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Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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  • #46
    Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Originally posted by helen View Post
    I don't understand why this is an issue. What difference would it make if they made the information public?
    It would force government to justify whether the ends justified the means. Namely, $40 million in harbor improvements that state taxpayers may now end up paying for because the Superferry may no longer be bound by their contract. Of course, the admission would have made the greatest impact when the Superferry first made plans to enter the Hawai‘i market. Now, it’s almost a moot point. Let me ask you this: if the majority of Hawai‘i residents knew back then, that this was the real agenda of Superferry backers:
    Hawai‘i Superferry (HSF)–chaired by former Navy Secretary and 9/11 Commission member John F. Lehman–may also be using Hawaiian waters to demonstrate the performance of its Austal USA catamaran, the Alakai, and prove its efficacy for military purposes.

    At stake are U.S. defense contracts potentially worth billions, and possible sales to foreign navies, according to a defense industry consultant in San Diego who asked not to be named. The Superferry is being tested in Hawai‘i to qualify the design for military contracts and also for sale to the navies of India and Indonesia, the consultant said.
    ...do you think this sentiment would have been limited only to Kaua‘i and Maui? I think not.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

      Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
      It would force government to justify whether the ends justified the means. Namely, $40 million in harbor improvements that state taxpayers may now end up paying for because the Superferry may no longer be bound by their contract. Of course, the admission would have made the greatest impact when the Superferry first made plans to enter the Hawai‘i market. Now, it’s almost a moot point. Let me ask you this: if the majority of Hawai‘i residents knew back then, that this was the real agenda of Superferry backers:
      That's heavy on speculation though. Using the SF as a commercial vessel to mask the "true" intention of serving as a military transport is really heavy on conspiracy. The military already has demo'ed twin hulls in Japan and other parts of the world. Maybe the SF wanted to do side business as a military transport but what's really wrong with that? Hawaiian Air flew soldiers on charter flights for the first Gulf War. No one raised stink about that. Possible contamination from depleted uranium rounds? Check out how many nuclear subs are homeported at Pearl. Being on the far tip of the Big Island ain't gonna do that much better if one of those subs blew up. No one making a fuss.

      There might be a potential loophole in the court ruling though. The ruling was based on the interpretation that Act 2 is unconstitutional because it only benefited a sole entity. The court said 21 months won't give enough time for any other entity. So what if Act 2 was revised as Act 2.5 with a 100 months in place? Then other entities can use Act 2.5 if they wanted, thereby making it constitutional?

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

        Somehow to me this whole Superferry mess reeks of a get rich quick and leave scheme as opposed to some military testing conspiracy.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
          Maybe the SF wanted to do side business as a military transport
          I think it's unlikely that they would consider military contracts as a "side" business, when said contracts would make them much more kala than any public-transport venture.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

            Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
            I think it's unlikely that they would consider military contracts as a "side" business, when said contracts would make them much more kala than any public-transport venture.
            Again, this would fall under the realm of speculation, your opinion vs mine. But we do have precedence such as HA transporting military. Clearly, it's a side business. Also, the military already has it's own transport and logistics. Contracting such as when the guard sent equipment over to Maui works out very well.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

              Originally posted by Jewlipino View Post
              Yeesh. Then change the law. Until then the law stands and that's how we operate.
              Executive Order 9066 was a law, too. Didn't make it right.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                The ultimate irony would be to see the vessel painted grey and become a military transport plying the same waters.
                Why is that ironic?! More than likely, that was their intention all along.
                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                Using the SF as a commercial vessel to mask the "true" intention of serving as a military transport is really heavy on conspiracy. The military already has demo'ed twin hulls in Japan
                And if you had clicked the link in post #15 of this thread, you would already know the vessel demo’ed in Japan (Okinawa, to be exact), was the WestPac Express — built by the same company that built the Superferry! DUH!!!

                Are you even paying attention, or are you a surrogate working for Lehman and Co. posting your apologist propaganda to deliberately mislead HT members? I’ve posted links in every post that back up my claims, and which others have thanked me for. If you have documents — government or corporate — that disprove them, then in the words of Frankie’s Market, dazzle us with your inside information, Deep Throat!

                We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                USA TODAY, page 2A
                11 March 1993

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                  Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                  Executive Order 9066 was a law, too. Didn't make it right.
                  Welllllll not really.... Executive Orders are not laws anymore than a Bush the 2nd signing statement is a line-item veto (also unconstitutional :P ). Let's review the separation of powers:

                  Legislative: Formulates and passes laws and budget subject to the approval of the Executive

                  Executive: Approves or disapproves laws passed by the Legislative, and executes said laws. Now under recent executives such as Lingle and Bush the 2nd the "executes" part has been interpreted broadly to mean they can pick and choose as to what parts they implement. Contrary to some opinions this was not the intent of the Founders, or for that matter the delegates at the last ConCon here in HI. The Executive is bound by the law and bound to enforce it... it just matters whether or not anyone is holding them to it.

                  Judiciary: Serves as the final arbiter as to the constitutional-ness of any laws or actions by the Legislative or Executive branches.

                  Now to return to the reference above. Executive Order 9066 stands on dubious legal footing, however the powers of a president in time of war are fluid and when suspect actions are taken it is incumbent on the electorate and their representatives to act. Lack of action should not be seen as a legitimization of said actions, as it doesn't change their nature, just the response. SO Gov. Lingle did something illegal, and is now doing what she usually does when she gets caught red-handed and firmly denies having done anything illegal. Does that make it legal? I think not. Just once I wish we could get an apology from her for wasting state resources and getting us into this debacle.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                    Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                    Why is that ironic?! More than likely, that was their intention all along.
                    And if you had clicked the link in post #15 of this thread, you would already know the vessel demo’ed in Japan (Okinawa, to be exact), was the WestPac Express — built by the same company that built the Superferry! DUH!!!

                    Are you even paying attention, or are you a surrogate working for Lehman and Co. posting your apologist propaganda to deliberately mislead HT members? I’ve posted links in every post that back up my claims, and which others have thanked me for. If you have documents — government or corporate — that disprove them, then in the words of Frankie’s Market, dazzle us with your inside information, Deep Throat!
                    Ok, first of all, calm down. In the same paragraph you are stating you back your statements with links, you go off accusing me of "apologist propaganda" or suggesting I work for Lehman without a shred of evidence.

                    As you've already shown, the JHSV concept was already demo'ed with the Westpac Express in Japan. There is no need to re-demo here in Hawaii. If the military wanted a dedicated JHSV transport in Hawaii, they don't need this elaborate scheme. Twin hull catamarans have both civilian and military practical use due to it's flexibility. It's really not far fetch at all to have a civilian transport conduct side business with the military to beef up the financial bottom line. I've already mentioned for X number of times Hawaiian Airlines has demonstrated this before. Helen has provided examples of civilian craft that can/was applied to military use. Given the thin profit margins and anti-business climate of Hawaii, a smart business would diversify it's revenue sources.

                    I say it's ironic because ferry opponents made the military conspiracy a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your link only indicated how the second vessel was given additional features and equipment to facilitate use by the military. Considering the rocky start with the first ship, if you were tasked with a multi-million project, are you gonna seriously tell me you're not going to devise plan B? Now that ferry opponents seem to have killed commercial service, they've pushed them to plan B. So that's why it's ironic. I don't have insider info to dazzle you, just common sense.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                      Originally posted by mel View Post
                      Every year Republicans have led the charge to change some of our restrictive laws and ease the tax burden.
                      Which is precisely what got us into this current economic clusterf---. But in fairness a good chunk of Democrats in office bought into the same arguments.
                      Originally posted by mel View Post
                      And every year Democrats ignore those bills that do so and in fact introduce more bills and pass more laws that further restrict business and impose higher taxes!
                      That's oversimplifying the issue, produce examples and I will refute it. Furthermore does this refer to Democrats nationwide or just Democrats here in Hawaii?
                      Originally posted by mel View Post
                      BTW, there is nothing wrong with military applications applied to civilian ships as long as the military pays the firm supplying the ship. And now for you myopic Superferry opponents, the possibility is there that Hawaii Superferry could sell both ships to the military for 100% use all of the time by the military.
                      I totally agree. I'm not opposed to it, I wasn't even against the UH UARC. Most of the amazing tech in history comes from military applications first. I'd like to restate, Mel, that I am not a HSF opponent so much as someone who doesn't like our hard-won environmental laws given the brush off. As I said before I like the concept of the HSF, but I find the company's conduct to be unethical and disrespectful.

                      Originally posted by mel View Post
                      I love our Military. God Bless America. Land of the free. Home of the Brave.
                      Don't try to steal a patriotism march on me. Stick to the topic and try not to demonize people who opposed the HSF for reasons that are just as legitimate as your support.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                        Originally posted by mel View Post
                        And now for you myopic Superferry opponents,
                        Well this is political posturing at its worst.

                        Jewlipino and Leo can speak for themselves if I'm wrong, but I don't think they are opponents of the Superferry. Neither am I. I just want the SF and the Lingle administration to follow the law.

                        Oh, it's too much trouble to follow the law??? Let the governor and legislature run amok even when laws they pass and enforce are flawed and unconstitutional? Yup, to hell with the balance of power!!! Who needs it?

                        Maybe you've heard the old adage about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. History has proven that out, time and time again.

                        And you call the folks who disagree with you "myopic?"

                        A very wise man once said, "First remove the rafter from your own eye."

                        Also folks, spare me any further lectures about people losing their jobs. First of all, I (and others on HT) have gone down that path before and survived. So I know how it feels to be unemployed. Believe it or not, it ain't the end of the world. So there's no need for this kind of personal criticism when it comes to discussing our different POVs about the SF debacle.

                        Looking at the bigger picture,.... if the top (the only?) priority when it comes to the legislation of law is to promote jobs over any and all other concerns, you may one day end up living in a future Hawaii you will not like.

                        Think about it: if jobs were all that mattered, then the Kaka'ako redevelopment proposal should go through full-steam ahead. To hell with those of you who are Kewalo Basin park users and surfers. Let's build a massive concrete jungle over there because it will CREATE JOBS. And to hell with anyone who values open space. Let's make this project as thick and dense as we can, because that will CREATE MORE JOBS.

                        That's all that matters, right?
                        Last edited by Frankie's Market; March 18, 2009, 01:11 PM.
                        This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                          Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                          Also folks, spare me any further lectures about people losing their jobs. First of all, I (and others on HT) have gone down that path before and survived. So I know how it feels to be unemployed. Believe it or not, it ain't the end of the world.
                          Disagree. And that is a very callous statement. I'm especially upset that over 200 new people are now looking for jobs. Add that to the other thousands of people looking for jobs and with every company that pulls out of Hawaii, there are less jobs available to that growing pool of people needing a job. All of the unemployed who are seeking work exponentially recieve less chances at finding a job because their odds at it are continually decreased by the constant influx of newer unemployed people. How long before we see laid off execs serving us chili at Zippys. Even sadder, that they would have had to compete for that minimum wage counter position with hundreds of other desperate laid off former professionals. Sure, most of them will survive and eventually make it through these tough times, but at what cost, and what about those who don't. Have a heart!
                          ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                            Check out how many nuclear subs are homeported at Pearl. Being on the far tip of the Big Island ain't gonna do that much better if one of those subs blew up. No one making a fuss.
                            The physics of a pressurized water reactor and the shielding of the reactor compartment make that remotely unlikely.

                            You wanna worry about submarine hazards, you should be more concerned about the other end where the missiles & torpedoes are handled. Or the next portcall by an OHIO-class ballistic missile submarine. Or hydrogen/chlorine leaks around the emergency storage battery. Or the hazards of loading oxygen. Or all the fuel tanks around the base. Or the topside sentries handling live ammunition for their security weapons.
                            Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
                            Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
                            We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
                            Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                              Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                              Disagree. And that is a very callous statement. I'm especially upset that over 200 new people are now looking for jobs. Add that to the other thousands of people looking for jobs and with every company that pulls out of Hawaii, there are less jobs available to that growing pool of people needing a job. All of the unemployed who are seeking work exponentially recieve less chances at finding a job because their odds at it are continually decreased by the constant influx of newer unemployed people. How long before we see laid off execs serving us chili at Zippys. Even sadder, that they would have had to compete for that minimum wage counter position with hundreds of other desperate laid off former professionals. Sure, most of them will survive and eventually make it through these tough times, but at what cost, and what about those who don't. Have a heart!
                              Not to mention that's 200 people less putting into the system via taxes on paychecks that support the unemployment safety net.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                                Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                                Disagree. And that is a very callous statement. I'm especially upset that over 200 new people are now looking for jobs.
                                More finger-wagging and lecturing from the peanut gallery.

                                But no answers to any of the concerns I brought up about the long-term consequences of formulating piecemeal legislation purely in the interest of job creation, to the detriment of every other consideration.

                                Bend and bypass established laws and procedures to keep 200 SF jobs afloat today. All right. But where does it stop? Do we allow any and all parts of this island to be covered under concrete and asphalt for the sake of creating jobs? Do we commercialize every square foot of our precious parks and beaches for the sake of creating jobs?

                                Under this kind of short-sighted thinking, Hawaii would be ruined within a generation.

                                Think I'm exaggerating?

                                I wonder how many people who are either under the age of 30 or recently arrived to this state realize how different Hawaii would be today if commericial and big-business interests had their way on everything? To pick just one example: how many of y'all enjoy Magic Island and spent the day there with your family to picnic, play, and relax? How would of you like it if it suddenly wasn't made available for you to use? I got news for you. That nearly happened in the early 1970s. If it wasn't the effort of some activists who were concerned about maintaining open space and providing recreation for the public, a highrise hotel resort complex would be sitting on that land today.

                                But it seems like too many people today don't appreciate the hard work of those activists and community leaders who spoke out loudly whenever developers and politicians tried to circumvent the laws, planning process, and the EIS. They take for granted that the open space and the scenic beauty they enjoy have always been there and are blissfully unaware of the effort that it took to preserve those resources so that it could be passed on to the next generation.
                                Last edited by Frankie's Market; March 18, 2009, 04:19 PM.
                                This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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