18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

[tutusue]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

The condo building where I own and live is considered affordable housing and is section 8 approved. It's only 4 stories. However, there are 425 units! The by-laws condone a max of 4 people per 1 bedroom unit. Those units are only 400 sq. ft...in essence, 1 person per 100 sq. ft. My immediate neighbors a decade ago packed 5 people in there...parents + 3 kids. And I mean 'packed'. I can't imagine living 2 to a unit! The neighbors were eventually evicted. I was sorry to see them go. They were so incredibly kind to me. Not to each other, tho'. Yikes!

Applying this "theory", the Waipahu apt. would need to be 1800 sq. ft. to give the occupants the same amount of 'room' as my unit. I doubt there are many 1800 sq. ft., 2 bedroom apartments in Waipahu. My guess is each of those occupants was living within their own 50 sq. ft. That beats the beach or a telephone booth but not by much.

[kaneohegirl]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

The trick to keeping those kinds of developments from becoming projects is to mix the uses. 1st floor - Big Retail 2,3,4 floor - office and retail....and then tiny studios, small 1 br, bigger 2 br, biggest 3 br, and penthouses.

EXACTLY!! when it is more than a place to crash its more about keeping it clean providing jobs, daycare, schools, parks, ect its then a community. there are places like this in japan. high rise affordable housing where you never need to leave you building unless you want to

[damontucker]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Heheheheh. Yes, Manoa, I know. I was one of the Titas who also kokua'd.

You wanna read some horror stories about what it's like living in one of those low income skyscrapers? Read these stories about Cabrini Green in Chicago. I drove past there a few times. Talk about depressing and dangerous. This is the history of Cabrini-Green, and some pictures before and after "redevelopment" into a mixed income neighborhood.

MWH would be considered paradise to former residents of Cabrini Green, and it's because of people like Aunty Lynn, there is still some hope for the residents of MWH.

The residences that you are talking...

If you ask one of them what the word "ohana" means... can anyone tell you?

If not... tell them to watch Lilo and stitch's original movie.

Here in Hawaii... the ohana value is very important... Many families have that crazy uncle on crack... that foolish cuz that always shows up drunk... etc...

however, no matter what in Hawaii... I have learned that the true "hawaii" families that practice and preach Ohana values and meaning... will almost always never turn their back on their own Ohana....

Thus creating 18 people in a 2brm apt...whether it be breaking the lease or not....

Sheesh... if you ask PZ... he lived with 4 adults in a dorm room about the size of a large walkin closet for at least a semester or two... and that's just a financial savings for them....

and hilo prices weren't even that expensive then...however... PZ being as smart as he was...managed to pull it off... (less yet... he had a RA living in the attatched unit I do believe...and technically if the RA would have "known" about the situation.... our own PZ and Kilihane might have been in a tight Hilo rental market...

People do whatever they can to get by these days...

I have neighbors w/ people off their lease.... I swear to god the house in front of me is being rented out on craigslist by the night by a roommate whom the other roommate is off fighting for america!!!

Tonights Manoa rant... sorry PZ and Kilihane... I know you have talked about living in UH Hilo's dorms before so I don't feel as though I'm letting anything illegal out!!!

Just trying to expand on the topic of tight and small living quarters and you 4 living in that small as room...is a perfect example!!!!

Manoa

[1stwahine]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Manoasurfer123, go change your word to something else.

Auntie Lynn

[Paul]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

If that's the case...Then I guess all the people here in Hawaii living under tarps wouldn't be considered homeless then... according to Mexico officials.

If they are living on their own land then they aren't homeless. In Puna on the big island there are actually lots of people living like this. They get a building permit so they can get temp. power but never build the house. They just keep on living in tents and shacks. This has a dual advantage of decreasing property values in neighboring areas.

I'm not saying there should be no building codes but they could be relaxed a little.

[timkona]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

I'm not saying there should be no building codes but they could be relaxed a little.

It would be good to 'undo' some of the myriad regulations that exist for development. 35 years of activism, with folks clamoring for this law or that protection, has resulted in a housing crisis on a nation wide scale. Mind you this crisis only exists at the lowest end of the economic spectrum, where margins are thin, and additional regs can have a crippling effect on prices. I said it once, and I'll say it again. It is the mindset of a certain generation in this country that has created the intransigence.

I bet most of the folks who are homeless never once went to a County meeting to demand that a developer jump through some hoop, or protect some species, or spend thousands on an archaelogical survey. These are the kinds of costs that price a dwelling out of the reach of the working class.

There are some who would say that the rules should be different for developments that have lower prices. But two-tiered laws are seldom legal.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

(tip toes into the room with cheshire cat grin on face)
Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it?

Whoof! Clean off your computer screen, Tim --- you're just a little too excited here.

[pzarquon]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Sheesh... if you ask PZ... he lived with 4 adults in a dorm room about the size of a large walkin closet for at least a semester or two... and that's just a financial savings for them.... Tonights Manoa rant... sorry PZ and Kilihane... I know you have talked about living in UH Hilo's dorms before so I don't feel as though I'm letting anything illegal out!!!

I have no idea why we're being cited in this thread, or how our arrangements at UH Hilo are even relevant. Sure we had two happy couples essentially occupying a single dorm room built for two, but the two "guests" were also paying for their own dormitory accommodations (they just weren't making much use of them), so obviously it wasn't a "financial" issue. Further, student housing is a wholly different animal from the open rental market. Dorms have different ameneties, living areas, management and maintenance arrangements... it's apples and oranges.

College kids cramming a heap of people into small places has a long and colorful history. They may have some expertise in living cheaply, but keep in mind that going to college in general implies access to resources than many people don't have.

Multigenerational households have been common in Hawaii for decades. Except 50 years ago, you had four families living on one property with "ohana zoning" and a couple of structures, or a really big house in Waipahu or something. Now "moving in with grandma" means squeezing into an apartment, and one that's less likely to be owned.

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

The residences that you are talking...

If you ask one of them what the word "ohana" means... can anyone tell you?

If not... tell them to watch Lilo and stitch's original movie.

Here in Hawaii... the ohana value is very important... Many families have that crazy uncle on crack... that foolish cuz that always shows up drunk... etc...

however, no matter what in Hawaii... I have learned that the true "hawaii" families that practice and preach Ohana values and meaning... will almost always never turn their back on their own Ohana....

Believe it or not, many of the former residents of Cabrini Green were extremely upset about having to be relocated because they HAD in fact formed communities within those scarred buildings. Those tight communities were created not because people were related by blood but because it was a question of survival. Now that that Cabrini Green area is being developed into the kind of place that Timkona advocates (mixed use, mixed income), guess what's happening to most of the Section 8 people? They are being forced to move further and further away from the area, and are being replaced by yuppie types because Cabrini Green happens to be in the Gold Coast of Chicago.

Lilo&Stitch is a cute fantasy. Even in Hawai'i, even where there is supposed to be ohana, SOME people are still being left behind.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

You say 'Mixed Income', then presume their is no place for the Sec 8 folk. Don't they qualify as the lowest end of "Mixed"?

What's it gonna be Miulang?

Ever heard the one about Spock?

[Miulang]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

You say 'Mixed Income', then presume their is no place for the Sec 8 folk. Don't they qualify as the lowest end of "Mixed"?

What's it gonna be Miulang?

Ever heard the one about Spock?

Under the terms of the CHA redevelopment plans for Cabrini Green, a number of Sec. 8 people were supposedly guaranteed placement in some of the units. Unfortunately, they also had to meet fairly stringent criteria, which meant that many of them with poor or no credit histories or criminal records, could not qualify for any of the new housing.

Tim, you really should go google "Cabrini Green" and look stuff up for yourself. Fascinating reading about the noble intentions of the Chicago Housing Authority.

Miulang

[kaneohegirl]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

Unfortunately, they also had to meet fairly stringent criteria, which meant that many of them with poor or no credit histories or criminal records, could not qualify for any of the new housing.

Miulang

now the poor credit part I kinda see I mean that shows they are flaky with their bills and would be a risk to paying the rent, but not the criminal record part...why subsidize their housing with our tax dollars? I have been on the poorest end of the spectrum I wouldnt expect anyone to hand out money or housing to a druggie or gang member. it just makes sense. while the perfect world would have no crime and no homelessness we dont live in a perfect world. and if you want the easy way we shouldnt give it to you.get off your ass work 2 jobs bust it out WORK like respectable ppl.

[lurkah]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

now the poor credit part I kinda see I mean that shows they are flaky with their bills and would be a risk to paying the rent, but not the criminal record part...why subsidize their housing with our tax dollars? I have been on the poorest end of the spectrum I wouldnt expect anyone to hand out money or housing to a druggie or gang member.

But what about the former druggie or gang member who spent his or her time in prison turning his or her life around and is now trying to do the right thing towards raising and supporting a family? Don't they deserve a chance at housing assistance too? And how do you distinguish between them and career criminals? Would they, for example, need to save a mother and child from a burning house in order to redeem themselves as being worthy again in the eyes of everyone else?

Criminal records per se don't show the whole person, and I think that using that criteria alone as a blanket reason for denial isn't right.

I wonder how many here remember Sammy Amalu.

[kaneohegirl]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

But what about the former druggie or gang member who spent his or her time in prison turning his or her life around and is now trying to do the right thing towards raising and supporting a family?



Criminal records per se don't show the whole person, and I think that using that criteria alone as a blanket reason for denial isn't right.

I admit that I generalized the druggie/gang member part to mean currently actively still on parole/probation (which are more likely to fall back into the same patterns of behavior).
I do think that the ones who learned their lesson and reformed and have given back to the community have steady full time jobs and are productive members of society should be given a second chance at a good life

[1stwahine]

Re: 18 people in a 2-bedroom apartment?!

I admit that I generalized the druggie/gang member part to mean currently actively still on parole/probation (which are more likely to fall back into the same patterns of behavior).
I do think that the ones who learned their lesson and reformed and have given back to the community have steady full time jobs and are productive members of society should be given a second chance at a good life

I was about to write a lengthy post to your odda comment. But now no need.

Mahalo for the clarification.

Auntie Lynn