How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[Kaonohi]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Being a citizen of this planet, we are obligated to ensure that smaller, weaker countries are not bullied by larger, more powerful countries.
Nobu

Being a citizen of this planet, I am obligated to ensure that weaker, less powerful individuals are not bullied by larger, more powerful political organizations.
That is only ONE reason I am against capital punishment.

Capital punishment is the ultimate bullying.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

And that would include the USA.

Of course. It includes the USA, and moreso, the USA, being the most powerful country in the world, must be the authority or the police of it.

Whether we agree with it or not as an individual, we all make a pledge to our flag, and anyone in our military takes an oath to defend our country against all enemies, domestic and foriegn,

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The difference, is being a good citizen, you have your duties. Being a citizen of this planet, we are obligated to ensure that smaller, weaker countries are not bullied by larger, more powerful countries.

And that would include the USA.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Leo Lakio>. Both Khalid Sheikh Mohammed & Osama Bin Laden have said that Moussaoui was not part of the 9/11 plan, and Moussaoui himself claimed that he was working on plans for a different attack and was not part of the 9/11 plot. He later claimed that he was, saying his earlier statement was a lie, yet no evidence has been released connecting him to those attacks.

Hi Leo,
First of all, Moussaoui had his trial, and was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of his guilt, in conspiring to kill American citizens in the 9 -11 attacks.... I would not go by hear-say of any sort on that.

Obviously, all 12 of the jurors in his trial believed that he was at least partially responsible for the murders of the about 3,000 people in the 9-11 attacks. AND, ONE of the jurors felt in spite of being a part of about 3,000 murders, should not beget a death sentence.

Did you look at the questionaire that a juror must fill out in order to be on the jury in a death penalty trial?

If not, here it is: http://www.fjc.gov/public/pdf.nsf/lo...e/dpen0041.pdf

It would be very interesting if you too, like Matapule, might think that the lone juror who voted against the death sentence in that trial filled out the questionaire without lying.

Nobu

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One way to keep your country's leaders from starting reckless needless wars would be to hold them accountable at law. Not necessarily with the death penalty, but with hard prison time for things like the Vietnam War or Iraq. Punishment is deterrence, we do need to deter the leaders from reckless decision making.

Hi Kalalau,
I partially agree with you. However, there are limitations.
When Iraq invaded and took over Kuwaite, we could have stayed out of the whole thing, and allowed the takeover, which included many murders and rapes of the Kawaiti people. Financially, we would have been way better off.

HOWEVER, if you see a murder taking place in your neighborhood, do you stay in your house and watch? And not help if you can???? Or do you at the very least, call the police, and hope they get there before someone gets killed? The difference, is being a good citizen, you have your duties. Being a citizen of this planet, we are obligated to ensure that smaller, weaker countries are not bullied by larger, more powerful countries.
Nobu

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Here we go, 1967, all over again. America, love it or leave it (but that doesn't count for the TeaBaggers does it). VietNam is better off today because they "won" the war. It is a relatively prosperous, stable country even though it doesn't meet that definition by ultra-conservative Americans. My buddy, who is a Peace Corps alumnus, works for the Foreign Service and is negotiating a catfish treaty with the VietNamese governement. He has been treated with nothing but respect and courtesy while there. Other friends are going to Hanoi on a ElderHostel program this Fall.

Fact is Nobu, you "lost" and you continue losing. Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Over one million combined deaths for what? So Nobe can say, "we could have won." Winning isn't everything. Sometimes you can "win" when you "lose" if you learn a valuable lession. Some people never learn. To them "winning" is everything.

I'm proud to say, "Hot damn, Viet Nam, Hell no, I didn't go!"

Hi Matapule,

I was in Vietnam in 1964 as a US soldier. This was before the Johnson escallation of the war, and I went back there in 1993, more than 15 years after our pullout. You are correct, that they are better off now, than they were in 1975, but I am not sure if they are actually better off now, than they would be if we won the war instead. Of course, in 1964, the US had only about 15,000 military personnel in Nam, and we were in an advisory role. I think a good comparison would be Korea. We won that conflict, and South Korea is FAR better off than North Korea.

In 1993, the Vietnamese people were more corrupt than ever. If you had money, you could buy your way though anything.

I didn't lose the Vietnam War, but I feel very sorry for the hundreds of thousands that were murdered because of our pullout.

Have you any idea why people were trying to escape the country? I met with some of the people who escaped by boat, and I really don't think most of the people in this country know how things were there after our pullout. I had a friend "Bau", who was lucky enough to get on one of our airplanes that left Nam for Guam. I wish you could have met him. I think you would have a very different idea if you learned from the people who were there, and lived though the transition.

Did you know that your chances of escaping Vietnam by boat was about 10% success? To walk out your chances was very close to ZERO. Young girls would not bathe for weeks before attempting to walk out of that country so if/when they got caught, they would only be murdered, and not raped and murdered.

It took Bau more than 15 years to get his family out of that country and into this one.

So, if you think I lost that war, I would have been glad to have taken that responsibility if it was mine.
Nobu

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One way to keep your country's leaders from starting reckless needless wars would be to hold them accountable at law. Not necessarily with the death penalty, but with hard prison time for things like the Vietnam War or Iraq. Punishment is deterrence, we do need to deter the leaders from reckless decision making.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty...

It was the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

Ah - you are confused.

Both Khalid Sheikh Mohammed & Osama Bin Laden have said that Moussaoui was not part of the 9/11 plan, and Moussaoui himself claimed that he was working on plans for a different attack and was not part of the 9/11 plot. He later claimed that he was, saying his earlier statement was a lie, yet no evidence has been released connecting him to those attacks.

From an affidavit filed by his attorneys after the trial:
10. During the plea colloquy I made it clear to the Court that I did not have knowledge of and was not a member of the plot to hijack and crash planes into buildings in September 11, 2001 but that I was part of another Al-Qaeda plot which was to occur after September 11, 2001.
11. My court appointed attorneys kept telling me that I should not testify and I thought that they would prevent me from testifying, so I decided to ask the government to let me testify as their witness.
12. It is my recollection that when the judge addressed the jury before my trial began, she informed the jury that I was part of the September 11 plot which further confirmed my distrust of the American justice system and further convinced me to testify since I was going to be given death for the September 11 plot anyway.
13. I decided to testify that I had knowledge of and was a member of the plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings on September 11, 2001, even though I knew that was a complete fabrication.
14. I have never met Mohammed Atta and, while I may have seen a few of the other hijackers at the guesthouse, I never knew them or anything about their operation.
15. As I stated during my plea colloquy, I was in the United States as a member of Al-Qaeda but was involved in a separate operation...
18. Because I now see that it is possible that I can receive a fair trial even with Americans as jurors and that I can have the opportunity to prove that I did not have any knowledge of and was not a member of the plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings on September 11, 2001, I wish to withdraw my guilty plea and ask the Court for a new trial to prove my innocence of the September 11 plot.

Zacarias Moussaoui is not considered to have been one of the 9/11 planners.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

As I said earlier, Bush Sr.'s expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait and NOT going to Baghdad was one of the most brilliant military and political moves of the 20th century, it weakened Saddam Hussein but left him as a counterbalance to Iran. Now, with Iraq a basket case, voila: Iran is the big power in the middle east. Wow, never saw that coming. Anybody but an idiot would have, actually. And now we tax payers get to pay to sustain Iraq against Iran, Iran gets stronger, we get weaker, every day. Oh well. Empires come, empires go. All we had to do was leave it alone. bush knew damn well there were no wmd's, thats why the Downing St. Memo is so damning, showing the US distorting the intelligence that showed NO wmd's into saying there were.

A country only has so much resources. A huge amount needs to be reinvested every year in human and physical assets, infrastructure, education, health, etc. True, there is a certain amount you can squander on fun luxuries like the Vietnam War or Iraq, but it does add up, it does sap the strength of the country, its ability to perpetuate itself, this is a special problem when you are competing with countries like China that invest in themselves rather than indulge reckless irresponsible childish leaders war whims. Even if all those lives don't count, the money does add up, the stupidity will eventually strangle the economy. Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I will insert a correction: An estimated 180,000 Kurds out of a population of 3.5 million. Not that any number makes it less significant.

However, only one unreliable source claims the Iraq war was greater than 1 million casualties. The remaining sources estimate (without the Kurdish slaughter) between 100,000-300,000. Although, looking at current tactics, most of their population is killing each other, while America has been exercising significant restraint.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Even though the president is the commander-in-chief of the military, those who actually passed Government class would remember that only Congress can "declare war." So to say something like, "Bush's War" or "Obama's War" or any of that nonsense shows a lack of understanding.

The President can urge all he wants. He can send troops to an area for a short duration of time. Congress must authorize the extended occupation and the declaration.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I would blame the majority of the Americans to demonstrated against the war. The war was a very winnable one. We were defeated at home rather than abroad..

Here we go, 1967, all over again. America, love it or leave it (but that doesn't count for the TeaBaggers does it). VietNam is better off today because they "won" the war. It is a relatively prosperous, stable country even though it doesn't meet that definition by ultra-conservative Americans. My buddy, who is a Peace Corps alumnus, works for the Foreign Service and is negotiating a catfish treaty with the VietNamese governement. He has been treated with nothing but respect and courtesy while there. Other friends are going to Hanoi on a ElderHostel program this Fall.

Fact is Nobu, you "lost" and you continue losing. Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Over one million combined deaths for what? So Nobe can say, "we could have won." Winning isn't everything. Sometimes you can "win" when you "lose" if you learn a valuable lession. Some people never learn. To them "winning" is everything.

I'm proud to say, "Hot damn, Viet Nam, Hell no, I didn't go!"

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I would blame the majority of Americans who supported that war.

I disagree. I would blame the majority of the Americans to demonstrated against the war. The war was a very winnable one. We were defeated at home rather than abroad.

President Johnson escallated the war with the blessings of Congress. I often wonder what Jack Kennedy would have done if he wasn't murdered. My thoughts was that we should have pulled out of that country after the assassination of Diem.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Using the death penalty as deterrence only makes sense in what you might call rational crimes. Crimes of passion and drunken or drug induced brawls would have to be excluded, so would crimes of criminal insanity because people are not operating with rational minds, they are not thinking as they pull the trigger.


I do not think the death toll from Hussein's chemical warfare against the Kurds was anything near a million. The million dead Iraqis referred to died as a result of bush's war, as direct casualties and from the destruction of vital infrastructure, starvation, malnutrition, disease, its the high estimate but considered realistic. Whether it was "only" 100,000 or the full million, they died as collateral damage to the attempted theft of Iraq's oil. If people die in the commission of a felony like theft it is considered murder. Was Hussein considered a friend when he was murdering the Kurds, or had he become an enemy by then?

Hi Kalalau,
I don't think you understand the whole picture on the war in the Middle East, so I will try to explain.

It started with Iraq's invasion of Kuwaite. This was a powerful country Iraq invading an almost defenseless country in Kuaite. Bush Sr, ordered the allies to take action against the aggression, and they drove Iraq out of Kuwaite. In the process of the Desert Storm War, Saddam torched the oil wells in Kuwaite. Upon the ending of Desert Storm, Iraq agreed to, and signed a treaty to allow UN inspectors into that country to ensure that Iraq was not building up their military again. Iraq put up restrictions against the UN inspections which was a violation of the treaty, and Iraq was suspected of developing Weapons of Mass Destructions (WMD)... By then, Bush Jr was President. And he, with CONGRESS, ordered the invasion of Iraq, for breeching the terms of the Desert Storm Treaty.

It was claimed that no WMD was found after Iraq was secured, but we do know that Iraq had poison gas, because Saddam used it against the Kurds. Whether those weapons were destroyed, or moved to Iran is unknown, because there is no record of either.

I would not say that the war in Iraq was illegal, and I support Bush's actions against that country. Without taking Saddam out of office, (Not necessarily by execution) Iraq could have built that country to the military power in the Middle East.

While Bush did some damage to our economy, the two things I am happy about having Bush as our president, is his actions after the 9-11 attacks, as I don't think Gore would have done as much, although I felt that Bush didn't really do enough. AND, his actions taken in the Middle East, creating a better balance of power there.
Nobu

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I would not blame President Johnson, or President Nixon for the 58,000 Americans and more than one million Vietnamese people that died inthat war.

I would blame the majority of Americans who supported that war.