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  • #31
    Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

    Originally posted by 68-eldo View Post
    So let me get this straight. A proper transmission flush includes a filter change. To change the filter you have to remove the pan. So the mechanic disconnects the transmission line going to the radiator and while the engine is running pumps the old fluid out and the new fluid in. Then he removes the pan (dumping the new fluid just put in) changes the filter and refills with more new fluid?

    Seems like a waste to me.

    I just read the recommended maintenance schedule for the wife’s ’02 Buick and there is no factory recommended transmission flush. Why am I not surprised? Or is 2002 way back in the olden days when cars were built like tanks?

    Does the Owner’s manual for your car recommend a transmission flush?
    Everyone knows that it in order to keep a car warranty valid (whether it is the original bumper-to-bumper or extended warranty), you need to perform certain minimal maintenance jobs listed in the service schedule booklet, like changing the engine oil every 3,000 miles and so forth. But the key word here is MINIMAL. I guess if you are only leasing the car or if you only plan to hold on to the car for 5 years or so, then yeah. The minimal maintenance will probably be good enough.

    But if you plan to hold on to the car for the long term (5 years, 10 years or even longer), you should do more than the *minimal* maintenance, wherever possible and practical.

    I'll give you an example. I have a couple of Ford vehicles currently: a 2006 Mustang GT and a '94 Mercury Cougar XR7, both with a 4.6L V8. In the owner's manual for both cars, they recommend using 87 octane unleaded gas. That's the minimal octane that is needed for those cars to operate properly,.... at least when they are new. But while I could probably get away with using the cheap, minimal octane gas for the first few years, what's going to happen later, when the Ford warranty expires? I'll tell you. You're eventually going to hear knocks and pings when you go uphill. The cylinder walls in your engine will turn wavy instead of being smooth. I hear the same sad story from so many car owners who thought they were doing the smart thing by following the minimal specifications from the manufacturer instead of exceeding it, like in the case of gasoline octane.

    The same thing too with your transmission. Just because the factory maintenance schedule doesn't list flushes on the "to do" list doesn't mean your tranny doesn't need it. If you want to properly maintain it so that it will last over 100-200K+ miles without slipping and poor performance, you need to do the flush.

    This brings up these questions: Why doesn't GM's maintenance schedule tell you to do tranny flushes on your Buick? Why does Ford tell me to fill my V8 Stang with 87 octane? It's the MONEY, my friend. Frankly speaking, the car manufacturers don't care what happens to their cars after the warranty expires. Those companies just want to keep selling cars. The more they sell, the more money they make. If the cars they sell break down after 5-10 years, they don't care. Ford doesn't make any money if I keep my Cougar and Stang running strong 20-30 years from now. Only way they make money off me again is if I buy another car from them. And GM is no different.

    Are you starting to get the picture?

    If you plan to keep your cars for the long term and you want to know a "better than minimal" maintenance routine that will keep your vehicle in tip-top shape, I would recommend talking to and developing a relationship with a knowledgeable and trusted mechanic.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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    • #32
      Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

      Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
      You're eventually going to hear knocks and pings when you go uphill. The cylinder walls in your engine will turn wavy instead of being smooth.
      You actually believe that? And you think going to higher octane will fix/prevent it?

      Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
      Are you starting to get the picture?
      Yep, done here.
      "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone."
      Ayn Rand

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      • #33
        Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

        Originally posted by 68-eldo View Post
        You actually believe that? And you think going to higher octane will fix/prevent it?
        First off, get it straight. I never said that high octane gas will "fix" any problems caused by low octane gas.

        But I know that high octane gas will prevent engine damage caused by low octane fuel. I've compared similar mileage 4.6L engines where one has used 87 octane and the other 91/92. And the one with 87 has significantly noticeable damage to cylinder walls caused by the pistons slapping against it. (This results in the pinging sound.)

        And I know that's not an isolated observation. I've talked to multiple mechanics who say the same thing about the long-term effects of low octane gas.

        Originally posted by 68-eldo View Post
        Yep, done here.
        Whatever. If other people reading this benefits from this, that's fine with me. The knowledge that the automaker's maintenance schedule is only a minimal one, designed to keep your car running at least through the life of the warranty. But if you plan to keep your car for many years beyond that, that maintenance schedule is truly an inadequate one.

        I looked through my Cougar's maintenance booklet again. Hmmmm, it doesn't tell me to flush my transmission, flush my brake fluid, change my fuel filter, or even to spray silicone on the rubber and plastic parts. And you think that it is a smart thing to ignore all that, just because Ford doesn't list it in their maintenance booklet?
        Last edited by Frankie's Market; April 20, 2008, 09:55 AM.
        This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

          Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
          First off, get it straight. I never said that high octane gas will "fix" any problems caused by low octane gas.

          But I know that high octane gas will prevent engine damage caused by low octane fuel. I've compared similar mileage 4.6L engines where one has used 87 octane and the other 91/92. And the one with 87 has significantly noticeable damage to cylinder walls caused by the pistons slapping against it. (This results in the pinging sound.)
          The manufacturer specifications for my car, which has a 3.1L V-6, specifies to use regular unleaded 87 octane fuel, so that's specifically what I use (whew, I can use the "cheapest" gas!), no more than that.

          I know there are some vehicles that have engines specifically designed to use higher (89 or 92) octane fuel, so if your car is one of those (my aunt's Volvo is one of those), I wouldn't use any less, or I can indeed see how that could damage the cylinders and heads and/or valve train due to improper detonation.

          There's some interesting information about fuel octane and engine performance in this Wiki Answers article.
          sigpic The Tasty Island

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          • #35
            Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

            Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
            In the owner's manual for both cars, they recommend using 87 octane unleaded gas. That's the minimal octane that is needed for those cars to operate properly,.... at least when they are new. But while I could probably get away with using the cheap, minimal octane gas for the first few years, what's going to happen later, when the Ford warranty expires? I'll tell you. You're eventually going to hear knocks and pings when you go uphill. The cylinder walls in your engine will turn wavy instead of being smooth.
            Hooo boy. Where to begin? I've never dealt with a Found On Road Dead , but being Detroit technology, they can't be that much different then a Chevy. They are both bigger block engines unlike the off shore stuff.

            But if you are running the correct octane gas and get pinging, something is wrong with the car. It doesn't matter how old it is. Pinging is not a normal progression of aging.

            To start with, any car built in the last 20 years has a computer and a knock sensor to adjust the ignition timing to avoid pinging. So small things are automatically adjusted for.

            Yes, pinging can damage the engine, but I've never heard of the cylinder walls going "wavy". A hole in the piston is the usual horror story.

            Using the specified octane rating is not going to hurt the car. That's what it's designed to use. Not using a top tier fuel can lead to problems. Like carbon buildup which in turn can cause pinging. But that's different and has nothing to do with octane. Higher octane can cover up a problem, but that's not the same a preventing it.

            A good mechanic should be able to diagnose the problem and fix it. (And the fix is not a overhaul.) It's most likely something like cleaning the engine out or bringing the base timing into spec.


            Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
            This brings up these questions: Why doesn't GM's maintenance schedule tell you to do tyranny flushes on your Buick? Why does Ford tell me to fill my V8 Stang with 87 octane? It's the MONEY, my friend. Frankly speaking, the car manufacturers don't care what happens to their cars after the warranty expires.
            Oh, yes they do care. They need to make sure the care lives a normal life span. Because if it doesn't they word will get around and they'll sell fewer cars.

            But let's continue on this a bit. Just what company IS telling us to do a flush? It's the ones selling this stuff? Gee, I wonder where their profit motive is.


            Joe, to answer your question, I think you need to hunt down a good automotive forum. Maybe even one that specializes in your car. Because there may be quirks or weaknesses specific to that brand or model that affect the answer.
            Last edited by GeckoGeek; April 21, 2008, 12:29 AM.

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            • #36
              Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
              Using the specified octane rating is not going to hurt the car. That's what it's designed to use.
              Whatever you want to think. Experience I've heard from other drivers who use 87 (or even 89) octane gas for 7-8+ years, even when it is manufacturer recommended, tells me otherwise. Many of them eventually begin to knock and ping with continual use of low octane gas, even when all other maintenance is done.

              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
              Oh, yes they do care. They need to make sure the care lives a normal life span. Because if it doesn't they word will get around and they'll sell fewer cars.
              Hehe! Now it's my turn to say, "Hooo boy. Where to begin?"

              But I won't even start. It's pointless for me to carry on any longer on this. I've said what I have to say, and I'll let it stand at that. If anyone wants to listen to you and believe that the manufacturer's 87 octane recommendations and minimal maintenance schedule will keep their car in tip-top shape past the warranty expiration, that's up to them and it's their car. They'll find out who's right when they get the bad news and the big bill from the mechanic.

              Oh, and just one last thing for those folks who are naive enough to think that manufacturer's minimal maintenance recommendations should always be followed to the letter. Anyone who bought Ford F150 trucks with the platinum spark plugs were told by the automaker they could go 100,000 miles between tune-ups. Apparently, that was a big selling point for truck buyers who were too lazy and too damn cheap to be more dilligent when it came to maintenance. Well, for those folks who were gullible enough to fall for that maintenance recommendation sales gimmick and not perform that first tune-up until the odometer hit 100K, a lot of them experienced a very rude awakening when they went to the shop and found out that one or more of their spark plugs were stuck in the cylinder head, due to age, heat and corrosion. And what was supposed to be a routine tune-up turned into a complete engine tear down! For those unlucky enough not to be covered under warranty, the owners would have to foot the big bill. And even for those who were still covered, they would have to endure the time and inconvenience of not having their vehicle.

              So let the buyer beware. Be akamai enough not to blindly take everything the automaker/dealer tells you as gospel.
              Last edited by Frankie's Market; April 21, 2008, 02:06 AM.
              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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              • #37
                Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                The octane pretty much determines the duration of the explosion. A high octane fuel is used primarily in High compression motors whereas lower octane can be safely run in low compression motors.

                That said if you have a high mileage car with compression issues, you'd probably be better off using a lower octane gas which has a quicker rate of combustion because a high octane with a longer sustained explosion will probably result in increased blow by thru the piston rings during the combustion cycle.

                My BMW which when new ran on high octane but because of it's age, it actually runs more powerful and better mileage using 89-octane rather than 92-octane.

                As for pinging that can be caused by pre-detonation because of the use of lower octane in a high octane engine and the timing unable to keep up with load demands.

                If you're pistons are slapping anything that's bad news for both the piston and the cylinder walls. But it should never be from the piston head slapping the intake or exhaust valves. That would occur because of extremely bad timing of an interference motor with the use of high-compression heads. The result would be catastrophic with the valve stems being bent.

                But getting back OT tranny fluid like any fluid gets contaminated or worn out over time. Because the torque converter in the bell housing of the auto tranny houses some of the tranny fluid, a pan removal simply won't get all of the contaminated or worn fluid out. A flush will by literally sucking it out.

                Another but tedious way of completely removing all of the old tranny fluid is to keep diluting the old fluid from the torque converter with new fluid and keep filling and draining it until the dilution is so low to the point where you are practically running with over 99% fresh fluid. That can be tedious and expensive.

                Remember in a transmission there is a lot of metal on metal action going on. The transmission fluid serves both as a hydraulic fluid to actuate the shift valves as well as lubricate the shift gears inside. The stuff wears out and needs to be replaced periodically just like your oil.

                And a quick tip on replacing spark plugs, I use anti-seize thread compound on them to prevent them from corroding onto the cylinder heads. On today's cylinder heads made out of magnesium or aluminum, screwing a steel spark plug will result in cathodic action to occur causing corrosion. A good high temperature rated anti-seize compound such as a copper formulated version will resist and disperse heat better than the standard nickle-based anti-seize formulation.
                Last edited by craigwatanabe; April 21, 2008, 02:49 AM.
                Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                • #38
                  Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                  Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                  Many of them eventually begin to knock and ping with continual use of low octane gas, even when all other maintenance is done.
                  Which indicates the need for corrective maintenance, also called a repair. Just as you say you can't get by on minimum maintenance, I say you can't ignore the symptoms of something going wrong. And things do go wrong. Things that the maintenance manual didn't predict.

                  Perhaps the knock sensor has become defective. Or the engine is suffering from carbon build-up.

                  But since you're the one claiming that use of specified fuel will lead to pinging, what's going wrong? What does the specified octane do to the engine that leads to pinging? I seriously doubt that the compression goes up beyond specifications - which is why higher octane is required.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                    And a quick tip on replacing spark plugs, I use anti-seize thread compound on them to prevent them from corroding onto the cylinder heads.
                    I know I already said that I would no longer post in this thread, but I had to reply to this point.

                    Yes, you could use anti-seize compound to make it easier to take out the plugs later. But you need to be very CAREFUL if you do. First of all, use of the compound could reduce the friction needed to torque the plug back in correctly. Secondly, anti-seize compound can cause detonation.

                    So if you do use anti-seize on the spark plugs, be careful and go really easy on it. Don't go overboard and make sure there's no compound left on the exposed part of the cylinder head thread. And then you have to check again later to make sure your plugs are adequately secured.

                    Of course, Craig is probably aware of this, so this warning is not for him. But it is a heads-up for those who are not aware of the potential hazards of anti-seize. It can solve one problem, but could create another if you're not careful.

                    My recommendation? I wouldn't chance it with the anti-seize. If you don't overtighten and you don't wait too long between changes, then you're not going to have the stuck spark plug problem in the first place.

                    Yikes, there I go again with telling folks to perform more maintenance and to take better care of their car than what the manufacturer recommends.
                    Last edited by Frankie's Market; April 21, 2008, 10:22 AM.
                    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                      Well yeah, you don't go overboard on the anti-seize. Just a dab is enough as the metal to metal contact leaves very little for space between threads.

                      How does anti-seize compound cause detonation?
                      Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                        Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                        Well yeah, you don't go overboard on the anti-seize. Just a dab is enough as the metal to metal contact leaves very little for space between threads.

                        How does anti-seize compound cause detonation?
                        Heard that mentioned by George Nitta on his Automotive 101 radio show. I don't know the why's and how's of it. I guess if you are really curious, best thing would be to ask him directly.

                        And speaking of George Nitta (one of the most respected and knowledgeable mechanics in the state), he also is a firm believer in using 92 octane gas in ALL cars, no matter what the automakers recommend. And if you want to know his reasons, just tune in to his radio program. It is a topic that comes up almost every week. Go to:

                        http://www.georgenitta.com/
                        Last edited by Frankie's Market; April 21, 2008, 05:22 PM.
                        This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                          craigwatanabe you have gained points in my book. Not that that counts for much. Yes use anti-seize when installing any parts on the engine especially exhaust manifold bolts and anyplace you put aluminum and steel together. The only way anti-seize can cause detonation is if a blob gets inside the cylinder and does not burn off completely leaving a carbon deposit.

                          As for George Nitta watch out for him. I am not fond of his endorsing putting moth balls in the gas tank. This website and this website also do not recommend the practice. It can be harmful and does little if any good. Do a Google search on that.
                          "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone."
                          Ayn Rand

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                          • #43
                            Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                            I know I said I was done on this thread but this statement bothers me.

                            Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                            Whatever. If other people reading this benefits from this, that's fine with me.
                            A long time ago I learned that you can not (for example) explain to someone how a satellite can orbit the earth if that person believes the earth is flat. At that point discussion is futile.

                            I too hope the readers of this thread learn something. I just hope it is not that using the gasoline with the factory recommended octane rating will cause your cylinder walls to get wavy.

                            40+ years working on cars, hanging out with other car guys and more recently hanging out in car related forums I have never heard that the cylinder walls will go wavy if you use the gas recommended by the factory.

                            Back OT the car related forums I have been hanging out in have also had this discussion on transmission flushing. Like this forum there are a hand full of people that say “yes it is an important maintenance procedure” There are a few people that scream “No way! It will blow out the seals and do other damage to the transmission” And they follow up with accounts of their experience of the transmission failing after only a few miles after a transmission flush.

                            The majority feel the transmission flush is more of a wallet flush. But it has little other harmful effects and may in some cases be helpful.

                            If you really want find out more about it do a Google search.
                            "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone."
                            Ayn Rand

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                            • #44
                              Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                              Originally posted by 68-eldo View Post
                              As for George Nitta watch out for him. I am not fond of his endorsing putting moth balls in the gas tank.
                              Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

                              But if you are right about Nitta dispensing bad advice, then Lord knows how the man has managed to own and operate a successful auto repair business on Oahu for over 40 years. Usually, con artists and charlatans don't stay in business for very long on this island if they give shoddy advice and rip people off. Yet Nitta's garage is going stronger than ever, with many of his customers loyally patronzing his services for decades.

                              But I'm supposed to believe that your opinion trumps all that? Hmmm.

                              How about the folks at UH, who used George for many years as an instructor in a car care and maintenance class? Or KITV news, who utilized his expertise to produce a series of car care segments? Am I supposed to believe that George pulled the wool over their eyes too?

                              If you're going to disparage a respected mechanic like Nitta, you must have some pretty impressive professional credentials to put on the table.
                              Last edited by Frankie's Market; April 22, 2008, 03:00 AM.
                              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Is flushing your transmission a good thing?

                                In every industry there's a phananama known as "old wives tails". It's myths that have been perpetuated for ages. It may have been an accepted practice at one time, but things have changed. (Like the chemical that go into mothballs).

                                Just because they are good at their job doesn't mean they haven't bought in a OWT. You'd think the better the mechanic, the fewer OWT he's still belive in, but ..... I'd judge each piece of advice on it's own and check it with others. In this case it should be a simple matter to look around on the net and look at the various explanations given by others to decide if this is good advice or not.

                                Usually the key to understanding what's good and what's OWT is to see who has the more complete explanation. If Nitta just says "it boosts octane" but someone else goes into the chemicals behind it, who is more accurate?

                                For example the claim that you should run a higher octane. Right now I'll toss that in the "claimed to be observed" bucket because there's no explanation. It might have really happened, but there's another explanation for it. I don't know if it's still true, but at one time I think higher grades of gasoline had a better additive package. That additive package could easily be the reason one car doesn't get carbon buildup and doesn't start pinging. It would result in the same observation.

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