JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

[Walkoff Balk]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

June Jones is avoiding the media because he couldn't adjust to Lee Cataluna's speed.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

I apologize because you know June Jones more on a than I do. All I was saying is that a contract is a contract and if he owes UH $400,000 he should pay it, even if he left early taking the opportunity (being an opportunist?) SMU gave him before his contract was up instead of sticking it out until it was over even though the situation was difficult. It's not a personal knock on the guy that he didn't stick it out until his contract (commitment) he signed was over, it's a fact. People are getting caught up in the emotions of a great season, and not paying attention to the business end of things, which is why JJ left in the first place with the whole Frazier and facilities problem.

Legally speaking, you are correct. If UH wants to stick it to JJ, despite all of the amazing accomplishments over the last nine years, they could. And I would imagine that for those people who: 1) think JJ is being greedy and/or 2) just plain don't like him, you'll will no doubt believe that having him forfeit a substantial amount of his salary is the "right" thing to do. So be it.

Here's my viewpoint: 1) June Jones came to UH with the football program in a mess. Forget about just being 0-12 in 1998. UH was 12-47 the five years before June arrived. Obviously, he turned the team around in a big way this past decade.

2) Forget about the unprecedented success of this past season. (Undefeated regular season, outright WAC title, BCS bowl bid, Colt's Heisman finalist performance.) JJ's success has not been a flash in the pan. He's turned UH into a perennial WAC powerhouse, with 6 bowl bids in 9 seasons. (Should have been 7, had the Aloha Bowl not folded up in 2001.) And he's done this with one of the worst conditioned facilities in the nation.

3) June took a big pay cut to come to Manoa in the first place. The naysayers can ramble on all they want about how $320,000 (his original salary) is a LOT of money. (Many of whom, I imagine, flip burgers for a living.) Whether anyone wants to face up to this or not, the fact remains: June passed up more lucrative opportunities in the NFL in order to come here. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, June made a financial sacrifice by coaching here.

Looking at these three factors, my conclusion is: June produced results that were above and beyond the call of duty. His record of success dwarfs the accomplishments of all of his predecessors, as respectable as some of them were. (i.e. Dave Holmes, Dick Tomey, Bob Wagner.) To stick it to June after all this, regardless of whose side the law would be on,.... that would amount to nothing more than a "dog in the manger" attitude on the part of the university. At least, that's the way I see it.

The most successful football team of the 1960s was the Green Bay Packers, led by the late Vince Lombardi. ("Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing.") But one of the most classiest things that the Packers did was to release Lombardi from his contract a full FIVE years early so that he could become a part-owner of the Washington Redskins, a team that was desperate to hire him as their coach. Realizing that the offer of stock in an NFL team was a rare opportunity and being grateful for all that he had done for the team and the Green Bay community, the Packers board of directors graciously agreed to not stand in Lombardi's way. One would hope that UH would also display a similar kind of class when it comes to June Jones, after all that he has done for this school and state.

As OP said, it wouldn't be surprising at all should June decide to voluntarily forego part of his salary, with the idea of helping out UH. Despite what Lee Cataluna may think, June does care about the university and the football program he is leaving behind. But as I said, the UH admin. could either show grace and class in how it handles this situation,..... or it could choose to part ways with its greatest football coach in a bush-league manner.

If its the latter, I wonder if someone like Norm Chow would think it worthwhile to take a pay cut to coach at UH if he sees them treating JJ in such a petty and meanspirited way.

[Random]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

If he honored the terms of his contract, that would also mean that he can't sign with another team until the contract is finished and the SMU deal is null and void because he's still the coach of Hawaii.

Yeah, but if you want him to stick around for scouting and recruiting and not for coaching that would create a shake-up in leadership. The players that signed their Letters of Intent because of JJ is going to have second thoughts about coming into the team (and UH) with a new coach they don't know.

Why Frazier gave Jones permission to even talk to SMU way back in December, 6 months before his deal was up with UH is inexcusable because it left UH with no time to bargain (like they were even negotiating anyway). I think Frazier wanted Jones gone anyway so he could hire "his guy" whoever that was who would respect him as AD.

That would be the DUMBEST reason for making such a BONEHEADED move.

And why are we paying him to leave? Why can't we fire him, Hawaiian-style (i.e., into the active volcano)?

[Kittrick]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

Legally speaking, you are correct. If UH wants to stick it to JJ, despite all of the amazing accomplishments over the last nine years, they could. And I would imagine that for those people who: 1) think JJ is being greedy and/or 2) just plain don't like him, you'll will no doubt believe that having him forfeit a substantial amount of his salary is the "right" thing to do. So be it.

Here's my viewpoint: 1) June Jones came to UH with the football program in a mess. Forget about just being 0-12 in 1998. UH was 12-47 the five years before June arrived. Obviously, he turned the team around in a big way this past decade.

2) Forget about the unprecedented success of this past season. (Undefeated regular season, outright WAC title, BCS bowl bid, Colt's Heisman finalist performance.) JJ's success has not been a flash in the pan. He's turned UH into a perennial WAC powerhouse, with 6 bowl bids in 9 seasons. (Should have been 7, had the Aloha Bowl not folded up in 2001.) And he's done this with one of the worst conditioned facilities in the nation.

3) June took a big pay cut to come to Manoa in the first place. The naysayers can ramble on all they want about how $320,000 (his original salary) is a LOT of money. (Many of whom, I imagine, flip burgers for a living.) Whether anyone wants to face up to this or not, the fact remains: June passed up more lucrative opportunities in the NFL in order to come here. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, June made a financial sacrifice by coaching here.

Looking at these three factors, my conclusion is: June produced results that were above and beyond the call of duty. His record of success dwarfs the accomplishments of all of his predecessors, as respectable as some of them were. (i.e. Dave Holmes, Dick Tomey, Bob Wagner.) To stick it to June after all this, regardless of whose side the law would be on,.... that would amount to nothing more than a "dog in the manger" attitude on the part of the university. At least, that's the way I see it.

The most successful football team of the 1960s was the Green Bay Packers, led by the late Vince Lombardi. ("Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing.") But one of the most classiest things that the Packers did was to release Lombardi from his contract a full FIVE years early so that he could become a part-owner of the Washington Redskins, a team that was desperate to hire him as their coach. Realizing that the offer of stock in an NFL team was a rare opportunity and being grateful for all that he had done for the team and the Green Bay community, the Packers board of directors graciously agreed to not stand in Lombardi's way. One would hope that UH would also display a similar kind of class when it comes to June Jones, after all that he has done for this school and state.

As OP said, it wouldn't be surprising at all should June decide to voluntarily forego part of his salary, with the idea of helping out UH. Despite what Lee Cataluna may think, June does care about the university and the football program he is leaving behind. But as I said, the UH admin. could either show grace and class in how it handles this situation,..... or it could choose to part ways with its greatest football coach in a bush-league manner.

If its the latter, I wonder if someone like Norm Chow would think it worthwhile to take a pay cut to coach at UH if he sees them treating JJ in such a petty and meanspirited way.

From Random:
Yeah, but if you want him to stick around for scouting and recruiting and not for coaching that would create a shake-up in leadership. The players that signed their Letters of Intent because of JJ is going to have second thoughts about coming into the team (and UH) with a new coach they don't know.

I just think it's crazy to say "hey you did a great job. Even though you don't work here anymore don't worry about the $400,000 you owe us for leaving early." I have no doubts JJ is a nice guy, it's just that if any government worker besides him left in the same situation under contract, I bet we'd all be screaming for him to pay it back for leaving early.

With a change this big, you are probably going to lose some of those who intended to come to Hawaii anyway, but I'm convinced that the contract he signed that expires in June...he never intended to leave. I say this, because it was in an Advertiser article a few days ago that he even tried to restructure the contract in 05' for a 5 year term to get paid even less ($500,000) and have the remainder of the salary divided amongst his assistants and even bring back Mouse Davis, but Frazier rejected it.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

Why can't we fire him, Hawaiian-style (i.e., into the active volcano)?

Because UH wasn't able to get a bargain fare to Hawai`i Island on go!, and they didn't want to wait for HSF service to get there.


(Talk about cross-threading...this post links up a three-way, sort of a message e trois.)

[Random]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

Because UH wasn't able to get a bargain fare to Hawai`i Island on go!, and they didn't want to wait for HSF service to get there.

So, what the use of having outrigger canoe clubs and the Moloka'i Hoe event for?

Look, you don't have to make room inside the canoe for Frazier. Strapped him to the bottom of the boat.

[Random]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

I just think it's crazy to say "hey you did a great job. Even though you don't work here anymore don't worry about the $400,000 you owe us for leaving early." I have no doubts JJ is a nice guy, it's just that if any government worker besides him left in the same situation under contract, I bet we'd all be screaming for him to pay it back for leaving early.

Perhaps. But any legal chance we can make SMU pay JJ's penalty?

[oceanpacific]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

The problem is that these contracts and their provisions are subject to judicial review and the best result may be getting the different sides to compromise. It may cost UH and/or June Jones MORE than the amount at stake to go through a court fight. All that accomplishes is to make either or both sides look bad (GREEDY, VINDICTIVE, CHICKEN-S**T, etc.) and the attorneys end up with all the money. What appears to common sense in my eyes (JJ not getting paid his $400K for Jan.-June 2008 is a "wash" against this $400K "penalty") may or may not be upheld in court. My conclusion that JJ would be returning his $400K salary for July-Dec. 2007 and would have worked this fiscal year for "free" could be deemed incorrect by the court, no matter how "logical" it seems.

The same applies to Herman Frazier's "buyout" for his dismissal "without cause." Everyone knows that there certainly was "cause:" that IDIOT was incompetent and lazy. But a court fight regarding his termination may have cost more in legal fees than the settlement, so UH settled because it would have been less expensive.

We have a LEGAL system, not a JUSTICE system, in operation. Guys like O. J.. Simpson and Robert Blake "got away with murder" because of the way it operates. The lawyers (and the Brown family) couldn't get OJ's NFL pension, but the attorneys got everything else from OJ - his house, boats, etc.

[Random]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

I'm not going to look at UH for being greedy.

Besides, based on bits of JJ's press conference, he stated NOTHING is going to keep him in Hawai'i, short of retiring to Kona. That statement contradicted previous ones about whether he had a difficult time making a decision to leave Hawai'i.

I also cannot understand his statement of loyalty to Frazier which contradicted his alleged resignation letter that expressed frustration with Frazier (as well as the UH administration).

I don't have any grudge against him. But he made the decision to leave Hawai'i when his contract ends, long before SMU came calling.

[Kittrick]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

I'm not going to look at UH for being greedy.

Besides, based on bits of JJ's press conference, he stated NOTHING is going to keep him in Hawai'i, short of retiring to Kona. That statement contradicted previous ones about whether he had a difficult time making a decision to leave Hawai'i.

I also cannot understand his statement of loyalty to Frazier which contradicted his alleged resignation letter that expressed frustration with Frazier (as well as the UH administration).

I don't have any grudge against him. But he made the decision to leave Hawai'i when his contract ends, long before SMU came calling.

Exactly! I was weirded out by what he said on the teevee too, because he made it sound like SMU was the perfect opportunity he was looking for all along, and nothing UH did would have kept him in Hawaii.

He could have phrased it better from a PR perspective like "I've done everything there is to do here, so I've decided to move on", but it wasn't phrased like that at all. It sounded opportunistic to me, but I could have interpreted it wrong.

I thought he sounded awfully diplomatic to the issue of Herman Frazier. Is he the next AD at SMU or something?

[Random]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

I thought he sounded awfully diplomatic to the issue of Herman Frazier. Is he the next AD at SMU or something?

Now, now. You make it sound like Frazier engineered this whole thing so he too can move to SMU, even though they already have one who did the right thing: hire June Jones.

From what I hear, Mr. Frazier is getting a national post, CEO of USA Track & Field. I suddenly feel sorry for our US Summer Olympic athletes competing in that field.

[Kittrick]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

Now, now. You make it sound like Frazier engineered this whole thing so he too can move to SMU, even though they already have one who did the right thing: hire June Jones.

From what I hear, Mr. Frazier is getting a national post, CEO of USA Track & Field. I suddenly feel sorry for our US Summer Olympic athletes competing in that field.

It was a bad joke when I mentioned SMU. If you look at Frazier's history at UH, it was like he wasn't working for the university's best interests, but for another university or something because he seemed to do things the opposite of what he should have done for UH...but I'm pretty sure it was just the incompetence. But you have to think to yourself: man that takes a lot of effort to screw things up the way he did with so many issues!

I bet he could screw up a sport where people just run around a track, jump over things, or throw some object too somehow.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

Exactly! I was weirded out by what he said on the teevee too, because he made it sound like SMU was the perfect opportunity he was looking for all along, and nothing UH did would have kept him in Hawaii.

He could have phrased it better from a PR perspective like "I've done everything there is to do here, so I've decided to move on", but it wasn't phrased like that at all. It sounded opportunistic to me, but I could have interpreted it wrong.

Of course, Jones also said in his e-mail to Frazier that he likely would have re-signed had UH tendered an offered in 2005, or even before the start of this past season.

So if seeking out a more appreciative and responsive employer falls under your definition of someone who is "opportunistic," whatever.

I thought he sounded awfully diplomatic to the issue of Herman Frazier. Is he the next AD at SMU or something?

I think you have to read the way JJ "defended" HF. Here is a direct quote from yesterday's press conference.

He (Frazier) was faced with a lot of the frustrations I faced the first four years on the job until he showed up.

Here, JJ sheds light on an important truth. The problems at UH did not begin with Herman Frazier. It was already there when JJ first started in 1999, with a different university president, chancellor, athletic director, and board of regents. Numerous people have come and gone from those positions over the last 9 years. But the problems caused by a reactive (rather than proactive) bureaucracy was a constant. And I think that JJ wanted the public to know THAT was one of the major reasons why he left UH. It wasn't solely because of Herman Frazier.

I'm speculating here, of course. But I think June wanted to make that last point clear to the public, because the timing of his departure and HF's firing obscured the root cause of what eventually drove JJ to the difficult decision to go to SMU. As incompetent an AD as Frazier has proven himself to be, let no one be fooled into thinking that the present mess was entirely the work of one person (Herman). I said it in another post. How could the president and the chancellor have let things get so far before personally becoming involved in JJ's contract negotiations? Their part in this coaching crisis is inexcusable. Merely firing HF does not clear them from sharing in the responsibility.

[Kittrick]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

Of course, Jones also said in his e-mail to Frazier that he likely would have re-signed had UH tendered an offered in 2005, or even before the start of this past season.

So if seeking out a more appreciative and responsive employer falls under your definition of someone who is "opportunistic," whatever.



I think you have to read the way JJ "defended" HF. Here is a direct quote from yesterday's press conference.

He (Frazier) was faced with a lot of the frustrations I faced the first four years on the job until he showed up.

Here, JJ sheds light on an important truth. The problems at UH did not begin with Herman Frazier. It was already there when JJ first started in 1999, with a different university president, chancellor, athletic director, and board of regents. Numerous people have come and gone from those positions over the last 9 years. But the problems caused by a reactive (rather than proactive) bureaucracy was a constant. And I think that JJ wanted the public to know THAT was one of the major reasons why he left UH. It wasn't solely because of Herman Frazier.

I'm speculating here, of course. But I think June wanted to make that last point clear to the public, because the timing of his departure and HF's firing obscured the root cause of what eventually drove JJ to the difficult decision to go to SMU. As incompetent an AD as Frazier has proven himself to be, let no one be fooled into thinking that the present mess was entirely the work of one person (Herman). I said it in another post. How could the president and the chancellor have let things get so far before personally becoming involved in JJ's contract negotiations? Their part in this coaching crisis is inexcusable. Merely firing HF does not clear them from sharing in the responsibility.

I'm thinking the president and the chancellor thought the AD was doing his job, but I certainly think they are at fault for not checking up at least on the progress wayyyy earlier than the last game of the year to have to step in to do the AD's job. I'm thinking if Hugh Yoshida was there, it would have been a done deal.

[Random]

Re: JUNE JONES PAY or NO? $400K

So, who have the guts to call into question of the UH BOREs?

Perhaps we should get our state legislators to question the entire UH BOREs in the same way they questioned Bishop Trustees in the past.