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  • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

    If you think Congress didn't like the Akaka bill in part because it felt the bill created special deals for a specific race, imagine what it would think about a secession bill written to meet the demands of a specific race.

    As the Brits would say, that's just not on.

    However, this outfit seems to think Hawai'i has the right to do so. Of course, it's called The American Secession Project, so it may be a tad biased.
    Last edited by Linkmeister; August 24, 2006, 08:54 PM. Reason: Add Secession Project link
    http://www.linkmeister.com/wordpress/

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    • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

      Originally posted by kamuelakea
      Of course not. With my plan, it would only involve a few thousand Hawaiians cuz that's all there are 50% or greater. They would be given the government lands that were illegally transferred to the state. The Crown Lands. OHA is getting the money from those right now. That's all they would get. They could "trade" those lands for other tracts of land like Niihau (if the Robinsons wanted to sell) and Kahoolawe or Molokai Ranch etc. It would be Nations within a Nation like Indians. The rest of Hawaii's Wannabees could go on pretending just like they are doing now. At least then we could tell the difference between the real Hawaiians and the fake ones.
      This makes complete sense to me and almost completely answers my question of what the Hawaiian activists' ultimate goal is (I’m not being sarcastic btw). This also seems to be the most “do-able” option for the Hawaiians, although not necessarily fair since all the islands aren’t given back to them. Kamuelakea, is this what most Hawaiian activists are fighting for or just your personal opinion or plan? It just seems like the demonstrations, protests, etc. performed by the Hawaiian activists don’t exactly portray this opinion or plan that you gave. Thanks for the good explanation.
      -Arturo

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      • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

        Originally posted by Miulang
        If there was a way to determine if they had established permanent residence in Hawaii prior to 1897 I don't see why not. But I wouldn't extend that to the US military members or the advisers from the Mainland who only participated in certain acts and then skidaddled after the Bayonet Constitution was signed.

        Miulang

        If you go to www.hawaiiankingdom.org, you can see a list of Naturalized citizens prior to the overthrow. There is a lot of other information on that site that also pertains to this discussion as it has evolved from the original "Statehood Holiday" discussion. This site also give information about land title, citizenship, treaties, Kingdom laws (and I mean the "Kingdom" pre 1893, not any current wannabe that may be lurking around).

        Edited to add more information about the website.
        Last edited by anapuni808; August 24, 2006, 09:41 PM.
        "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
        – Sydney J. Harris

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        • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

          Originally posted by arturo_h
          This makes complete sense to me and almost completely answers my question of what the Hawaiian activists' ultimate goal is (I’m not being sarcastic btw). This also seems to be the most “do-able” option for the Hawaiians, although not necessarily fair since all the islands aren’t given back to them. Kamuelakea, is this what most Hawaiian activists are fighting for or just your personal opinion or plan? It just seems like the demonstrations, protests, etc. performed by the Hawaiian activists don’t exactly portray this opinion or plan that you gave. Thanks for the good explanation.
          -Arturo
          The Government lands never belonged to the people (or the King, for that matter). They belonged to the "Government" as part of the land division called the Great Mahele. In 1898, when the so-called "Annexation" happened, those government lands were transferred, from the Republic of Hawaii to the US, according to International law in effect at the time. In 1959, those lands were transferred again from the US to "State of Hawaii", again - from one government to another government. We can argue legality until forever, but under the "assumption" of legality at the times of these events, the land was transferred properly.

          Of course, the fact that no inventory of these lands has ever been taken, we don't really know if anything is missing in all the "handing off" that has happened.

          Again, this is all coming from the "assumption" that all that happened between 1893 and 1959 was legal.

          and all your talk about Ni`ihau is moot because those lands were never part of the government or ceded lands. They were purchased and title was recorded to the Robinson family where it remains today.

          I'm not posting my own personal opinions because where I stand in the struggle going on is not anyone's business except the folks who know me personally. I'm just putting facts out there for folks to consider. This whole discussion has become very interesting - and informative in more ways than one.
          "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
          – Sydney J. Harris

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          • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

            Originally posted by Miulang
            According to what I have discovered, that ineligibility only applied to states that joined the Confederacy by signing the articles of secession and whose legally elected officials voted to rescind the act of secession in the 1860s. Hawai'i was not a state in the 1860s, so I don't believe that if the State elected to petition to secede from the US that it would be illegal. In fact, according to this other article I found, the US Congress issued Joint Resolution 19 which was signed by Bill Clinton in 1993, in which the US officially apologized for 1893 overthrow of the sovereign goverment of Hawai'i and is what forms the legal basis for the Hawaiian sovereignty movement.

            Miulang
            Granted, however.... It is important to note that (here is a lesson for those of you of secessionist bent) prior to the American Civil War threats from the various states (especially the Southern, racist ones) to secede were an acceptable threat to the Union, even relatively common. Post-Civil War the option doesn't even come up. The American Civil War establishes the precedent that, once a State, a geographic area does not have the right to secede simply because it wants to. Basically the rule is, "Once a State, always a State". It is highly unlikely that the United States, once in control of an area, will cede control in any fashion other than blood-shed of the most pernicious sort. Apologies are not promises, nor treaties, and until those are secured there is little if any legal basis for serious political separation between the United States and the nascent Hawaiian activist movement.

            Jewlipino

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            • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

              well, since there was never a treaty to begin with - what's your point? Learn some history before you start spouting off with all the stuff you've posted. I've given you sources in earlier postings. Hey, I don't make this stuff up! It actually has historical basis. Have you ever read the US Constitution - specifically Article 6? Oops - I think that is the correct article. What do you know about existing international law in 1893? in 1959? today? What do you know about actions at the peace court at the Hague? What do you know about international cases filed but the US refuses to respond to? Have you done any research at all? and I don't mean just "googling" some term you think of or going to Wikipedia which changes daily. What books have you read? Who have you spoken with in the Independence movement?

              Just a few questions for you to think about. This thread has strayed so far from its original intent that I personally think it should be closed.
              "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
              – Sydney J. Harris

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              • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                Originally posted by anapuni808
                well, since there was never a treaty to begin with - what's your point?
                I tink somebody is T R O L L I N G.

                Yes, I agree with ya Fran! This thread has drifted far from it's original topic and should be closed.

                Auntie Lynn
                Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                Comment


                • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                  Originally posted by Miulang
                  To have a sovereign nation that is completely populated only by 50-100% blood quantum kanaka maoli is a pipedream.Miulang

                  Okay Auntie, last comment and den cloze um aftah me.

                  Miulang, I'ld like some of whatever you're smoking for weekends cuz you lolo sometimes.

                  If in an effort to restore the HAWAIIAN Nation, we create one consisting of REAL HAWAIIANS is a "pipe dream", then creating one out of Hawaiian Wannabees is an impossibility. That would include half the population of Hawaii and for what? What aspect of REAL HAWAIIANS would it preserve? NOthing.

                  Actually, I think thats the reason most Hawaiian Wannabees and Toe Nail Hawaiians (like me) reject sovereignty for REAL HAWAIIANS. They only support sovereignty if they are going to get a cut of the action. If not? Screw da Hawaiians. That's how I think you guyz really think. Selfish. Its not about restoring a REAL HAWAIIAN Nation, its all about you.

                  And your idea of having a commission on culture that would permit certain lucky "foreigner" into your special little secret society? That sounds either childish or scary.

                  So many people are blinded by their own bias.

                  If you want to restore a Hawaiian Nation. If you REALLY care about what happened to HAWAIIANS, you have to support a plan for HAWAIIANS only.

                  Okay, Pau

                  Now you can close um Aunty.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                    Originally posted by kamuelakea
                    Okay, Pau. Now you can close um Aunty.
                    I wish I could. I would. But I no can. I'm not Admin.

                    I'm Assistant Admin on onnada forum.

                    Auntie Lynn
                    Last edited by 1stwahine; August 25, 2006, 05:21 AM.
                    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                      Geez, I think more mud got slung around here than at Woodstock in 69'.
                      http://tikiyakiorchestra.com
                      Need a place to stay in Hilo ?
                      Cue Factory - Music for your Vision

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                      • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                        Originally posted by tikiyaki
                        Geez, I think more mud got slung around here than at Woodstock in 69'.
                        WOODSTOCK was mellow...everybody was smoking pakalolo. Well mostly everybody.

                        Times have changed.

                        I'm not implying nuttin.

                        Auntie Lynn

                        btw: Let's Drift sum moa!

                        Last edited by 1stwahine; August 25, 2006, 06:59 AM.
                        Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                        Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                          Originally posted by 1stwahine
                          WOODSTOCK was mellow...everybody was smoking pakalolo. Well mostly everybody.

                          Times have changed.

                          I'm not implying nuttin.

                          Auntie Lynn

                          btw: Let's Drift sum moa!
                          Yes, but there WAS alot of mud....
                          http://tikiyakiorchestra.com
                          Need a place to stay in Hilo ?
                          Cue Factory - Music for your Vision

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                          • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                            Originally posted by tikiyaki
                            Yes, but there WAS alot of mud....
                            heheheh. You saw mud did morning too, yeah. heheheh

                            Auntie Lynn
                            Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                            Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                              Yes...now it's everywhere :-)
                              http://tikiyakiorchestra.com
                              Need a place to stay in Hilo ?
                              Cue Factory - Music for your Vision

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                              • Re: Statehood Day Holiday

                                They would have fishing rights out 3 miles. They would have land rights like Indian tribes. Nobody can fish cuz it's international waters. They would live a Hawaiian lifestyle, self sufficient and productive. They could not collect welfare.

                                By far the funniest post on this thread. That paragraph pretty much says it all about the veracity of sovereignty.

                                That means get rid of your truck. Get rid of your double wall home with indoor plumbing and electricity, and get rid of anything that uses the concept of the wheel, and get rid of all tools except those made of stone, bone, or wood.

                                No metal fish hooks. No monofilament line. No rods & reels. No motor on your boat. No fiberglass. No Steinlager. No Li Hing Mui. No Spam.

                                NO MORE WELFARE? That could be the Achilles Heel in the whole plan.

                                I sure am glad that I bought my land directly from the Princess.

                                ROFLMFAO !!
                                FutureNewsNetwork.com
                                Energy answers are already here.

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