UH Haka

[scrivener]

Re: UH Haka

I do not know what possessed me to read this thread nearly a month after it was begun, and I do not know what possessed me to read THROUGH it after some of the idiotic contributions, but I've read it, and I actually formed some kind of opinion.

First, there are two issues, really. The haka as a cultural exploitation and the haka as a legal violation (or at least as something that offends "intellectual property" sensibilities).

Let's take that second issue first. If the UH-Manoa football team is copying something written for and performed by a New Zealand rugby team, I will agree that it is lame. However, copyright laws (at least in America; I won't even pretend to know the first thing about international copyright law) do not cover performance. Anyone who wants to can perform "Purple Rain" in concert without permission from Prince, for example, though Prince's music-licensing company (usually ASCAP or BMI) will pursue royalty payments. If I understand correctly, any Joe could even record "Purple Rain" without Prince's permission. It often costs money to do so with permission and even more money to do so without permission, but the point is that permission is not necessary. Plus, you'd piss off Prince.

The world of athletics is rife with examples of teams (and fans of those teams) ripping off what other teams have done. Florida State fans have complained for more than ten years about the Atlanta Braves' fans stealing the "tomahawk chop." The New York Giants defense has taken to doing a "jump shot" mime after making a great play, but there is evidence that players on other teams were doing it first. Oh, and I don't know if you know this, but that "Hawaii Five-O" music that the Manoa band plays? That was from a television show.

So it makes sense that a fan of the All-Blacks would be upset, but it is silly to demand that some other team stop copying; copying happens in sports all the time.

Now that first issue, about cultural offense, is something else. Is the football team's use of the haka an exploitation of an honored tradition of another culture? Does it trivialize an important aspect of someone's culture to perform it on a football field before a game?

Oh yeah.

But a lot depends on the spirit in which it is intended. When a hula halau in Texas, made up mostly of non-islanders, performs on the mainland, is it an exloitation or does it honor the culture and traditions that surround the dance? On the other hand, when dancers perform hula on those boats that leave Honolulu every evening loaded with tourists, is it just as honoring, or is it mostly commercial?

Of course the answer is not easy. I've known people who dance in those shows, and they say that every minute of it honors their culture. This may be true, but what if the overall intent is simply to make money or to perpetuate some kind of visitors' vision of what Hawaii is suppsed to be? Then, while my friends may have nothing but noble intentions, the people providing the venue do not, and hula is merely a commercial venture. On still another hand, if those business-people are going to hire SOMEONE to dance, is it not better that those dancers be people who know and honor the traditions, rather than someone who learns a few steps just for the show?

Similarly, I know of at least one halau that insists that hula competition itself dishonors the tradition, so there are no clear lines in this thing. I think the very discussion, though, is worthwhile, because it helps us to focus on our priorities.

So here's the deal, as I see it: Assuming all intents are noble (or at least equally ignoble), is it wrong for a football team to co-opt a traditional Maori dance? Perhaps, but if it is, it's wrong for ANY sports team to do so. If it's wrong for cultural reasons for the Manoa football team to do it, it's probably equally wrong for the New Zealand rugby team to do it, because it's just a game.


(tangential response to something else someone said)
You may dislike Jawaiian music because of its blending of cultural artistic expressions, but is it just because of the Hawaiian part of the mix that this bothers you? The blues is deeply rooted in slave music, but does it offend you that Eric Clapton has made his whole career playing it and mixing it with rock and roll? Did Paul Simon's Graceland bother you just as much? I think that with any art, there is a constant stretching of forms, and the blending of influences makes artistic sense, whether we consider "Hawaiian Supaman" artistic or not.

[TuNnL]

Re: UH Haka

it's ironic that someone like you would make me go fish on a fricking haole search board to find my answers!!!!!!!!

I've been doing it... and I'm still not sure of my answers....

This is just the kind of answer I would expect from a self-proclaimed brainwashed “digital revolution” proponent who through his own lazy self-righteousness, has chosen not to embrace the world of educational resources available to him.

[Palolo Joe]

Re: UH Haka

I bet most local Hawaiians couldn't give as thorough an answer.

Most of us who took Hawaiian history during high school probably could...

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: UH Haka

Manoa, all of those answers are readily available on wikipedia, as well as a multitude of other sites. And coulda woulda shoulda, I wish that you would have written four attempts at answering it, than four whinefests about being related, passing knowledge onto your son, and other pitiful trivialities. You and I aren't related; we have never met. I am kin to your wife. I share blood with your son, but I also do with at least a few other HT members here, so please cut that angle out because its maha'oi.

For real, learn how to fish, ok?

[damontucker]

Re: UH Haka

Manoa, the answer to Puai's first question lays somehwere between 8 and 10, literally. Do your homework. You deserve a D for effort so far.

So who is correct Keanu cause I guess you only get a C ? Between 8 and 10

or 7 and 8? I guess we all need to do our homework!

This is the exact reason why discussion need to happen.... is the exact answer is a difficult one to explain and find answers to...is it 7 or 8?

[damontucker]

Re: UH Haka

Thank you Pua'i!

I'm saving this off board for my future references.

I bet most local Hawaiians couldn't give as thorough an answer. I appreciate that.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: UH Haka

1)how many constitutions are associated with Hawaii government?
Technically 7, but I will count 8:
1840, 1841 (considered one) by KIII
1852 also by KIII
1864 KV
1887 Kalakaua, aka the Bayonnet Constitution
1891-1893 (Queen's Constitution, but this one didn't happen but it should be included, as it sparked the Overthrow)
1894 (Constitution of the Republic of Hawaii)
1900 (Constitution of the T.H. also known as the Organic Act)
1978 (Constitution the State of Hawaii, aka the state constitution)

2)how many Constitutions are associated with the Kingdom of Hawaii?
Four, if we don't count the proposed one of 1891

3)Which Ali'i signed those Constitutions?
answered above

4)Who signed the last two Constitutions?
Dole and Waihe'e (as President of the Constitutional Convention, under Gov Ariyoshi)

5)How many governments have ruled Hawaii since 1778?
Four

Kingdom of Hawaii
Republic of Hawaii
Territory of Hawaii
State of Hawaii

The first being an independent nation, the 2nd being provisional independent nation with the aim of converting into becoming a US territory, and the latter two under the US.

[Keanu]

Re: UH Haka

Thanks keanu for your input... so what's the big secret?

I've no secret, unless you are talking about the answer.

[damontucker]

Re: UH Haka

Manoa, the answer to Puai's first question lays somehwere between 8 and 10, literally. Do your homework. You deserve a D for effort so far.

Thanks keanu for your input... so what's the big secret?

[Keanu]

Re: UH Haka

Manoa, the answer to Puai's first question lays somehwere between 8 and 10, literally. Do your homework. You deserve a D for effort so far.

[damontucker]

Re: UH Haka

Manoa:

"It is not the possession of truth, but the success which attends the seeking after it, that enriches the seeker and brings happiness to him."

-Max Planck


Or, this, about Socrates and his Socratic teaching method:


Miulang

Manoa, cut it out. You brought this on yourself (review your question in post #21). Instead of me telling, and telling, and explaining, it is better for you to find out for yourself and the very questions I asked you to research will provide you that foundation.

However, if you've not the inclination, well you are a grown man. Decide for yourself.

I'm sorry Pua'i the internet has only been around for so many years...

seeking knowledge from someone I trust is much more helpful than random links.

If you choose to keep your knowledge from me...then that is less that I can pass on to my own son that has Hawaiian in him...

I appreciate what you have expressed...and it's not your perogative to share your knowledge with anyone.... I mean frick... people pay good money to learn Hawaiian customs and Culture... .... I'm just trying to beat it out of you!

Pua'i.. .mahalo... Damon

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: UH Haka

Manoa, cut it out. You brought this on yourself (review your question in post #21). Instead of me telling, and telling, and explaining, it is better for you to find out for yourself and the very questions I asked you to research will provide you that foundation.

However, if you've not the inclination, well you are a grown man. Decide for yourself.

[Miulang]

Re: UH Haka

Manoa:

"It is not the possession of truth, but the success which attends the seeking after it, that enriches the seeker and brings happiness to him."

-Max Planck


Or, this, about Socrates and his Socratic teaching method:

Socrates believed that there were different kinds of knowledge, important and trivial. He acknowledges that most of us know many "trivial" things. He states that the craftsman possesses important knowledge, the practice of his craft, but this is important only to himself, the craftsman. But this is not the important knowledge that Socrates is referring to. The most important of all knowledge is "how best to live." He posits that this is not easily answered, and most people live in shameful ignorance regarding matters of ethics and morals. (Brickhouse & Smith 1, p.30)

Through his method of powerfully questioning his students, he seeks to guide them to discover the subject matter rather than simply telling them what they need to know. The goals of education are to know what you can; and, even more importantly, to know what you do not know.

Miulang

[damontucker]

Re: UH Haka

Pua'i is there a reason that you won't discuss this publicly?

I'm curious... Your asking me to do homework for an entire board...when this subject was supposed to be about the Haka...

What is so Hush Hush??? I can't get this own info from my wife, I can't get it from her Ohana...and Now you telling me to do homework on it...

Is it that bitter of a thing that people don't feel the need or reason to discuss this?

I'm tired of researching stuff on Haole sites... can you show me the direct link or something? and I can read from there?

Gardangit Pua'i... I love you ... but you frustrate me like a tease to the Hawaiian society...

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: UH Haka

No. Quit whining and get back to doing your homework.