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  • Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

    UNINSURED MOTORISTS RESOLUTIONS GETTING HEARING:

    "The agenda for the Safety, Economic Development and Government Affairs Committee for January 10, 9:00 a.m., at Honolulu Hale, has been posted. We have two resolutions that I have authored getting heard in this committee of which I am the Vice Chair, and Councilwoman Gabbard is the Chair - and in a nutshell - reso 11-307 and reso 11-308 if adopted, would request the State Legislature to allow our county to implement new technology that would make filling up a gas tank for a stolen car more difficult and lessen traffic on our public roads by over 10% without undergoing construction headaches or tax increases." Both resolutions written and introduced by Councilman Tom Berg.

    Since it is the law to have insurance on most motor vehicles and possibly 10% do not, I think more should be done to correct that problem.
    It costs all other motorists in 'uninsured motorist' fees or actually having to sue an uninsured motorist for damages.
    You can read the resolutions in the links above. And give your comments here.
    Last edited by Menehune Man; January 6, 2012, 03:35 PM.
    Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

  • #2
    Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

    Hi MM,

    While I applaud the effort to reduce uninsured vehicles on the road, I think it's unfeasible to implement an electronic insurance card that will be used in the purchase of fuel. Wouldn't this mean every gas station will now need to modify their fuel pumps to be able to read this card? If the electronic insurance card is not a magnetic strip, but rather a smart chip, that would make the additions to the pump even more expensive. Then it needs to connect back to a database to verify the card. Who bares the cost? If the insurance carriers have to bare the cost, most likely they will pass this cost over in the form of higher premiums which washes out any savings from removing uninsured vehicles. Or what if friend simply swipes his insurance card to help bypass fuel pump check? Or maybe start a black market for fuel? I fill a gas can to sell to people who are willing to pay a little extra?

    Wouldn't it be more effective to simply require proof of insurance during car registration renewals and during safety checks?

    On a side note, how about expanding the safety checks to include smog checks?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

      I've long been a proponent of "pay at the pump" to fund liability insurance that will cover all motorists. That way, everybody who desires to drive a car on this island will be forced to pay for insurance.

      I know there has been criticism of the "pay at the pump" proposal. Goodness knows it's not perfect. But the system we have in place right now (which allows more than an estimated 25-30% of drivers to be on the road uninsured) sure isn't working.
      This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

        Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
        I've long been a proponent of "pay at the pump" to fund liability insurance that will cover all motorists. That way, everybody who desires to drive a car on this island will be forced to pay for insurance.

        I know there has been criticism of the "pay at the pump" proposal. Goodness knows it's not perfect. But the system we have in place right now (which allows more than an estimated 25-30% of drivers to be on the road uninsured) sure isn't working.
        Curious, when you say "pay at the pump to fund liability insurance", are you suggesting car insurance in its present form be abolished and everyone gets insurance each time they fill up? Meaning that price per gallon would now consist of cost of gas, taxes, and insurance?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
          Meaning that price per gallon would now consist of cost of gas, taxes, and insurance?
          That idea has been floated before in public (not just by FM), so I think that's what he means.

          I think it will create a different set of problems, but it would cover everyone.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
            While I applaud the effort to reduce uninsured vehicles on the road, I think it's unfeasible to implement an electronic insurance card that will be used in the purchase of fuel.
            It looks like the idea is to make it compatible with existing hardware. The question is how expensive is it to reprogram the system to accept/require these cards? That's something only the guys who sell/service the pump systems would know.

            While it looks like great idea, I think the net effect would be a land office business if fake cards. The higher end criminals seem to have no problems making fake credit cards, so I'm sure they'd jump at selling fake insurance cards with the mag stripe.

            I wonder about the feasibility of connecting insurance to a credit/debit card? As long as you use that card to fill-up, no problem. Otherwise you have to show insurance to the casher or perhaps be subject to the gas+insurance price.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

              Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
              I've long been a proponent of "pay at the pump" to fund liability insurance that will cover all motorists. That way, everybody who desires to drive a car on this island will be forced to pay for insurance.

              I know there has been criticism of the "pay at the pump" proposal. Goodness knows it's not perfect. But the system we have in place right now (which allows more than an estimated 25-30% of drivers to be on the road uninsured) sure isn't working.
              YOW! That would mean that everyone would need to pay the same insurance (rate?), regardless of their driving habits??? UNFAIR!!!!!

              Tell me, frankin, how this could work. I approve of mandatory insurance for all drivers, however, how could the rates be managed?

              I would call this a semi-great idea....
              Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
              ~ ~
              Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
              Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
              Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                Otherwise you have to show insurance to the casher or perhaps be subject to the gas+insurance price.
                And that's why I think the proposal for verification at the pump is impractical. Imagine that single Costco attendant now needing to verify every customer waiting in line.

                Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                YOW! That would mean that everyone would need to pay the same insurance (rate?), regardless of their driving habits??? UNFAIR!!!!!
                Not to mention type of car. Imagine the guy in his new Mercedes paying the same as the guy in his '87 Sentra.

                Also, what about people who drive electric vehicles and never use a pump?

                I say let's start picking off the low hanging fruit first, how about simply just asking for proof of insurance during car registration renewals? I don't see any requirement presently with the online system.

                http://www4.honolulu.gov/mvrreg/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                  Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                  I say let's start picking off the low hanging fruit first, how about simply just asking for proof of insurance during car registration renewals? I don't see any requirement presently with the online system.
                  How about cars that are found to not be insured be immediately impounded until insured?

                  The one drawback to either system, I see to recall that people would insure their cars, get the card, and then cancel (refund) the insurance. So someone might have insurance just for registration.

                  But I wonder if we can get a law that auto insurance can not be canceled expect by surrendering the plates. Transferred, yes, but not canceled and refunded.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                    If you purchase a new car and need to get insurance onto that vehicle, chances are you are transferring or upgrading your present policy to cover the new vehicle and taking off that policy on the vehicle you just traded in.

                    In the State of Hawaii, the plates stay with the vehicle unlike some states in CONUS. A system would need to be put in place to have all DMV's in each county to accept, and store those plates, then release those plates once the car dealership transfers title.

                    That could happen, it would also add yet another fee to those "extra fees" already accessed on the purchase of a new or pre-owned vehicle.

                    As for just verification of insurance itself, perhaps a barcoded insurance card could be the best way for the time being. A laser scanner would scan the insurance card at the pump. For cash payment, a scanner at the register would take it's place with no number visible for manual input by a scrupulous friend at the register.

                    When an insurance card is issued and printed for each policy holder, a barcode would be printed on the card itself. These cards could not be photocopied or scanned for reproduction or else a "Void" watermark would disallow laser scanning at the pump or register.

                    This measure would provide two things: 1) scanning and verification of insurance before gas can be administered, and 2) prevent fake insurance cards from being printed.

                    It won't prevent someone from filling a gas can with gas after swiping a verified barcode, however it would make it very difficult for someone to fill up their uninsured vehicle.

                    If the card is stolen, scanned cards would automatically notify police that someone is using it (provided that card is reported stolen), and where.

                    Yes it would add another level of cost at the pump, however with credit card slots already at the pump, it's not that much more.
                    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                      Creating a barcoded card is even easier then a mag stripe card. Hell, even I can do that.

                      The attraction of a magstripe card is that the pump already has one. Barcode would require installing more hardware.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                        Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                        It won't prevent someone from filling a gas can with gas after swiping a verified barcode,
                        Or prevent someone from passing the pump nozzle to an uninsured friend with another car parked nearby.

                        I still think the old "pay at the pump" proposal (with the cost of liability insurance automatically added to the price of gas) is the best bet.

                        Under this system, how do you make the unsafe and accident-prone drivers pay for a greater share of the total insurance burden?

                        Answer: DMV already has a database that records all traffic accidents and moving violations. When drivers rack up these kinds of incidents, assess an insurance surcharge on top of whatever fees are needed to pay for license renewal. The more (or serious) the incidents you have, the higher the surcharge.

                        Also, keep in mind that the "pay at the pump" only covers liability. Drivers who have new or valuable vehicles could still purchase supplemental coverage from private insurers.

                        What are the benefits?

                        1) Everybody who operates a vehicle would be covered, which would eliminate the need for law-abiding drivers to purchase uninsured motorist coverage.

                        2) There would be no need to purchase and maintain a new swiping/scanning system for every damn gas pump in this state. In fact, everything to implement the above proposal is already in place.
                        This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                          Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                          Also, keep in mind that the "pay at the pump" only covers liability. Drivers who have new or valuable vehicles could still purchase supplemental coverage from private insurers.

                          What are the benefits?

                          1) Everybody who operates a vehicle would be covered, which would eliminate the need for law-abiding drivers to purchase uninsured motorist coverage.

                          2) There would be no need to purchase and maintain a new swiping/scanning system for every damn gas pump in this state. In fact, everything to implement the above proposal is already in place.

                          This sounds more practical that a verification scheme at the pump. Though it does bring its own set of concerns. With basic liability removed from an individual's premium, will the theoretical reduction in premium due to less risk of uninsured vehicles offset any increases in supplemental premiums because now the insurance companies can't sell basic liability and can't sell uninsured motor vehicle coverage which translates to loss in revenue for them? Will the city and county be effective in negotiating a good price for basic liability since there is now one single customer entity and that may limit competition.

                          Lastly, how do EVs and CNGs get addressed?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                            This sounds more practical that a verification scheme at the pump. Though it does bring its own set of concerns. With basic liability removed from an individual's premium, will the theoretical reduction in premium due to less risk of uninsured vehicles offset any increases in supplemental premiums because now the insurance companies can't sell basic liability and can't sell uninsured motor vehicle coverage which translates to loss in revenue for them?
                            Before I address your questions, let me state my POV about a few things.

                            First of all, I don't think that auto liability insurance should be a matter of private enterprise.

                            Everyone here concurs with the concept of every driver being covered. But here's an ugly truth: The insurance companies don't care about the goal of reducing the number of uninsured drivers on our roads. Their answer to the problem of uninsured motorists is to sell uninsured and underinsured coverage. Hey, as long as they are able to soak law-abiding drivers to cover against the mishaps of uninsured folks, the insurance companies are happy and content to keep the status-quo.

                            I believe that basic liability insurance needs to be provided by the state and administered by a non-profit entity, similar to the Honolulu city bus system being operated and managed by OTS. The "pay at the pump" fees, as well as any insurance surcharge incurred by high-risk drivers, will be determined by statistical tools and actuarials to sustain a solvent public insurance fund.

                            Because this auto liability insurance will be paid for by all drivers who purchase gasoline, there will be savings for drivers who are already following the law by paying for a no-fault policy. Additional savings will be realized by the simple fact that this system is non-profit, so premium money is not being wasted on bonuses and swank parties for insurance executives.

                            In fact, the only people who will pay more under this proposed system are those scofflaws who have been driving around with no insurance. Are you gonna feel sorry for those freeloaders?

                            As far as private insurers raising their premiums on supplemental coverage as a response to their being taken out of the liability insurance business... that problem will be taken care of by having a competitive marketplace.

                            Hawaii drivers.... wake up! For nearly 40 years, the private insurance companies have exploited the flaws of this state's mandatory no-fault law in order to fatten up their coffers on our dime. How much longer are we going to allow ourselves to be victimized by this scam?

                            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                            Lastly, how do EVs and CNGs get addressed?
                            Easy. Pay at the Plug.

                            But seriously..... just assess an appropriate insurance charge on top of the license fees for alternative energy vehicles.
                            Last edited by Frankie's Market; January 10, 2012, 04:08 AM.
                            This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Uninsured motorists in C&C of Honolulu

                              Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                              I believe that basic liability insurance needs to be provided by the state and administered by a non-profit entity, similar to the Honolulu city bus system being operated and managed by OTS. The "pay at the pump" fees, as well as any insurance surcharge incurred by high-risk drivers, will be determined by statistical tools and actuarials to sustain a solvent public insurance fund.

                              Because this auto liability insurance will be paid for by all drivers who purchase gasoline, there will be savings for drivers who are already following the law by paying for a no-fault policy. Additional savings will be realized by the simple fact that this system is non-profit, so premium money is not being wasted on bonuses and swank parties for insurance executives.
                              OK, but - how do you keep the legislature from raiding the the insurance? They seem to excel at that type of thing. Plus, how good will the service be when it's essentially provided by government employees?

                              With the extra cost in gas, how do you deal with gasoline thefts? So few people have private enclosed garages, Hawaii would be ripe for that.


                              Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                              just assess an appropriate insurance charge on top of the license fees for alternative energy vehicles.
                              So why don't we just do that with everyone?

                              Comment

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