Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

[matapule]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

I also bet I could take you on a tour of some of the quote-unquote "needy homeless" that your tax dollars support that would make your head spin.

No that wouldn't make my head spin. The $700B bailout to Wall Street fatcats makes my head spin, a "war" in the MidEast that costs $200B to $400B per year makes my head spin, insensitivity and self-centeredness makes my head spin.

But rather the drink-till-you drop, or just refuse to work, or hole-in-the-brain druggie types who your tax dollars are supporting.

Oh so we should turn those people out and let them die on the street! Great, that will certainly make your point. Is that solution going to make you feel better? If it does, you're living in the wrong country.

Alcohol, drugs, and even laziness are symptoms of deeper, complicated emotional and psychological problems. I want my tax dollars and personal contributions spent on trying to help those people with their problems rather than Wall Street types like those at AIG who get a bailout and the next weekend spend $400,000 of your tax dollars on a weekend retreat for the officers at the Ritz in Dana Point, CA replete with massages, golf, caviar, cocktails, and sumptuous dining. Yes, your tax dollar is going to support those functions. And you whine and complain because some wornout alcoholic doesn't meet YOUR criteria for assistance. Shame on you!

God gave us a brain and and body, and he expects us to use what he provided to the best possible. That includes a hard days work to support your family, or two jobs if needed. I've done that myself, so I know of what I speak.

You are fortunate god gave YOU a brain and a body and a psychological makeup to work hard and support your family. COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS, FOR GOD'S SAKE! God wasn't as generous to other people as it was to you. What are you going to say to god when it says, "Amati, I gave you more than I did to that lazy person in the shelter. I blessed you Amati more than others. Tell me Amati, what is the greater sin, laziness or having more than another and being selfish, uncaring, and judgemental?"

In Tonga, selfishness was the greatest sin and in the old ways and days was punishable by death. It was called "kai po" (eating at night). Tongans who ate at night with their fales closed rather than during the day, sharing with anyone who came along, were put to death. Even today, it is considered a severe breech of manners.

Come tour with me and see some of the loosers

That won't be necessary, I see "losers" everyday, some with a computer and the Internet and a job in Hawaii. Who is the bigger loser - the guy with a job paying a reasonable living and practicing "kai po" or some alcoholic, drug abuser, or wastrel who doesn't have the foggiest idea about how to get his life back together? You are lucky you don't have those problems, but if you did, I would want to help you too.

Pull out THOSE IN TRUE NEED and then see who is still left on your dollar! It is many.

So I guess you are saying you are the best judge of who is in need and who isn't. Judge, jury, and executioner all wrapped into one self righteous individual. Is this what makes America great?

Maybe we should just come up with some way of redistributing the country's money. That way, we can all underachieve but still end up with the same life style.

Ah yes, the Neo-Con mantra.....I've got mine and screw the rest of you! I challenge you to go live on the street for a week with no money in your pocket....and I hope you don't run into a person like yourself getting out of their car on their way to work, looking down their nose at you.

I give freely, both personally and through tax dollars, to social welfare programs. I do not give freely to Wall Street bailouts, wars to benefit corporations, and welfare for the rich.

And yes, Amati, I will give you a loan or a gift within my ability if you are in need. No strings attached. I don't care what your politics, religion, and ethnicity are. We are all ohana here. We are all here to help all of each other. How else can we justify our existence on Earth? I am liberal and proud of it.

[Peshkwe]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

Yanno...if some of you are wanting to donate to some grass roots type things, there's always Aunty Lynne's slipper fund and Kalona's Kau Kau Wagon. Those two can use anything thrown at em and you can be sure that what you do throw their way isn't wasted.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Matapule's messages

I think I'm in love.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

Alcohol, drugs, and even laziness are symptoms of deeper, complicated emotional and psychological problems. I want my tax dollars and personal contributions spent on trying to help those people with their problems rather than Wall Street types like those at AIG who get a bailout and the next weekend spend $400,000 of your tax dollars on a weekend retreat for the officers at the Ritz in Dana Point, CA replete with massages, golf, caviar, cocktails, and sumptuous dining. Yes, your tax dollar is going to support those functions. And you whine and complain because some wornout alcoholic doesn't meet YOUR criteria for assistance. Shame on you!

I don't know about you, but one value that I was taught early in life is that two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes, I likewise have a problem with companies on Wall Street getting bailout money and in turn, continue to operate in a "business as usual" mode with lavish functions and excessive executive bonuses. But all that doesn't justify able-bodied people on Main Street to likewise take advantage of govt. assistance programs when they are fully capable of holding down an honest fulltime job and supporting themselves and their families.

There are certainly people out there for whom circumstances dictate that they need help and assistance, whether it be on a temporary or permanent basis. I don't think anyone in this forum would argue against that. But let's not turn a blind eye to all the other folks who shamelessly accept govt. assistance and handouts as a way of life, when they are capable of standing on their own two feet. An able-bodied welfare recipient treating himself to a brand new Cadillac Escalade isn't any less disgusting than AIG fatcats treating themselves to a week-long retreat at a luxury resort/spa. Both scenarios are wrong, and reforms should be enacted to prevent such abuses of govt. assistance.

You are fortunate god gave YOU a brain and a body and a psychological makeup to work hard and support your family. COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS, FOR GOD'S SAKE! God wasn't as generous to other people as it was to you. What are you going to say to god when it says, "Amati, I gave you more than I did to that lazy person in the shelter. I blessed you Amati more than others. Tell me Amati, what is the greater sin, laziness or having more than another and being selfish, uncaring, and judgemental?"

Judgemental. A very ugly charge to make against another, especially since it is all too easy for the person making that charge to likewise be guilty, but not know it.

[Seeking Penance]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

aaaahhhhhh

hawaii threads is officially my home..........*sits back and relax*

this is the norm at every family outings and reunions since i can remember as a child....with me.....the youngest of 10....i was always the pitch fork in the background.....writing my notes....listening in on every adult debates....some memorable some weren't....when i came of age...i learned quickly that it isn't always easy running out as it was running in

debate after debate

i feel so much at home

[Amati]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

In Tonga, selfishness was the greatest sin and in the old ways and days was punishable by death. It was called "kai po" (eating at night). Tongans who ate at night with their fales closed rather than during the day, sharing with anyone who came along, were put to death. Even today, it is considered a severe breech of manners.

Wow, now I am afraid of you. I expressed irritation at someone feeling entitlement instead of their showing self responsibility, and you consider that view a sin worthy of death.

I think the halo you imagine perched on your head has fallen off.

[matapule]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

But all that doesn't justify able-bodied people on Main Street to likewise take advantage of govt. assistance programs when they are fully capable of holding down an honest fulltime job and supporting themselves and their families.

This statement shows that you simply don't understand the problem. My wife was a social worker for a number of years. Yes, she was scrupulous in doling out tax payers dollars because they were her dollars too. No one got any assistance from her that didn't meet the criteria mandated by law. It just didn't happen. There may be some cases that slip thorough the cracks, but not on her watch. You worry too much about those who don't qualify, they are in the very small minority.

I have a proposition for you. Apply to be an underpaid social worker with a college degree. Then you can weed out all those who don't qualify under Federal and State programs.

An able-bodied welfare recipient treating himself to a brand new Cadillac Escalade

Can you give me a specific example with all the facts to back up your statement, or are you just making it up because that's want you want to believe?

Both scenarios are wrong, and reforms should be enacted to prevent such abuses of govt. assistance.

More money is spent on welfare for Wall Street and big corporations and the wealthy than is spent on programs for the less fortunate who aren't qualified. Let's take care of the bigger abuse first. Then we will have the revenue to search out the occassional welfare abuser. Until then, I am willing to err on the side of being over generous than worrying about someone getting something for nothing from the welfare system.

Judgemental. A very ugly charge to make against another, especially since it is all too easy for the person making that charge to likewise be guilty, but not know it.

Of course I'm judgemental. That is what conscience is all about. The trick is to use good judgement as opposed to bad judgement. So are you saying that my judgement in caring for my extended ohana is somehow bad? I am also judgemental about people who throw trash out their car window, kill animals just for fun (if I kill it, I darn well eat it), smoke cigarettes in my presence, and a bunch of other stuff too. It's good to be judgemental......but show good judgement.

[timkona]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

For every minute that an underachiever spends in some form of "counseling", they would be much better served to spend those minutes in the back of a hot, greasy kitchen, washing dishes, or out in the hot, tropical sun digging up dirt.

Nobody ever said that "Counseling builds character." That phrase was reserved for hard work.

[matapule]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

Wow, now I am afraid of you. I expressed irritation at someone feeling entitlement instead of their showing self responsibility, and you consider that view a sin worthy of death.

Are you a speech writer for the McCain campaign?

I think the halo you imagine perched on your head has fallen off.

Dang, just when I thought I had everyone fooled!

[matapule]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

For every minute that an underachiever spends in some form of "counseling", they would be much better served to spend those minutes in the back of a hot, greasy kitchen, washing dishes, or out in the hot, tropical sun digging up dirt.

If you have a job to offer (mow your lawn?) let them know down at the social services offices. You, Tim, can put some of these "miscreants" to work! That is being proactive.

Nobody ever said that "Counseling builds character." That phrase was reserved for hard work.

Okay, Tim, step to plate and offer them a "hard work" job (oh, by the way, pay them the same that you would want to do that "hard work" job). It's fine to talk the talk, now it is time for you, Tim, to walk the walk.

[timkona]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

I mow my lawn for nothing. I will gladly pay the same. But since I'm a little more generous than that, I would pay $10 or $20 to see the back-40 quaffed nicely. Unfortunately, to give a job like that to social services, I would have to fill out some forms, for verification, and then get the mower certified, for safety, and then there's the insurance, the bond, the EIS, the red tape, more gummint oversight, public hearings, protest, activism, and pretty soon, a simple project like lawn mowing is out of reach of the poor underachieving person, because the amount of regulation drives the cost through the roof.


I figure a good dishwashing job pays about $8. Digging dirt in the hot sun, about $12.

[matapule]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

An able-bodied welfare recipient treating himself to a brand new Cadillac Escalade.

I just have to add, that in my opinion, anyone who drives an Escalade, of whatever income group, has severe psychological problems by definition. The welfare recipient who drives an Escalade has too low an I.Q. and is too stupid to hold down a job. Give him his welfare check!

[matapule]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

I mow my lawn for nothing. I will gladly pay the same. But since I'm a little more generous than that, I would pay $10 or $20 to see the back-40 quaffed nicely.

Great, I have 40 acres that I hereby am offering you $20 to mow for me! When will you be over? You are a cheapskate!

Unfortunately, to give a job like that to social services, I would have to fill out some forms, for verification, and then get the mower certified, for safety, and then there's the insurance, the bond, the EIS, the red tape, more gummint oversight, public hearings, protest, activism, and pretty soon, a simple project like lawn mowing is out of reach of the poor underachieving person, because the amount of regulation drives the cost through the roof.

Oh, so you have gone through the process? I'm getting my hipwaders out because your eyeballs, Tim, are turning brown.

I figure a good dishwashing job pays about $8. Digging dirt in the hot sun, about $12.

Okay, so you have one of these jobs to offer? Let's get people off of welfare and put them to work. Let me give you a clue, it takes tax dollars, your tax dollars, to do that.

In California, the State contracts to employ "special needs" adults to clean the roadside rest areas. And they are diligent and work hard and they get a minimum wage and GOD BLESS THEM. It makes me so proud to see my tax dollars being spent on this program, otherwise they would just be another welfare recipient. So Tim, if you don't want to spend your tax dollars on social welfare and would rather spend them on a Wall Street bailout, then fine, just give a social welfare recipient a job.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

This statement shows that you simply don't understand the problem.

Sez you.

My wife was a social worker for a number of years. Yes, she was scrupulous in doling out tax payers dollars because they were her dollars too. No one got any assistance from her that didn't meet the criteria mandated by law. It just didn't happen. There may be some cases that slip thorough the cracks, but not on her watch. You worry too much about those who don't qualify, they are in the very small minority.

Doesn't matter how widespread the problem of welfare abusers are. It does exist. Steps should be taken to correct and eliminate the abuse, whenever detected.

I have a proposition for you. Apply to be an underpaid social worker with a college degree. Then you can weed out all those who don't qualify under Federal and State programs.

Oh, so one needs to hold a degree in the field in order to hold an opinion on an obvious problem. I see.

So I trust that when you were spouting off and opposing any kind of govt. bailout for the meltdown on Wall Street, you spoke as someone who held an advanced degree in finance, accounting, or economics, right? If not, I have a proposition for you. Go back to college and earn of those aforementioned degrees. Then you can speak out as an authority on whether or not the govt. should be engaged in a bailout.

Matapule, this "you need a degree to understand the problem" argument is weak. If one person starts using it to silence other people on this board, then others can throw that same argument back in your face on other topics. It is an unproductive way to engage in open-minded discussion on a public forum like this.

Can you give me a specific example with all the facts to back up your statement, or are you just making it up because that's want you want to believe?

Facts? You want me to actually name the person on welfare who owns an Escalade? Obviously Matapule, you did not read the HT meta discussions here re: privacy for people who are not considered public figures. So in respecting this board's policy and in that person's privacy, I am not going to break those rules just to humor you.

I'll just say this. I am not making it up. (I wish I were, because it bugs the hell out of me whenever I see this person at my job.) This person is on welfare, does not have a job, and owns an '08 Escalade. If you don't want to believe, whatevas. But you're not going to come across as any credible voice on the matter of welfare if you're going to be in denial about the problem of welfare and public assistance abuse and the extent to which it exists.

More money is spent on welfare for Wall Street and big corporations and the wealthy than is spent on programs for the less fortunate who aren't qualified. Let's take care of the bigger abuse first. Then we will have the revenue to search out the occassional welfare abuser. Until then, I am willing to err on the side of being over generous than worrying about someone getting something for nothing from the welfare system.

Using your logic, then law enforcement should only go after the "bigger" thieves first. So should authorities neglect the complaints of older people who have been swindled out of their life savings, because there are other criminals who are still at-large after having stolen far largers sums in corporate embezzlement? Oh brother!

Here's what I think: fraud and abuse of govt. assistance should be combated at all levels, no matter how much money is involved in each instance. Each case should be investigated and prosecuted, as they are detected.

Of course I'm judgemental. That is what conscience is all about. The trick is to use good judgement as opposed to bad judgement.

And of course, your particular brand of judgement is "good," while everyone else who sees things differently from you have "bad" judgement. Must be nice to live in a world where everybody and everything revolves around you.

I just have to add, that in my opinion, anyone who drives an Escalade, of whatever income group, has severe psychological problems by definition. The welfare recipient who drives an Escalade has too low an I.Q. and is too stupid to hold down a job. Give him his welfare check.

WTG in showing just how objective you are on the matter.

[timkona]

Re: Entitlement vs Self Responsibility

I'm against the bailout. Lassez Faire and Caveat Emptor.

so you have gone through the process?
No. But the mere fact that there IS a process, for dang near everything, is part of the problem.

It's not 40 acres. It's really only about <1/4 acre.

Okay, so you have one of these jobs to offer? Let's get people off of welfare and put them to work. Let me give you a clue, it takes tax dollars, your tax dollars, to do that.

This is a very telling sentence. To believe that tax dollars are what put people to work is exactly wrong. So wrong. It is entreprenurial skill, and hard work, that puts more people to work. And when taxes are lower, employers can hire even more folks. And as a sidenote, minimum wage laws kill opportunity's for the least able among us.