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  • Car dealer tricks

    Okay, I'm in the market for a late model used vehicle and I see some financial "tricks" used by car dealers to increase their bottom-line profit on each transaction. It's been reputed that dealerships actually make more money on used car sales than new car deals. A lot of that is because it's difficult to determine how much a particular unit actually costs the dealer as he has ample opportunity to "steal" it as a trade-in.

    The terms "used," "pre-owned," or "certified pre-owned" (CPO) are mere semantics. CPO can actually add to the price of the car. Dealers tell you about the "warranty" for buying from them rather than a private party - this is because the state mandates up to a 90-day/4000 mile limited warranty on all vehicles sold by a dealer, assuming that the remaining factory warranty is less than that. Then, the F&I manager tries to sell you an extended warranty on a used car. This happened with my current "wheels," which actually already had a transferrable extended warranty already in effect!

    The areas of concern are the "fees" added to the price of the car. We can't do anything about the G.E.T. of 4.712% that goes to the state, but what about "documentation fees" ($200-275) for the paperwork taken to DMV to transfer ownership and "car registration" ($150 and up, depending on the weight of the car). Let's take a look at these.

    "Documentation fee" - it costs $10.00 to transfer title, but that may have been increased nominally in recent years. But NOT up to the minimum $200 dealers charge. Many times, when the dealer takes the car either in trade or an outright purchase, it is COMMON for them not to actually take title. They keep the certificate of title signed over by the former owner and process it with the new buyers name added in as though the old owner sold it directly to the new owner.

    "Registration fee" - it is highly likely that the former owner had re-registered the car to the next renewal date. Let's assume that the current registration was paid in October 2009. If you pay the $200 fee to the dealer, you will find that the DMV will send you a renewal notice for October 2010. That $200 you forked over is pure profit for the dealer.

    One of the vehicles I'm looking at is from a private party. No G.E.T., no documentation fee, no registration fee. I'll take the certificate of title in and transfer it myself at any satellite city hall (Thank you, Mayor Fasi).

    With the dealers, I'll take the price I'm willing to pay, add the G.E.T., and offer that sum as an "out-the-door" (OTD) price. The dealer can manipulate his sale price if he wants to add in the "doc fee" and "registration" on the contract, but if the OTD price doesn't increase, it won't matter to me.

    I made an offer of $23K OTD on one car and the salesman said: I'VE GOT GOOD NEWS. WE'RE ONLY $300 APART." WRONG! He presented $23,337 + FEES ($24,917 OTD). That's over $1900 apart ..... NO DEAL!

  • #2
    Re: Car dealer tricks ........

    Originally posted by oceanpacific View Post
    One of the vehicles I'm looking at is from a private party. No G.E.T., no documentation fee, no registration fee. I'll take the certificate of title in and transfer it myself at any satellite city hall (Thank you, Mayor Fasi).
    Haven't used a car dealer since 1981, and Craigslist/AutoTrader make the whole process a lot easier than it's ever been.

    Car dealers provide a service that people must be willing to pay for... because they sure are paying for it.
    Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
    Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
    We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
    Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.

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    • #3
      Re: Car dealer tricks

      Sales, either new or used, are a manini part of a dealers profits. They make more from their cut of the financing (they don't like it when you pay cash), extended warranties, etc., than from the sale of the car itself. But that's just beer money to a big dealership compared to what the service department makes. I know for a fact that one big dealer on Oahu generates a whopping 85% of their income from the service department.
      To make matters worse for we consumers, their service advisers work on commission. Obviously that's incentive for them to suggest/force us to get work done and parts replaced that really aren't necessary.
      And check out the markup on those parts. Take your repair invoice to a NAPA auto parts store and compare off-the-shelf prices to what the dealer charged you. (And dealers pay a lot less for parts than the retail prices, obviously.)
      I know one dealer employee who had their own car worked on, for just a minor problem. They were quoted over $400, but the service adviser hadn't realized they were a fellow employee. The price dropped to under $100.
      .
      .

      That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Car dealer tricks

        To deal with private owners, you need to get your ducks in order: cash or pre-arranged financing; legal title in order; insurance in order; no outstanding traffic tickets (you may not be able to transfer title unless the citations are "cleared"); etc. There's no warranty in private party sales, so you have to know cars. You'd be wise to have the car checked out by a competent and trusted mechanic. The private party car I'm looking at has a clean CAR-FAX report which includes service records (not all CAR-FAX reports have it).

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        • #5
          Re: Car dealer tricks

          Holy crap this was another long winded post sorry in advanced. BTW a CARFAX report only reports on work done by shops that enter that VIN into their database. It won't show work done by private parties that do the work themselves or pocket the insurance monies instead of getting it fixed. Buyer beware and bring a trusted mechanic to look at the car. Drive it and bring it to a shop where it can be hoisted up and inspected underneath it's carriage for hidden damage. If the seller refuses, walk away. A car dealership cannot refuse this offer, it's the law. Anyway on with my long post...

          The state-mandated warranty provided by used car dealers depends on mileage of the vehicle. Some may be as little as 30-days if the mileage is excessive. Some are listed as As-Is.

          IT is true that car dealerships make more money by "Holding Gross" on used vehicles. But it depends on where that car dealership got that car from? If on the neighbor islands the license plate is local to that county most likely it was a trade in so sticker price will be very high (if late model) because the dealership has to assume the loan when it's traded in.

          If the license plate is from another county (other island) then it was most likely bought from an auto dealer auction and the wholesale price is lower. Here on the Big Island it's not uncommon to find many many Oahu license plates running around Hilo or Kona with used car dealer license plate holders in place.

          If you can buy from a private seller you'll get a better price simply because there is virtually no overhead and the seller is motivated to sell most likely because they are deep into debt with the bank and need to unload it before it gets repossessed.

          But buying from a private seller has it's drawbacks as well and there are more exceptions than common-place where the car is a gem of a deal.

          Buying from a dealership implies the dealership followed FTC rules and regulations so they will be upfront with all aspects of the sale. Buyer beware when it comes to the fine print on this part because as shady as it may seem, all relevant information pertaining to the sale is written in black and white and mandated by the FTC that the salesman note those items to you BEFORE you sign. If you sign the forms you indicate you understood the sale.

          What you get from all that is a legal document regarding the sale of that vehicle to you. With a private seller, any problem with that vehicle is yours once you make that purchase with no recourse.

          If a person is selling you a car because they bought a new car, one good reason why there was no trade in was simply because the trade in value was lower than what you could sell it on the outside...or the vehicle wasn't worth the trade in allowances for that new vehicle.

          I sold a used car to a woman (2004 Subaru Forrester) and she wanted to use her 1986 Toyota Camrey as trade. The paint was peeling off, rust everywhere, dents galore, bald tires, leaking tranny and it smelled like the dumpster in a back alley. When I did the Kelly Black book trade analysis on her car there was no value in it. ZERO! It ran but barely. Blown Head gasket, water in oil, smell of antifreeze out of the tailpipe when I started the car. Speedo didn't work nor did the odometer so mileage was stuck at over 240,000 miles. Water temp gauge didn't work, I guess that's why the head blew.

          Anyway I felt so bad for her because she thought she could use it as a trade in. Right there I bargained with "The Sales Manager in the other room" to let her have the car with another $500 discount and let her keep the car. He said it's coming out of my commission on the sale of the Forrester. I shrugged and said I'll sell another car to someone else to make up for it. Since I told my sales manager that accepting that car would mean we would have to figure out a way to dispose of it, costing us more money that it was worth. He agreed, I kept my commission, she drove away in a newer, guaranteed working vehicle that was safe to operate at a price she was okay with. That's how I sold cars, with common sense, integrity and at times at a loss.

          We kept the bottom line cost to that woman fully exposed and during the negotiative process those "Hidden" fees were listed in the final offer so she knew exactly what she was paying for when she signed. She came back and bought another car for her son from me because of that openness.

          Not all used car dealers or salesmen/women use tricks to sell cars. Tricks to me is slight of hand, and according to the Federal Trade Commission, is illegal. If you find a salesman selling you a car illegally you have the right to sue or demand a refund, it's the law! But car dealerships aren't in business to break laws. It is up to the consumer to educate themselves on the practices of buying cars. I was a shrewd car buyer before I sold cars. Stick to your price no matter what car the dealership wants to sell you. And remember if you can only afford beer, don't go asking to test drive the champagne. It's only fair you don't waste anybody's time. Four hours with a car salesman looking at stuff you can't afford is not being fair to someone who's time is made only on commission sales. I spent 9-hours with another lady. She wanted a certain car at a certain price. Eight hours later when I finally was able to get my sales manager to agree to this loss with the hope of winning her referral business to her friends and family, she told me she was tired and said to forget it. She even kept my Parker Pen I handed her when she was ready to sign! $28,500 vehicle for $19,500. Below MSRP, and wholesale and with the 60-days on the lot, the bank's dealer center was charging our dealership interest on this new vehicle at that point. We were going to lose money on this one as well as no commission as well but we were trying to win her business by bending that far over on a gamble that we'd win her loyalty with us.

          Now tell me who lacked integrity in that deal. It happens and unfortunately for every horror story you hear about car dealerships, there are a lot more about customers demanding gold for the price of tin, getting it then walking away thinking it was all a game.

          The salesman works for hours and gets nothing. Is that fair? It's not like a car sales associate sells cars everyday. If you can sell one car every other day in a good market you're selling OKAY. You work 11-hours a day and sell one car every other day. Commission? maybe $500 on a car but you work like a dog to get it. The highest commission I got was $2750 on a $30,000 used vehicle simply because it was old stock and the dealership had incentives to move this speciality vehicle off the lot quickly because interest charges were racking up from the auto dealer center of the bank that sold us the loan to purchase the trade in for another new vehicle. But that's an exception.

          Commission sales is a tough balancing act between holding gross profits for the company and earning a meaningful paycheck. Some months you go with less than what minimal wage would get you working only part time. You work 11-hour days six days a week and some months you get nothing. In the good old days customers came flocking with cash, nowdays they come skeptical with bad credit and they still want Champagne served on a silver platter and they lie about their debt to asset ratio to fudge their financial position. Then they complain three months later when they can't afford the monthly payments they agreed to based on their fianancial picture they painted.

          I'm upfront when I sold cars both new and used. All I asked for was the same with my clients. Everything told me is to be taken as God's truth. I'm not going to sit there at the table and tell the customer they're lying all the while they're not being truthful about their own finances, then gripe about it when they can't make the payments. I have told a young couple that from what they told me they couldn't afford the car they wanted. They got upset and walked out. What did they want me to tell them, "sure you can afford it, you'll find a way" and get their hopes up just to be dashed later? That's not how I operate nor do the many car sales associates that work in this business. We could get fired for making false statements like any employee in any job.
          Last edited by craigwatanabe; April 23, 2010, 03:10 PM.
          Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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          • #6
            Re: Car dealer tricks

            Car dealers aren't the only ones who can play tricks.

            The salesperson doesn't have any say on the final selling price. That decision is made solely by the sales manager. The manager gets a percentage of the profit made on each car, so it's in his best interest to sell it for the highest price you'll pay. Of course, you'll never actually meet him during the negotiation, so he bounces the salesperson off you to play his little mind games.

            You're not negotiating with the salesperson, you're negotiating w/ the sales manager. Sure, the salesperson also gets a cut, but since he doesn't have any real authority, he can just play the role of uninvolved representative. There are all kinds of ways a salesperson could talk his manager into lowering the price, but they don't necessarily want to burn their best options on every customer.

            You need to offer your salesperson -- not the sales manager -- an incentive to get him on your side. This incentive would be just between you two, and the sales manger (or anyone else on the staff) wouldn't need to know. Look at it this way: the salesperson is in the service business, right? His service is to negotiate a deal with his sales manager on your behalf. If you get good service, you tip, right? Better service yields a more generous tip. If you're concerned about any legal issues, you may want to tell him you don't know if tipping is acceptable within his organization, so you'll defer to his judgement. It's also his responsibility to report the tip as income to the IRS, not yours obviously.

            You'd still have to do your research; you have to have some idea of the absolute lowest the sales manager could go. Armed with that info, you could work out a tipping schedule. For example: $100 cash for every $1000 off the price below a certain amount. It would probably be best to work it out ahead of time and simply offer it to your salesperson when you get there. To ensure privacy, it's probably best to discuss it outside in the lot. It might also help to bring some temptingly crisp $100 bills to show him you're serious.

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            • #7
              Re: Car dealer tricks

              I disagree, car sales associates are actually negotiating on the customer's behalf. When a car sales associate comes to the sales manager for the third pencil, meaning the deal isn't solid yet to sign in ink. That's when the sales manager steps in and determines the bottom line.

              As a car sales associate going to the "back room" is no fun on the second run. You are batting for the customer everytime you go back there. BUT before you go back make sure the deal is solid. You don't go back unless you get a promise from the customer that the price you're showing to the sales manager is one that can close the deal. Obviously you don't want to put a price that's too low, the dealership is a business and they do need to make money.

              If you don't bring an acceptable sheet to the sales manager, your job is on the line so you work hard to work with the customer BEFORE you bring anything to the sales manager.

              And you never even suggest tipping a sales associate. Taking money off the sales into your own pocket is not allowed and will get you fired. IT's the next worst thing a sales associate can do next to Curbing (selling on the side). If a sales associate is asked to take a tip, he or she is instructed to kill the deal and report it to their sales manager immediately. FTC prohibits this kind of activity between seller and buyer. The car dealership could lose their license and the sales associate WILL lose their job.
              Last edited by craigwatanabe; April 23, 2010, 03:35 PM.
              Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Car dealer tricks

                Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                FTC prohibits this kind of activity between seller and buyer. The car dealership could lose their license and the sales associate WILL lose their job.
                Ok, so it's the salesperson's risk to take, but could the customer get into hot water?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Car dealer tricks

                  Originally posted by zff View Post
                  Ok, so it's the salesperson's risk to take, but could the customer get into hot water?
                  Only if that customer is doing it deliberately for the sake of reselling that vehicle. Otherwise I doubt it.

                  Once a customer gave me some cash after the sale with no forewarning. It was 9pm, two hours after closing and I hadn't eaten dinner yet so they gave me $20 for something to eat. I reported it to my boss (who also had to stay late to close the deal) he said it wasn't part of the sales agreement so I could legally keep it.

                  I ended up going to the salvation army the next day and buying a 25-cent Hot Wheel car for my boy and donated the rest.
                  Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Car dealer tricks

                    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                    Holy crap this was another long winded post sorry in advanced.
                    Good post.

                    It's also an indication of how broken the new-car sales business has become.
                    Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
                    Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
                    We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
                    Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Car dealer tricks

                      I know a number of people in DMV, some of whom are supervisors. They agree with me that the "registration fees" on used cars sold by dealers is almost never paid to them upon transfer of title whenever the current registration is still in effect.

                      I am not unsympathetic to the plight of commissioned sales people as I have worked that way for 38 years, as of May 1. Nothing is worse than having to deal with the "lookie lews" who are also referred to as "strokers." They look at cars they know they can't afford or qualify for. They should restrict their car buying to the annual auto show.

                      Throughout the past quarter century, I have been in position to refer clients in the market to various car dealers. So far, in the neighborhood of 300 deals in which the sales experience has been a pleasant one at least 95% of the time. The dealers know that they have a 90% chance of closing the deal that day as I've already "pre-qualified" these prospects and prepared them to buy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Car dealer tricks

                        Quite a few times when it's time for the ownership transfer paperwork to be taken down to DMV there are occasions where there are fees applied to the vehicle such as late registration fees or other penalties. A dealership cannot tell until they do the transfer. By then the previous owner has washed their hands with that vehicle in the transfer process. There are handling fees that apply as well. Typically in a dealership there are at least three people that "touch" that trade in before it's sold or sent off to auction. The most important one is the person taking care of all registration and safety check papers. The other two are the sales associate and the sales manager. The sales associate is the last person to ensure all paperwork and decals are current when the customer takes possession.

                        As for "Lookers" we call them tire-kickers. When a customer or "Up" for walk up says they need to talk to their spouse (typically a male looking and pins the excuse on their missing wife) they're called "one-legged deals" because why engage into a negotiation when a significant party is missing? At that point the sales associates asks them to bring them in or get em on the phone. If they hedge, then they weren't serious at all about buying. BUT every UP is a potential customer now or later so a sales associate MUST give them as much time even though the signs tell them the UP is just looking. You blow off a customer because they're just looking, they will not come back when they're ready nor will they advise their friends or family to go their either.

                        BUT as a customer, in all fairness, if all you want to do is to kill time because your car is being fixed across the street, remember this, the sales associate is working on commission only. Their time with you is lost time if a customer really wanting to buy a car is waiting because that sales associate is being courteous with another tire kicker.
                        Last edited by craigwatanabe; April 24, 2010, 10:02 AM.
                        Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Car dealer tricks

                          I know that I've told this story before, but it's time to re-visit it in regard to "documentation fees." My sister bought a new 2004 Acura TL and paid it off within three years. I then arranged for a classmate-client of mine to purchase it with a mere 30,000 miles on the clock. Good deal for everyone.

                          The trouble started when he tried to transfer ownership. It was discovered at the time that the dealer, Pflueger Acura, had registered the transaction as a "leased" vehicle, with American Honda Financial as the actual "owner." So, American Honda needed to sign off on the transfer form.

                          The problem was that her original transaction had NEVER been a lease to begin with. It was an outright purchase, and we had the original sales contract to prove it. Nowhere did it say that it was a lease with either her business or herself personally. The dealership personnel tried to tell my classmate that it was the fault of my sister and me for "not noticing that letters LS were on the registration," indicating it was a lease. THE NERVE OF IT ALL.

                          I told them that was a bunch of BULL-S**T! It was their resposibility to get the car registered correctly. They charged us the $225 "documentation fee" to take care of the paperwork, so the screw-up was totally their fault, not ours. THEY NEVER ADMITTED IT WAS THEIR ERROR.

                          The reason that a dealership does not detect any additional fees is that they often do not take title in their name after taking in the trade or making an outright purchase. They prefer to skip that step and make the transfer from the previous owner to the new owner. Why? To "save" the extra expense ($$$ and time) involved in the transfer by taking themselves out of the equation.

                          My original post was aimed squarely at the vehicle registration fee charged by dealerships on currently registered cars, not the documentation fees. The latter I willingly pay for, the only dispute being how much "doc fees" are as they vary from dealer to dealer.
                          Last edited by oceanpacific; April 26, 2010, 02:08 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Car dealer tricks

                            When she paid it off wasn't the title transferred to her? Did she have clear title to the car when she attempted to sell it? That's an obvious document and one she should have had in her possession when she made that sale.

                            Was this a new vehicle or used? Most car dealers won't lease a used vehicle so it is safe to assume it was a new vehicle where leases are often made.

                            If it was a lease at the end of three years there should have been a balloon payment due as an option to buy or the vehicle is returned to the dealership. If the mileage is low (30,000 after 3-yrs is typically below the limits) there are no mileage charges.

                            If this was in fact a lease there should have been a final payment. What was her down payment on the vehicle when she signed for it? What was her monthly payments like, who did she finance thru and was there a trade in?

                            You've indicated title transfer of vehicles but if this was a new vehicle, the original owner should have been the car dealership. If it was used, it probably wasn't a lease therefore the car should have been papered to your sister at the time of the signing.

                            If your classmate tried to transfer the title at DMV that means he in fact had possession of the Title. Whose name was on that Title paperwork? If it was your sister's, then she is the legal owner of that car and transfer should have been straightforward. If it was the dealership (as you imply) she wouldn't have had ANY Title paperwork in her possession since she wasn't the legal owner thus could not sign anything signifying a transfer of ownership.

                            Something's not right here.

                            Also if the dealership is taking in a trade that is still carrying a loan, the dealership has to buy off that loan. The only way the dealership can do that is to transfer the registration of that vehicle to their name. Most cars stay on the lot a maximum of 60-days but typically only 30 because a bank's auto dealer center will start accruing interest charges after that. After 60-days the dealer typically ships those vehicles off to auction. But at that point the car has to be registered in the auto dealerships name in order to transfer the vehicle to another used car dealer. The previous owner cannot be on title if the car is on the lot for sale, simply because it's not their car anymore.

                            Simply stated a used car for sale cannot sit on a sales lot very long before the dealer must transfer title. A new car simply won't have a previous owner's name on title since it was never sold to a private party.
                            Last edited by craigwatanabe; April 26, 2010, 04:38 PM.
                            Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Car dealer tricks

                              My sister bought a new 2004 Acura TL and paid it off within three years. I then arranged for a classmate-client of mine to purchase it with a mere 30,000 miles on the clock. Good deal for everyone.

                              The trouble started when he tried to transfer ownership. It was discovered at the time that the dealer, Pflueger Acura, had registered the transaction as a "leased" vehicle, with American Honda Financial as the actual "owner." So, American Honda needed to sign off on the transfer form.


                              Okay so this was a new vehicle (sorry for not noticing it). Whether or not it was leased or sold, your sister "paid it off within three years" so that tells me this automobile was purchased on a loan and not an "outright purchase". Because it was on a loan your sister is the "Registered" owner, however because financing was done thru American Honda Financial, they are the real owners of the vehicle until the final payment according to DMV.

                              The problem was that her original transaction had NEVER been a lease to begin with. It was an outright purchase, and we had the original sales contract to prove it. Nowhere did it say that it was a lease with either her business or herself personally. The dealership personnel tried to tell my classmate that it was the fault of my sister and me for "not noticing that letters LS were on the registration," indicating it was a lease. THE NERVE OF IT ALL.

                              I told them that was a bunch of BULL-S**T! It was their resposibility to get the car registered correctly. They charged us the $225 "documentation fee" to take care of the paperwork, so the screw-up was totally their fault, not ours. THEY NEVER ADMITTED IT WAS THEIR ERROR.


                              If it was a lease according to Honda, then there should have been a balloon payment at the end somewhere in the thousands of dollars, was there a balloon payment at the end of the loan? If there wasn't a balloon payment chances are it was a standard loan agreement to purchase. Was this car for "...her business"? If so a lease would have been the right way to finance this vehicle as the lease payments can be written off instead of mileage deductions. If she did write them off as a legitimate business expense during the course of the three years of payments, she new exactly that this was a lease agreement from the beginning.

                              As for properly registering the car correctly, the car was properly registered since it was in their name because the purchase was on a loan. They charged you $225 because they had to transfer the car to her name. Documentation Fees aren't just DMV fees, it includes the cost of employees to track, maintain, and transfer her vehicle during the loan duration and at the end. That costs money. "THEY NEVER ADMITTED IT WAS THEIR ERROR" simply because there was no error committed.

                              The reason that a dealership does not detect any additional fees is that they often do not take title in their name after taking in the trade or making an outright purchase. They prefer to skip that step and make the transfer from the previous owner to the new owner. Why? To "save" the extra expense ($$$ and time) involved in the transfer by taking themselves out of the equation.

                              What does this have to do with your sister's purchase of a brand new Acura? The reason why they often do not take title in their name after taking in the trade is because they have ten days to do so and typically used vehicles taken in on trade won't sit that long on a lot before being snapped up by a customer.

                              On an outright purchase of a trade in, they MUST assume title because they are the new owners, not the customer that traded it in. How can they buy the loan from the bank's auto dealer center if they don't transfer title. Just like you cannot buy a used car until the loan on that car is settled with the bank and that typically means transfer of title.

                              Trade-ins that don't have a loan can sit for 10-days before the dealership must assume title.

                              As for skipping a step for transferring ownership, the dealership is doing the customer a service if title is still on the previous owner. Someone has to pay for title transfer. When you buy a used car from a dealership, they stand in line at DMV to do that work, not the customer. The dealership doesn't sell a vehicle to a customer then tell them they have to register it, the dealership does it for them...at a cost.

                              The $225 Doc fees you stated are for new vehicles. If there are documentation fees for used vehicles that's typically because there either are or were penalties associated with that vehicle or the registration was due already. Other costs include handling fees that include the cost of doing business in selling and transferring ownership to the customer.

                              My original post was aimed squarely at the vehicle registration fee charged by dealerships on currently registered cars, not the documentation fees. The latter I willingly pay for, the only dispute being how much "doc fees" are as they vary from dealer to dealer

                              This is all about documentation fees. They vary as you stated simply because not all dealerships pay their employees or use the same rate schedules to handle documentation fees. Not all Honda dealers charge the same doc fees either, "they vary" as you stated.

                              As for Registration fees, someone has to pay for it. When a new vehicle comes into the lot for the first time off the Matson ship, it has to be registered. That is a cost that is carried thru to the customer. If Honda didn't charge you the registration fee, you would have to go down to DMV and do it yourself and pay for it anyway.

                              If it's a used vehicle, yes the title can be reflective of the previous owner, however it is the dealership that stands in line at DMV to take care of transfer of ownership. Whether it's a previous owner or the dealership, someone has to stand in line at DMV to do the work. And usually if there are large "doc" fees for the sale of a used vehicle, it is because there were outstanding penalties associated with that vehicle and/or the registration was due and someone had to pay for it. If the dealership paid for it, that is a cost that is transferred to the customer since you would have to have done it anyway once assuming ownership.

                              A private seller will eat that cost or will add it in the sale price of their vehicle, just like they would add the cost of new tires, battery or whatever cost they want to recover.

                              If you had a 1986 piece of junk that was worth scrap metal but it was drivable, and you put $400 worth of new tires and paid for a renewal of the registration fee of $125 (that was ending in a couple of weeks) how much would you sell it for? The price for scrap metal? $400? $525? More? Probably more since you want to recover the effort in purchasing new tires and reregistering the vehicle. Same goes for a dealership. They aren't gonna do it for free, neither would anyone.

                              OP I'm sorry I'm ranting on you but there were some serious questions that needed answering in your accusation of what Honda did to your sister. That's almost character defamation and as a former car sales associate, those accusations were horrific...if true.

                              If car dealerships took on that kind of attitude towards it's customers, they'd be out of business despite the failing economy. There's always two sides to a story and the blame seems so heavily weighted towards Honda for screwing up. Your own statements warranted dissection and response for the truth.

                              The facts as stated are that your sister bought a car on a loan, paid it off and tried selling it before title was transferred. She has to assume title first before she can sell something. You can't sell something you don't own.

                              I hope this clears things up for you and for your sister as buying and selling cars are always pain in the butt things to do, that's why some people incorporate car dealerships when buying new or used vehicles. You come in, buy a car and the dealership takes care of the paperwork, you just gotta pay for that service and it does vary from dealer to dealer.

                              Last edited by craigwatanabe; April 27, 2010, 08:56 AM.
                              Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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