How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I don't dispute that there is dishonesty from both sides. I don't dispute the methods of dishonesty and misleading information.

I ask you once again, as clearly as I can: by what factual information (not personal anecdote) can you defend your claim of more dishonesty coming from one side than from the other?

OK, this is what I mean by dishonesty in the anti-DP faction.

Okay, I can't be any clearer, so I'm giving up on trying to get my point across to you. I'm realizing that you probably WANT to misunderstand. That's unfortunate.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Did you do that????? If you did, in any war with our country involved, then I would consider you a traitor to our country.

Neither I nor anyone else needs to justify their actions to you. People were drafted into the war in VietNam, they weren't given a choice. Kerry served his country honorably, was wounded, and through his experience came to call the "war" in VietNam for what it truly was, a bogus scam by politicians in the US. I honor Kerry and those who protested that conflict and those who protest the US intervention in the Middle East today (yes, I parade in the street) for being forthright and people of conscience. Consider me a traitor.

Would you have volunteered to serve in VietNam had you not been drafted? Most draftees would not have volunteered. Most young people today do not volunteer to serve in the military. Recruitment numbers are way down. Service in VietNam is not a de facto recognition of patriotism. Service in VietNam only means that you had to go, like it or not. People like Cheney are the true traitors, not Kerry. If Kerry were a TeaBagger like Cheney, you think differently about him.

I honor people who volunteer to serve the USA whether it be the military (in a just cause), Peace Corps, VISTA, or grass roots volunteerism like the Slippah Project. Let's see, that's what Obama did. I do not call McCain a traitor. I honor his service. I do call him gullible for serving in VietNam and continuing to support US military expansionism. How many people (men and women) under 50 on HT have volunteered to serve their country in some capacity? I believe that community service and/or service to country should be required of all people out of high school or college for a minimum of two years. But then that is what Progressives have been talking about for years and because it is a Progressive idea then it must be no good.

The biggest threat to the US is people who define right and wrong through their own narrow view and take it one step further, calling those who don't fit that personal view of the world unpatriotic and traitor. In that case, I am proud to be a traitor.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

OK, this is what I mean by dishonesty in the anti-DP faction. Looking at this site: http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42
and: http://www.beinformedjournal.com/bei...llions-of.html

It looks obvious that the DP costs more than LWOP, but let's look deeper.

First of all, 90% of all convictions for all crimes are achieved by plea bargain which costs very little, and have minimal appeals. MANY DP eligible cases are settled by plea bargain so the defendant can avoid a death sentence, and therefore, capital punishment actually saves money.

HOWEVER, where does the plea bargain go, as far as this statistic??? If you said "The non-DP trial" you are partially correct, but isn't it the DP that actually saves you that money?

Now, I don't know how they came up with the figure of $90,000 per inmate per year to incarcerate a prisoner on Death Row, MORE than incarcerating a prisoner serving LWOP. Please think about it? Do we feed those on Death Row better??? Do we give these dangerous prisoners extra guarding? Or how about better prison cells? What exactly costs $90,000 more???? I don't even have a guess for that one. Perhaps they are making an apples to oranges comparison by adding the trial costs of the DP cases?

One thing to consider, is if a DP state takes away death as a punishment, several things will eventually happen. Among them are:

1. A plea bargain for the most heinous murder will have to offer the murderer a sentence less than the most severe, which is LWOP.
2. A murderer has nothing to lose by going to trial if he faces 20 years or more in prison compared to LWOP. The reason is they do not look that far ahead. 20 years is a lifetime to any convicted felon.
3. Those working with the courts system will not take a pay cut if capital punishment is abolished. They will simply raise the price of their services for the non-DP trials.

This is the type of "research" done by Duke University, on the costs of capital punishment. Is it honest? Well, it is not exactly dishonest in some cases, but the comparisons are not correct. Being incorrect is being dishonest to me.

Again, I am not singling anyone in this forum out, as while you might believe the things written about costs, it isn't anyone here that is doing this type of research.
Nobu

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Nobu, my friend, it is clear that this is one area where we will likely remain in disagreement. As scrivener wisely noted, this is one of those areas that are so closely tied in with personal values and emotions that there's unlikely to be conversion. I just hope you can understand why some of us here feel that you confuse your own opinion (and opinion-biased research) for fact or truth. As in this statement:

On the conviction of Moussaoui, I would say that his indictment was directly connected with the 9-11 attacks...

I suspect you are wise enough to know that there are often several versions of "truth" - you don't appear to be a person who thinks only in terms of black or white.

As far as the bogus claims by the anti DP faction, you will find that they do it in a very dishonest way...This is not to say that the people here are dishonest. What I am saying is many people here are believing the dishonest claims made by the anti DP faction.

As they are on the pro DP side. But you are continually sidestepping my point. You have claimed twice in this thread that there is more dishonesty coming from one side than from the other. I don't dispute that there is dishonesty from both sides. I don't dispute the methods of dishonesty and misleading information.

I ask you once again, as clearly as I can: by what factual information (not personal anecdote) can you defend your claim of more dishonesty coming from one side than from the other?

If you again avoid answering this direct question, I think we can safely assume that you are unable to find proof to back such a claim. Therefore, it stands to reason that many of your supposed "facts" are on equally shaky ground.

Hi Kalalau,
The choices for President against GW Bush were not all that great. If you voted for a Third Party Candidate, you would be throwing away you vote, so the election in 2000, we had Gore against Bush. As I posted before, I did vote for Gore, but I was really glad that we had Bush as our President after the 9-11 attack, because although I felt Bush didn't do enough in retaliation, Gore would have done less.

In 2004, the opposition was John Kerry. I know more or less, your opinion on the Vietnam War, but upon entering our military, we do take an oath to protect our country against all enemies, domestic and foriegn. Kerry was among our domestic enemies during the Vietnam War. Also, you might notice, the discrepancy in Kerries DD214, where his "honorable Discharge" was given to him way past his enlistment? I believe that is because he had a less than honorable discharge before that.

Now, President Obama? I say let's give him a chance to show his stuff. He might be a great president, and he might not. So far, I don't see either, but I think he was a far better choice than his opposition of McCain and Palin.

As I posted earlier, I am not a democrat or a republican. I vote for whom I think will do the job better.
Nobu

Hi Leo,
On the conviction of Moussaoui, I would say that his indictment was directly connected with the 9-11 attacks, and had it not been for those attacks, Moussaoui would not have been convicted of anything.

As far as the bogus claims by the anti DP faction, you will find that they do it in a very dishonest way. For instance, cost. The research done by Duke University, NC, will show that the DP costs about 3 times more than LWOP. Again, if you can get the math on the subject, I will show you where they made apples and oranges comparisons. The bogus claims go all the way up the Retired Supreme Court Justices, as in Gerald Kogan. His impressive speech against capital punishment looks convincing, but when you break down his claims with facts and actual numbers, and how he got them, you will see that even a Supreme Court Justice can be dishonest.

This is not to say that the people here are dishonest. What I am saying is many people here are believing the dishonest claims made by the anti DP faction.
Nobu

Then you consider me a traitor. You are a real piece of work. Your own words condemn you.

Hi Mataple,
I really don't know what you mean by that, but if you enlisted in our military for 6 years during the Vietnam War, and actively protested the war before those 6 years were up, then you would also be a traitor, because that is what Kerry did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam...gainst_the_War

I enlisted in the US Army for 3 years, and went to Vietnam in a non-combat position. Although my enlistment was for just 3 years, my military obligation was a total of 6 years with three of those years being inactive. I would never actively protest against that war during my 3 years of inactive service, and anyone who did, is a traitor to this country to me. Did you do that????? If you did, in any war with our country involved, then I would consider you a traitor to our country, because of the oath you took while entering our military, which can be found at:

<http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm> .
Nobu

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Hi Leo,
I posted this url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui
According to Wikipedia, Moussaoui was convicted of conspiracy in the 9-11 attacks.

ALL of the material I quoted in post 170 in this thread came from the very same Wikipedia article you submitted. As I noted earlier, you tend to be selective in what you choose to accept as "fact" - only the material that supports your position, while denying any accuracy of anything else, even from the same source material.

Of course, there are some statements that are made by the pro DP side that is also not true, but far less than the anti DP faction.

Once again, you claim that the "anti DP faction" makes more false statements than the "pro DP side." Yes, both sides are likely to spin information to bolster their own cases, but to protest that one side falsifies information more than the other? You have submitted nothing to prove your claim, nor can you do so --- because it is your opinion, not fact. This is a difference matapule has being trying to get you to understand.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Back to Vietnam for a bit. Like most Americans in the early '60's I was pro war. Gradually facts begin to emerge, I was wavering in support for the war when the Battle For Hill 8?? happened. That was sold as the decisive battle of the war, we had to either take or hold (sorry I forget which) Hill 8 something something, everything depended on it, the whole outcome of the war, and of course if we lost the war the Communists would be marching in from Ciudad Juarez in a few years. What a battle it was! The carnage! And at last we achieved our objective, we took Hill 8??. And held it for a week. Not so important after all the authorities told Americans. Just like in "1984", now the enemy is _________. And we were supposed to believe that. It was apparent that the people running the war 1) didn't have the any idea what they were doing and 2) didn't give a damn how many guys exactly like me they slaughtered. At that point the war had proved itself a mistake to me, there's never been any evidence otherwise. The collapse of Communism in Russia in 1991 undeniably confirmed that the Domino Theory the war was sold on was bs.

Cheney got something like 5 student deferments. Asked about it, he said he "had better things to do" than serve. No problem with Cheney, he is a billionaire. He was fine having other kids go die in his place. No problem at all with Cheney.

Yet Kerry. A purple heart. Oh yes, Republicans wandering around their 2004 convention wearing cute little purple bandaids, mocking his wounds suffered in the service of this country. Rich old ladies who were never called on to put up with even a day of basic training, belittling a wounded veteran. Great spectacle. Real patriotism. I think Kerry did than one tour in Vietnam, but might be mistaken about that. Kerry's mistake was in trying to end a mistake. First of all, you should never see a mistake. Accept everything. And even if you recognize a mistake, you must never do anything to correct it. Keep smoking. Keep driving drunk. Only good can come from repeating mistakes, or why care about consequences? We should still be in Vietnam. Right? Lets go back and finish the job right. Why or why not? Lets send the swiftboat veterans for truth right now since they think the war was so wonderful.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Also, I could not vote for Kerry in 2004, because he was a traitor in my opinion

Then you consider me a traitor. You are a real piece of work. Your own words condemn you.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Voting for bush was like being on a jury that lets a mass murderer go. A bit different but the same result. Granted that the million murdered Iraqis don't count, but the 4,200 dead American military should. Thats almost twice the number Al Qaeda murdered in New York, we have no problem recognizing that as a crime, do we? So much about bush...I think one of the worst things ever was letting the Walter Reed military hospital deteriorate to the point that returning wounded soldiers were lying in their own excrement there. They had to even pay for their own meals. It was so much more important to give tax breaks to billionaires. Even accepting that Kerry denouncing the pointless Vietnam war that pointlessly killed 58000 of our soldiers might have been disloyal, I do think that having our wounded soldiers lie in their own excrement in what had been one of the best hospitals in the whole world (Eisenhower was treated for his heart attacks there) just so already obscenely wealthy Texas oil tycoons could save on their taxes waaaaay trumps anything disloyal about Kerry. Imagine it happening to you, which would you chose--lying in your own excrement or having someone denounce a war? And you do need to recognize mistakes, you do need to correct them. The so called swiftboat veterans for truth who lied against Kerry never even served with him, they were just a bunch of washed up bar flies. But hey, the country paid the price for its stupidity and evil in voting for bush, it is going out of business. Enjoy the show, and congratulations to everybody who made it possible.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I thought he gave inspectors free range. After all, why not? He didn't have any wmds at that time so why would he have restricted them? Theres testimony on this from some of the inspectors themselves. As to the Downing St. Memo, if the intelligence had said what bush wanted it to, he wouldn't have had any reason to want to "fix" it, like if your radiator isn't leaking you don't take it in for repairs. No, bush was a truly evil man, the kind of personality that is just fine with blowing away a million people, no problem at all. We have to accept that our system failed miserably in allowing such an incompetent, evil man to advance into the leadership. I feel comfortable having no innocent blood on my hands, I am free of guilt, I never voted for the murderer, but the people who made the murders possible, inevitable, by voting for bush need to accept their sin and beg God for forgiveness, and promise to never be taken in again by false piety. "Blessed Be The Peacemakers", the English language doesn't get any clearer. The Lord wasn't breaking in jokes for a night club act when He said that.

Good question. If Iraq didn't have anything to hide, why make certain places off limits to the UN inspectors? It was a violation of the treaty which Iraq agreed to in order to stop the Desert Storm War.

The fact that they banned the inspectors from certain areas is suspicious at the very least. The first few times, they banned the inspectors, then later opened up the place for the inspectors later. Probably after moving whatever they had to hide.

Upon the invasion, Iraq used SCUD missiles which are offensive weapons. They were not supposed to have them because of the Desert Storm Treaty. Also, they flew their aircrafts to Iran to avoid an air confrontation with the superior American fighter aircrafts.

I am glad we had Bush for our president after the 9-11 attacks, because although Bush really didn't do enough, in my opinion, Gore would have done less.

Also, I could not vote for Kerry in 2004, because he was a traitor in my opinion.
Nobu

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the court's own summation:
Thus, the charged conspiracies were not agreements to carry out the 9/11 attacks specifically; the 9/11 attacks were overt acts taken after Moussaoui’s arrest...

As matapule has noted, your own opinions in this matter continue to color your perspective of "facts," and lead you to be selective in what you consider and what you reject (then again, to whom in this discussion does that description not apply?) But it does show that all your supposed research is called into question as failing to be objective.

And you still have not addressed my earlier question: by what proof can you claim that the "anti-DP" side is doing more of a "snow job" than the "pro-DP" side?

Hi Leo,
I posted this url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui
According to Wikipedia, Moussaoui was convicted of conspiracy in the 9-11 attacks.

On the proof, it is right in front of you. You look at the anti DP claims, and you can see what is untrue. For instance:

1. LWOP costs more than death.
2. The DP does not deter.
3. You cannot prove in court, a wrongful execution.
4. More than 100 has been exonerated from Death Row because of proven innocence. Actually, there are some, who have been exonerated from Death Row because of proven innocence, but nowhere near 100. Among the 112 who have been exonerated, some were granted a new trial, and key evidences has been lost, or key witnesses may have died or recanted.

Recently, someone posted a case, where there was an executionm where it is claimed that the executed was innocent.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/05...r-case/?hpt=T2

I researched this case over the past few days. While Willingham might have been innocent, given the evidence, I would have to say we were not at the trial, and we must remember, he was found guilty by a jury, who was given the evidence and all of the testimony. At best, if given a new trial, he might have gotten an acquittal, but he also was likely to come up with another guilty verdict. It was a fire, so much of the evidence was burnt, but being a family man, if I woke up with my house burning, the first thing I would try to do is save the members of my family with total disregard for myself. Willingham did not. He saved himself only.

Of course, there are some statements that are made by the pro DP side that is also not true, but far less than the anti DP faction.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I thought he gave inspectors free range. After all, why not? He didn't have any wmds at that time so why would he have restricted them? Theres testimony on this from some of the inspectors themselves. As to the Downing St. Memo, if the intelligence had said what bush wanted it to, he wouldn't have had any reason to want to "fix" it, like if your radiator isn't leaking you don't take it in for repairs. No, bush was a truly evil man, the kind of personality that is just fine with blowing away a million people, no problem at all. We have to accept that our system failed miserably in allowing such an incompetent, evil man to advance into the leadership. I feel comfortable having no innocent blood on my hands, I am free of guilt, I never voted for the murderer, but the people who made the murders possible, inevitable, by voting for bush need to accept their sin and beg God for forgiveness, and promise to never be taken in again by false piety. "Blessed Be The Peacemakers", the English language doesn't get any clearer. The Lord wasn't breaking in jokes for a night club act when He said that.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The Downing Street memo proves bush knew there were no wmds, if there had been he would have had no reason to try to rig the intelligence reports. bush was a bad man. No country is immune from getting evil leadership. Everyone who voted for bush has innocent blood on their hands. People who believe in judgment in the afterlife must admit their sin and beg God's forgiveness for their sin.

Hi Kalalau,
The Downing Street memo doesn't really prove anything. Bush claims he went by the intelligence reports as far as the WMD in Iraq, and it is believeable, because Iraq did have poison gas at one time, and that can be proven, because Saddam used it against the Kurds. Because we knew that Saddam at least once before, had forms of WMD, and there is no records of him destroying them, it is highly possible that he had more of it, and we just could not find them.

One thing for sure, is Saddam did restrict the UN inspectors from going into some places that were suspected. This would indicate that he was trying to hide something, and this was a direct violation of the Desert Storm Treaty that Iraq agreed to.
Nobu

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It's certainly looking like there's confusion in what murder, homicide, rules of engagement, warfare and other forms of killing are. Seeing this from tenured posters is seriously disappointing. To call all forms of killing a "murder" is legally and technically incorrect. Human-on-human killing is known as homicide. Not all forms of homicide are considered illegal. If you want to test that theory, break into my house.

Calling soldiers murderers is as ridiculous as calling police officers murderers. With some of the rationalization (I dare not call it logic) seen here, people who contribute to certain (legal) acts are being called murderers. Well, people who neglect to stop or prevent it should be murderers too. But to have 'innocent blood' by voting for someone? (Absurd) Considering the high probablility of our ancestors fighting wars, we'd all come from a long family history of murderers. This whole community is full of murderers, like it or not.

100% correct. We seem to be wandering off course on the subject of reinstating capital punishment here in Hawaii Ne. I am surprised that there are so many here on this forum who oppose capital punishment. I guess Hawaii is a liberal state, which has a lot of people with liberal beliefs.

Still, if any politician takes the stand that he is pro capital punishment, he will get my vote.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It's certainly looking like there's confusion in what murder, homicide, rules of engagement, warfare and other forms of killing are. Seeing this from tenured posters is seriously disappointing. To call all forms of killing a "murder" is legally and technically incorrect. Human-on-human killing is known as homicide. Not all forms of homicide are considered illegal. If you want to test that theory, break into my house.

Calling soldiers murderers is as ridiculous as calling police officers murderers. With some of the rationalization (I dare not call it logic) seen here, people who contribute to certain (legal) acts are being called murderers. Well, people who neglect to stop or prevent it should be murderers too. But to have 'innocent blood' by voting for someone? (Absurd) Considering the high probablility of our ancestors fighting wars, we'd all come from a long family history of murderers. This whole community is full of murderers, like it or not.