Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

[Kilinahe]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

I readily confide in you that I have a problem with haoles, and I keep this confidential.

Good. I don't like you either.

White people didn't keep you from meeting the Asian trophy girlfriend of your dreams. White people aren't "stealing" Asian people's jobs as news anchors in Honolulu. So if you wanna get your jockeys in a knot over something, be pissed off about ice. Be pissed off about traffic. Be pissed off that the school system is so lame. Pull your head out of your ass and appreciate what you have. You came here (I imagine) for the great weather and nice people, so why don't you smile and enjoy it? This is the most beautiful place on earth and you're still bitching.

But what do I know? I'm a stupid haole girl.

[1stwahine]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

Shrinks: $ 350.00 Every two weeks, I got three. Two regular and an intern who takes notes too. I'm a classic "case" HAHAHAHAHAHA! Pretty soon they going bring in one body guard and charge for that too!

I have no problem's with haoles. I have no problems with racial descriminations...I'm simply mental.

Auntie Lynn

Have a beautiful day everybody! Life is too short!

[Miulang]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

Tita, tell us about the therapists you saw that, after your session with them was over, had to go and seek out therapists of their own to deal with what they had heard.

I'm just trying to get scrivener to re-think that PayPal offer over again. It might not be worth losing his sanity over.

Hahaha! I dunno if the therapists (only 2 in my lifetime thus far) have had to seek therapy themselves after talking to me. All I know is in both cases both told me I wasn't so seriously defective that I needed real help. Hence my observation that the therapists I've seen were more like mirrors rather than the kind that would tell me exactly what they thought I should do. And Lurkah, you really think I would listen to what they tried to make me do, anyway?

And Scriv, since I was only paying $5-10 for the 50-minute hour that therapists were charging me, it'd take a reallllly long time for you to get rich off my "idiot"syncracies!

Miulang

[Surfingfarmboy]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

I'm a haole of German ancestry, born in Hawai'i, now living on the mainland. I had no idea I was so racist until I read this thread.

When (or should I say if ) I move back to Hawai'i, will I revert to person I once was, when I lived in the islands, with no racist attitudes aimed at the non-haoles I come in contact with, or will I continue to be the racist haole that I am here on the mainland?

Re: a devolution phenomenon?

scrivener wrote: " My problem was with his use of the word 'most' when there's just no way he could know what 'most' haoles think. "

If "there's just no way he could know what 'most' haoles think", how is it that you can know what most haole think, to insist that he is wrong and you are right?
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scrivener wrote: "it does not become a racist stereotype to say "some" people do this or "some" people do that, because "some" means ONE at the very least--a difficult thing to contest.
"If he had said 'some' instead of most, I'd have left that part of his message alone with no comment, because of course it's true that some haoles are racist. 'Some' means at least one, and there's just no way I could dispute that, because I know a lot of haoles who are racists."

That " 'some' means at least one" (and is therefore deemed to be insignificant) hardly means that 'some' cannot also mean 49%, or even more (which is not insignificant). And, as you write "...I know a lot of haoles who are racists", 'a lot of' describes more than is typically meant by the term 'some', in fact 'a lot of' doesn't necessarily mean less than a majority. In other words, without your being fully aware it, it seems possible that of the haole you know "who are racists", it is possible they may even be in the majority of the haole you know; and, in that light one could even surmise that it would not be totally unreasonable (or be racial stereotyping) were you to write that 'most' haole you know are racists: 'most' meaning larger, greater, largest, greatest, consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number;<a considerable quantity or extent <a lot of money>.

In other words, we are sparing over the use of words whose definitions when it comes to numbers of things, people, percentages and whatnot describe, apply to a wide range.
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scrivener wrote: "....will you acknowledge that "that is true for me also" could also have been read simply as, "I agree?"

I cannot acknowledge that when I wrote "In a general way that is true for me also." was just my wordier way of writing "I agree." ; however, that someone, such as yourself apparently, could read it as "I agree" is beyond my control. I do not speed-write, so it is likely that I would not be fully understood by someone who might speed-read, or try to speed-read, what I write.
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scrivener wrote: "It is perhaps moot now that I know what you were trying to say, but for further clarity, I'd like to point out that 'most' and 'majority' are synonymous. 'Majority' means fifty percent plus one. 'Most' means more than half."

If you used a thesaurus to find that 'most' and 'majority' are synonymous I would much appreciate your revealing your source for such. If you did not use a thesaurus, perhaps you could try. There are numerous free on-line sources and I neither expected nor did I discover the synonymous connection between the two words. You err in " 'Most' means more than half."; that is not correct.
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scrivener wrote: "...I take frequent exception to matters of obvious semantic error; I wasn't singling you out for anything; I was merely pointing out that what I thought you said could simply not be proven and was therefore not a fair assessment."

Much of the reason why I do not speed-write is because I pay such close attention to semantics. I appreciate semantic correctness, and appreciate being read closely enough to be corrected when I do err, though I remain at a loss still as to where you have found such error in the posts of mine which you cite.
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scrivener wrote: 'It is certainly in my capacity to make stereotypes. In fact, I am a frequent defender of stereotypes; stereotypes sometimes exist for completely defensible reasons.

I very much concur, "stereotypes sometimes exist for completely defensible reasons." Sometimes they exist solely for defensive purposes. Life's experiences are supposed to be additive such that we can protect ourselves from "being had".
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scrivener wrote: "Again, I'd like to say that I do not contest what anyone claims is his or her experience. As I told Kahalabrah, "most haoles in my experience" is a completely different statement from "most haoles."

Kahalabrah did at least once qualify his "most haoles" statement as being what he experienced. His having done so at least once was significant enough to me that I could give him the benefit of the doubt so I did not take his "most haoles" statements to be bigoted.
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scrivener wrote: "I know that a lot of people sense what you expect from them."

From the way you describe your experiences in this regard, my experiences have been more mixed than yours. Peoples' preconceptions(stereotyping) of me, what they think of me in the absence of direct experience and contact, has tended to superceded their senses at least just as often as not. I tend to be much the same with regard to others.
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scrivener: "I was only trying to be helpful."

I don't doubt that for a minute.
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scrivener: "Also, why do you say 'alleged assumption'? Did I misinterpret what you meant when you wrote, 'That is not to say that I am prejudiced to the point of not keeping open the window of opportunity for such haole to prove that he, she or they is not of that stereotype...?' If so, I apologize for that misinterpretation, too, but I would like to know what you meant."

Even though my experience leads me to claim that the majority of U.S. mainland haole are racist (to various degrees of course: from the psychopathic bigot to the grandmotherly segregationist), I firmly believe that they, like me, are to a great extent products of their environment and as such their prejudices are not immutable because environments can change.. Expecting something is not the same thing as assuming something. When one is expecting something, it usually means that there is intellectual space wherein there is room to accommodate that which is not expected. When one assumes something one takes something for granted, seizes upon, takes over without justification, is more likely not to have the intellectual space wherein there is room to accommodate that which falls outside one's assumptions.

big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
[French, from Old French.]
Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant "an excessively devoted or hypocritical person." Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense "a superstitious hypocrite."

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

thank you for your extremely kind words scrivener. i am surprised to learn that you are haole since you have posted a photo of an asian man on your profile (?) it has been a little misleading since all this time i thought i was responding to a sympathetic asian man instead of a symptathetic haole.

This is a little late, but...

kahalabrah, this misunderstanding of yours about scrivener's ethnicity says a lot to me about where you've come from. I look at scrivener's photo, and I see a hapa guy. In today's Hawai‘i this is so common that it's completely unremarkable. You look at his photo, and you see Asian. KB, it seems to me that you've been brought up around such a majority of white people that anything that's remotely not-white immediately jumps out to your view. I can't help but think that this colors (no pun intended) your attitudes somehow.

[scrivener]

Re: a devolution phenomenom?

Are you suggesting that he is not fully aware of what he experienced when he was on the U.S. mainland?

Absolutely not, as I expressed in post #22 above. My problem wasn't with whether or not he experienced what he said he experienced. My problem was with his use of the word "most" when there's just no way he could know what "most" haoles think.

Suppose instead of "most haole" he had written "some haole?" Would you disgree as much as you do now with what he has written? Why, because it would be untrue? Does it not become a racist stereotype were he to use "some" instead of "most"?

If he had said "some" instead of most, I'd have left that part of his message alone with no comment, because of course it's true that some haoles are racist. I thought I made it clear that since he said "most" and not "most in my experience," I found it an unfair generalization of haoles. "Some" means at least one, and there's just no way I could dispute that, because I know a lot of haoles who are racists.

Waioli Kai, it does not become a racist stereotype to say "some" people do this or "some" people do that, because "some" means ONE at the very least--a difficult thing to contest.

I did not use the term "most", i wrote that, from my experiences, "the majority do fit the stereotype", you can read that as "most" if it suits you so,

For the sake of clarity, I'm going to reprint the statement I responded to:

In a general way that is true for me also. There is definitely a stereotype that has been, is well earned and deserved by ("white" men and women) haole from the U.S. mainland that is distinct to such haole. Not all those haole fit the stereotype but I agree that the majority do.

You say now that this generalization is "from your experience," which again I will not contest. If that's what you meant in the original statement when you said, "That is true for me also," then I apologize for misreading what you wrote. Looking back on it, I can see that this might be what you meant. However, will you acknowledge that "that is true for me also" could also have been read simply as, "I agree?"

It is perhaps moot now that I know what you were trying to say, but for further clarity, I'd like to point out that "most" and "majority" are synonymous. "Majority" means fifty percent plus one. "Most" means more than half.

perhaps it fits me into some stereotype that your experiences have dealt you.

If you look at the history of my posts at HawaiiThreads (did Palolo Joe just come out of my mouth? ), you'll see that I take frequent exception to matters of obvious semantic error; I wasn't singling you out for anything; I was merely pointing out that what I thought you said could simply not be proven and was therefore not a fair assessment.

Oh, that's right you have not the facility for stereotyping like some of the rest of us do. Maybe its a devolution phenomenom from your having benefitted from living in 'the classless, raceless U.S.' that is yet to be realized by kahalabrah, me and such people as us, as is our stereotype?

Oh, I never claimed that. Ask me sometime what I think of Punahou grads. It is certainly in my capacity to make stereotypes. In fact, I am a frequent defender of stereotypes; stereotypes sometimes exist for completely defensible reasons.

I've experienced racism all of my life. I know what it is and what is not. I know that the effects of centuries of U.S. economic, judicial and legislative racism are not to be dismissed by the hollow blessings of lofty rhetoric or the shallow security afforded by corporate capitalism in a pseudo-democracy.

Again, I'd like to say that I do not contest what anyone claims is his or her experience. As I told Kahalabrah, "most haoles in my experience" is a completely different statement from "most haoles."

As for, "Why don't you let them prove to you that they are (racist) before you assume anything?", What difference does it make whether I assume one way or the other, or no way at all? How does my alleged assumption alter the reality of what they are or what they are not?

I don't think it changes a thing, except that I know that a lot of people sense what you expect from them. If you expect them to be ignorant or mean, they will respond to that in some way, often unfavorably. If you expect them to be sensible or nice, they often respond favorably. I'm a high school teacher, and students appreciate it when they walk into my class and I don't expect them to be like the older siblings I've taught; they also appreciate it when I give them time and space to show me who they are, rather than listen to what their previous teachers may have told me. I was only trying to be helpful.

Also, why do you say "alleged assumption?" Did I misinterpret what you meant when you wrote, "That is not to say that I am prejudiced to the point of not keeping open the window of opportunity for such haole to prove that he, she or they is not of that stereotype...?" If so, I apologize for that misinterpretation, too, but I would like to know what you meant.

Waioli, I don't think for a moment that racism does not exist; my problem was that when people say, "most haoles are racist," they are making a racist statement themselves. I thought that was what you were saying, but if it's not, I've already apologized for misreading you.

[D'Alani]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

okay d'alani.
you are fortunate enough not to harbor the anger that stews within me. you are fortunate not to have had countless confrontations with mainland whites who judged ME solely because of my ethnicity. wouldn't this f*** with your head after a while, especially if you had to endure this racism as a little boy through adulthood? my haole shrink certainly empathized with me, why can't you, a fellow asian?
k

All I can say to this is you are so very lucky there is no draft, as in drafted ihto the military service. What would you do if you were in combat and you were the only "asian"... have your attitude or try to make friends so they will cover you okole? Some of you young people just don't know how lucky you are so enjoy life, it's all good. Nuff said on this topic for me.

Aloha Kahalabrah.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

Trigger-Typing-Remorse is setting in.

My frustration with this post is human nature. But I am capable of controlling that nature, and I chose not to a little while ago, when I typed off the lip. I added nothing of value to this discussion, and I apologize to you, Kahalabrah, because I believe that you wrote your original post not to justify your attitude, but overcome it.

However, my "go hug a haole" suggestion still stands.

me ke aloha, Pua'i

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

Excedrin Headache #258.

[MadAzza]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

Anyone have a couple of extra-strength Tylenols?

a devolution phenomenom?

You're only taking a beating because you (kahalabrah) insist that "most haoles" are anything and that's a racist stereotype.

kahalabrah wrote: " ...relating my life's experience with haoles"

scrivener wrote: "...yet you insist that "most haoles" this or "most haoles" that... you don't know what's in the hearts of "most" haoles, because you haven't met most of them."

kahalabrah makes it clear that he is referring to the U.S. mainland haole he has met during his lifetime so far. He "insists (you say)" that such are his experiences. Are you suggesting that he is not fully aware of what he experienced when he was on the U.S. mainland?

Suppose instead of "most haole" he had written "some haole". Would you disgree as much as you do now with what he has wriitten? Why, because it would be untrue? Does it not become a racist stereotype were he to use "some" instead of "most"?

scrivener wrote: "Waioli Kai, you're doing the same thing when you insist that haoles "prove" to you that they're not racists. Why don't you let them prove to you that they are before you assume anything?"

I did not use the term "most", i wrote that, from my experiences, "the majority do fit the stereotype", you can read that as "most" if it suits you so, perhaps it fits me into some stereotype that your experiences have dealt you. Oh, that's right you have not the facility for stereotyping like some of the rest of us do. Maybe its a devolution phenomenom from your having benefitted from living in 'the classless, raceless U.S.' that is yet to be realized by kahalabrah, me and such people as us, as is our stereotype?

I've experienced racism all of my life. I know what it is and what is not. I know that the effects of centuries of U.S. economic, judicial and legislative racism are not to be dismissed by the hollow blessings of lofty rhetoric or the shallow security afforded by corporate capitalism in a pseudo-democracy.

As for, "Why don't you let them prove to you that they are (racist) before you assume anything?", What difference does it make whether I assume one way or the other, or no way at all? How does my alleged assumption alter the reality of what they are or what they are not?

[Menehune Man]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

Man, you are so haole.

Now that was funny! Thanks.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

Although in real life I employ haoles, have haole clients and business associates, I readily confide in you that I have a problem with haoles, and I keep this confidential. Why is this so bad I ask? I don't hurt anyone, instead it is I who has been traumatized from a former lifetime of racism by haoles. I have been through countless hours of therapy with, believe it or not, a very sympathetic, haole therapist. I have "let go" of a lot of anger and bitterness....but not all.

I am not looking for a confrontation. Can't I get a little compassion from some people for my honesty ? Please try and put yourself in my position. That's all.

Peace.

Man, you are so haole.

==========
Edited to add, the attitude you write from is very fresh off the jet from somewhere 1000s of miles away from here. You might be Asian in ancestry (something you cannot control) but your lens is American (which, driven by passive experiences, is now the driving force behind your conscious recognition of perpetuating picking--and picking on-- people because of their ancestry).

Contrast this with us here whose lens is local™ (someone like me, who is Hawaiian, but also has plantation blood and a sailor or two in the tree). Have you *any* clue how hard it is do deal with the likes of you? Its like a gorilla swinging his samsonite, and not everyone appreciates getting whacked by your baggage.

Detox, brah. Go hug a haole. Find a local one and humble yourself to befriend him/her. You will learn what it means to be born and raised someplace as a minority, and how to find the beauty in being a subjected minority. Mo' bettah than one therapist, I promise.

[lurkah]

Re: Am I the only one to admit that I have a problem with haoles?

In fact, a long time ago, I went to a therapist because I thought I needed assistance in thinking out a problem. At the end of the initial session, the therapist told me she didn't need to see me anymore. When I asked why, she said, "You're too normal."

Tita, tell us about the therapists you saw that, after your session with them was over, had to go and seek out therapists of their own to deal with what they had heard.

I'm just trying to get scrivener to re-think that PayPal offer over again. It might not be worth losing his sanity over.