How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Blaming Bush for Hussein's chemical genocide of a million Kurds is like blaming Roosevelt for Hitler's chemical genocide of Jews.

I fully agree with that. While I didn't quite understand the Vietnam War, I would not blame President Johnson, or President Nixon for the 58,000 Americans and more than one million Vietnamese people that died inthat war.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Using the death penalty as deterrence only makes sense in what you might call rational crimes. Crimes of passion and drunken or drug induced brawls would have to be excluded, so would crimes of criminal insanity because people are not operating with rational minds, they are not thinking as they pull the trigger.


I do not think the death toll from Hussein's chemical warfare against the Kurds was anything near a million. The million dead Iraqis referred to died as a result of bush's war, as direct casualties and from the destruction of vital infrastructure, starvation, malnutrition, disease, its the high estimate but considered realistic. Whether it was "only" 100,000 or the full million, they died as collateral damage to the attempted theft of Iraq's oil. If people die in the commission of a felony like theft it is considered murder. Was Hussein considered a friend when he was murdering the Kurds, or had he become an enemy by then?

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Blaming Bush for Hussein's chemical genocide of a million Kurds is like blaming Roosevelt for Hitler's chemical genocide of Jews.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

On the subject of war crimes, it does appear that the invasion of Iraq and resulting death of an estimated million Iraqis was without justification-a premeditated crime, mass murder on the same scale as Germany invading Poland in 1939. Yet we can all know to an absolute certainty that American...justice...will NEVER call those responsible to answer or even to explain. Stalin--"a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." Bet any amount of money you wish, bush will never be tried, a million dead, not a whisper of justice, bet on it. But hold up a liquor store and shoot the clerk, you are toast. "Equal Justice Under The Law", yeah sure.

Jury pools...a jury of your peers, that definitely suggests a cross section of the community and if the community includes some people who absolutely oppose the death penalty excluding them is no different from excluding, say, Baptists, or veterans, or any other identifiable group. Flip the coin, wouldn't it be just as sensible to exclude everyone who supported the death penalty?

On the subject of money which is always so important in thinking about justice...just this morning I happened to flip on the TV for morning coffee & exercises and there was a program about a brutal murder case, defendant named Chavez, the statistic came out that keeping a prisoner for life can cost about $750k but a death penalty case typically runs to $3 to $5 million because of appeals and special housing and security.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It is amusing to see the lack of proportionality in some of these death cases. Take one case of a mother who kills her child, and gets a death penalty sentence. Take other cases (such as war crimes) where a general contributes to the deaths of hundreds or thousands (or even millions) of people in mass-murderings, and gets 20 years in prison. One of the more recent cases involved Kiang Guek Eav, who tortured and killed 14000 people in Cambodia, and received only 19 years.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how illogical and disfunctional it may be. Your opinion does not make it fact.

That is true. However, with an 11 to one vote among 12 common people, I think that is very strong evidence that the one was opposed to capital punishment, especially when it comes to the 9/11 attack where three thousand people were murdered.

I posted the url to the questionaire to qualify for a death penalty jury. This person had to say that he/she would be willing to sentence someone to death if the crime calls for it. If conspiracy to murder 3000 people does not call for the death sentence, I really don't know what does.

If that is not proof enough for you, nothing would be proof enough for you, while it is proof enough for me.

Nobu

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Which trial was that?

Hi Leo,
It was the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui

Nobu

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Kaonohi>Although a death penalty may seem a suitable deterrant, and may seem like justice in some cases, I do not believe in it.

Nobu> Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I disagree with you, and I will address your points.

Kaonohi> Death is preferable to life in prison for offenders (I know one).

Nobu> If death is preferable to life in prison, then please explain why those on Death Row do not forfiet all of their appeals to die sooner, and that most will gladly take a commuted sentence of Life Without the possibility of parole instead? In the case presented in this very forum about the murder trials that took place in Connecticut, why do you think the defense offered a plea deal so that the two murderers could avoid a death sentence?

Kaonohi> Death is a cheap 'out' for cash-strapped governments.

Nobu> That is true, and "life in prison" is far more expensive.

Kaonohi> Death is irreversible, in cases where new evidence comes to light.

Nobu> You also cannot take the years of wrongful incarceration if someone is innocent but wrongfully convicted. So the time spent in prison is also irreversible. Since you see it that way, how about just imposing a fine for murder? That way, if a mistake is made, we can always reimburse the wrongfully convicted?

Kaonohi> If we are to impose punishments upon offenders, we should be prepared to pay the price.

Nobu> True. It is actually cheaper to give an armed robber the cash he would normally net in his crime than to prosecute and punish him. So do you propose that we do away with our penal system????

Kaonohi> Death, unless in the hands of God (or whatever you believe), is simply murder under a different name.

Nobu> Best that you take out your dictionary and look up the definition of murder.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty, the jury was divided 11-1 in favor of a death sentence.

Which trial was that?

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty, the jury was divided 11-1 in favor of a death sentence. That one on the jury to me, lied under oath.

You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how illogical and disfunctional it may be. Your opinion does not make it fact.

[Kaonohi]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Although a death penalty may seem a suitable deterrant, and may seem like justice in some cases, I do not believe in it.

Death is preferable to life in prison for offenders (I know one).
Death is a cheap 'out' for cash-strapped governments.
Death is irreversible, in cases where new evidence comes to light.

If we are to impose punishments upon offenders, we should be prepared to pay the price.

Death, unless in the hands of God (or whatever you believe), is simply murder under a different name.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

There is some standing rule from a supreme ct case several years ago, anti-death penalty people must be excluded from the jury pool on capital cases. The idea is to not bias the jury against death. Well...you of course end up with juries biased in favor of death. Duh. Also fairly often with people less likely to give a defendant the presumption of innocence that our system requires; if the prosecution doesn't prove its case a jury is bound to find a defendant not guilty; he or she walks. We like the presumption of innocence. I live within sight of Mexico where there is no presumption of innocence in law, its a problem as simple and basic as that that leads to so much corruption in Mexican and Latin American police forces, and therefore to the whole economy and politics as well.

Actually no. To qualify to serve on a Death Penalty Jury, they do not ask you wether or not you are anti capital punishment. They ask you if in a questionaire these questions:

********************

a. “I believe that the death penalty is appropriate for all crimes involving
intentional and premeditated murder.”
b. “I believe that the death penalty is appropriate for most crimes involving
intentional and premeditated murder and I could return a verdict which assessed
the death penalty in a proper case.”
c. “I believe that the death penalty is appropriate for some intentional and
premeditated murders and I could return a verdict which assessed the death
penalty.”
d. “Although I do not believe that the death penalty ever ought to be used, as long
as the law provides for it, I could assess it, under the proper set of circumstances.”
e. “I could never, regardless of the facts and circumstances of the intentional and

premeditated murder, return a verdict which assessed the death penalty.”

Source: http://www.fjc.gov/public/pdf.nsf/lo...e/dpen0041.pdf

Now, if you answer is "e", of course you could never be elected for a DP jury because of your prejudice against capital punishment.

If you answer "d", says that you are basically opposed to capital punishment but you can assess it.

It is definite that if you selected "e", you will be dismissed from a capital trial jury.

It is likely, but not definite that if you selected "a" or "d", you will also be dismissed from that jury.

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty, the jury was divided 11-1 in favor of a death sentence. That one on the jury to me, lied under oath.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

There is some standing rule from a supreme ct case several years ago, anti-death penalty people must be excluded from the jury pool on capital cases. The idea is to not bias the jury against death. Well...you of course end up with juries biased in favor of death. Duh. Also fairly often with people less likely to give a defendant the presumption of innocence that our system requires; if the prosecution doesn't prove its case a jury is bound to find a defendant not guilty; he or she walks. We like the presumption of innocence. I live within sight of Mexico where there is no presumption of innocence in law, its a problem as simple and basic as that that leads to so much corruption in Mexican and Latin American police forces, and therefore to the whole economy and politics as well.

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

My daughter is a Doctor of Psychology and I watch Doctor Phil on TV. Oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night too. Well I guess I can now hang out my shingle as a certified Psychologist!

As a self trained "psychologist". I have some opinions no, irrefutable determinations about posters on HT.

Maauli Matapule (that be Tongan witch doctor who practice bush medicine)

Psychology was also one of my interests when I was younger. I did read a lot of books on the subject, and I do have a personal friend who is a psychologist, and a couple of customers who are psychiatrists. Every now and then, when I see them, I may ask them a question or two about their profession, but I always remember, if I was a ditch digger, I would not expect them to ask me to dig a ditch for them.

Here on Kauai, the people tend to mix with nearly all professions and incomes. In my kid's Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts organizations, we had the children of doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers, engineers, and laborers.

Of course my children are all adults now, but I am still friends with their parents in most cases. I ask my daughter about things in her profession often, because I feel I am entitled to ask being that I paid for a lot of her education.

Of course, she is very busy, as she works for the Los Angeles County, which has about 800 murders annually.

I get your point, that our kids education does not mean we have the same credentials. I hope you get mine, that they can provide you with a lot of information from their education.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

My daughter, who is a criminalist specializing in DNA, and of course, the Forensic Files on TRU TV.

My daughter is a Doctor of Psychology and I watch Doctor Phil on TV. Oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night too. Well I guess I can now hang out my shingle as a certified Psychologist!

As a self trained "psychologist". I have some opinions no, irrefutable determinations about posters on HT.

Maauli Matapule (that be Tongan witch doctor who practice bush medicine)