang, heres where you decide which side of the fence you are truly on.

Would you be in favor of relaxing rules & regulations as they pertain to development so that more dwellings might possibly be available at the lowest price ranges, or would you favor more government intervention into peoples lives in the form of shelters and handouts?

And now for a brief interlude.

A logical conundrum. Spock was going to be killed by the Klingons. They told him he could have one last statement. If he told a lie he would be stoned to death. If he told the truth he would stabbed to death. What do you think Spock said?

He said "I will be stoned to death".

Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it?

LOL....it's like watching people paint the floor starting from the doorway

[Paul]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

I actually have taken classes in urban planning. Another possible solution to the housing problem besides Timkona's aggresive growth idea is to change the building codes. The reason why houses cost so much to build is because of the building codes. Who makes these codes? The builders that's who and it's in there financial interest to keep them in place. Now I don't know if I believe in this myself but it is something that my professors actually said in class. They talked about Mexico and how there really isn't a homeless problem there because people can quickly build adobe structures to live in. Technically someone living in a tarpaper shack is not homeless.

[damontucker]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

I actually have taken classes in urban planning. Another possible solution to the housing problem besides Timkona's aggresive growth idea is to change the building codes. The reason why houses cost so much to build is because of the building codes. Who makes these codes? The builders that's who and it's in there financial interest to keep them in place. Now I don't know if I believe in this myself but it is something that my professors actually said in class. They talked about Mexico and how there really isn't a homeless problem there because people can quickly build adobe structures to live in. Technically someone living in a tarpaper shack is not homeless.

If that's the case...Then I guess all the people here in Hawaii living under tarps wouldn't be considered homeless then... according to Mexico officials.

I'm assuming that before there were 18... there were probably 8 or so... the other 10 probably moved in later on to "prevent" themselves from being homeless.

(And this is Hawaii... where it seems acceptable for 30 - 40 year olds to still be living with/Off of there parents.)

I asked a co-worker when she was going to get married and move out of her parents house... she said... "If I get married... I'm moving him into my parents house!"

And she makes more than me and could be on her own already!

[Tiger Beer]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

6 adults and 12 kids were in that 2-bedroom apartment.

I wish the article was even more detailed. Is that 3 couples with 4 kids each? Or an extended family?

Anyways.. interesting nontheless.

[helen]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

From the impression I got from the original article it was an single parent with 2 kids when the fire started. No idea about the others, but I suppose in the coming days this story might give out more details.

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Okay Miulang, heres where you decide which side of the fence you are truly on.

Would you be in favor of relaxing rules & regulations as they pertain to development so that more dwellings might possibly be available at the lowest price ranges, or would you favor more government intervention into peoples lives in the form of shelters and handouts?

I am in favor of responsible growth, one where the population remains relatively stable so you don't have to worry about housing being a scarce commodity, which is what is driving up the cost (microeconomics 101).

If Hawai'i was a sovereign nation (which of course it will never become again at the rate things are going) it would impose immigration limits. At some point, the kind of housing you promote will mean nada because the infrastructure will be unable to support any more people. I'm not talking roads, either. I'm talking basic services, like water, waste disposal, schools. Would you encourage development on ground tainted by poisons like chlordane or the weed killers used in sugar and pineapple agriculture in years past, before there was an awareness of the harm those poisons cause like they are planning to build in Kaneohe? As a developer, could you sleep well at night knowing that the houses you've built could also be killing off innocent people who won't know of their exposure to life threatening illnesses until years later?

There are some people in this world who really do need assistance from the government to live their lives for physical or mental reasons. For the ones who can be contributing members of society and just need a leg up, I see no harm in making them use sweat equity to rehab abandoned buildings or houses into liveable units. The State apparently has at least 3-400 units that are uninhabitable right now. Why not team up with a building trade program at a couple of community colleges and give people the skills they need to get good jobs in construction, while at the same time allowing them to regain some self pride by helping to "build" the homes that they live in?

There really should be no such thing as a "free lunch".

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

It is a widely held misconception more people move to Hawaii than are born here. Controlling population? Like China?

In Hawaii, housing is a scarce commodity not because of population pressures (demand side) but rather due to regulations, prohibitions, and social resistance to development (supply side).

It should be noted that the only markets where housing is scarce is at the lowest end of the development spectrum. Rich folks can afford plenty of houses in Hawaii.

I would encourage development only upon ground that has already been developed. That means bulldoze the old and build higher and higher. In this way, "new" infrastructure is not as much a problem.

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

It is a widely held misconception more people move to Hawaii than are born here. Controlling population? Like China?
.

It's not a misconception. There aren't as many people moving from the Mainland to Hawai'i as people would like to believe, but there are a lot of people from the developing world (Asia and now Latin America) who see Hawai'i as more ideal than moving to the mainland because of Hawai'i's temperate climate and supposed "aloha" culture.

Miulang

Some statistics for you, also this from a very recent census report on Hawai'i demographics:
"...Hawai'i had a natural population increase of 9,200 a year, plus net foreign migration of 5,572 people. During that period, the state's population increased from 1.21 million to 1.26 million...."

[timkona]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Well then, there you have it. I have a lot of conversations with folks who would swear that our housing problems come from somewhere else. (Immigration)

The people who live here and the people who are moving here are NOT competing for the same house.

Folks from elsewhere are mostly retirees looking for a place to die. They have $975,000 or more to spend on a gated community with a fireplace (in the tropics...lol), and a pool that is used exclusively for 6 days a year while the grandkids are in town. And mostly they live in their Arizona home cuz the tropics make it hard for Grandpa to breath.

Folks who live here need a dwelling that costs less than $220,000. Under the brutal reality of that scenario, their best economic bet is a 900 sf, 2 br, 1 ba condo on the 19th floor. A building, that would allow for that kind of economic, would have to be tall enough to spread the land/unit cost thin. And the densities within the building would have to be as tight as 250sf/unit for little studios, that would promote affordability, most especially for the young, single, crowd. A building of that size would be most functional with 1-3 layers of retail/business/warehouse/office, such that some of the buildings spaces would "lend" themselves toward the economy, rather than being just a big dormitory.

And the likelihood of owning a "piece of land" is scarce at best.

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

The people who live here and the people who are moving here are NOT competing for the same house. ...
Folks who live here need a dwelling that costs less than $220,000. Under the brutal reality of that scenario, their best economic bet is a 900 sf, 2 br, 1 ba condo on the 19th floor.

And the likelihood of owning a "piece of land" is scarce at best.

The immigrant population from overseas could very well be competing for the lower end housing. And they normally don't just bring themselves, but their extended families as well.

And how many occupants would you say it would be safe (healthwise) to allow to live in one of those 900 sf, 2 br 1 ba condos on the 19th floor? 4? 18? 36? Couldn't 18 people crammed into a 900 sf condo be considered living in "dorm like" conditions too?

Miulang