Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Has it really been shoved down our throats? From what I can research on the web, announcement of the ferry system was in 2003. But real opposition to the ferry on the account of an EIS didn't really happen till 2005. Where were these people during that time interim? If I'm missing some vital info, please fill me in.

According this time line
planning for the Super Ferry started in 2001.But it seemed these were
preliminary inquiries into the viability of this service. But nonetheless, as
a longtime kama'aina, I staunchly still believe this HSF service is being
shoved down our throat.

As for harbor space, I thought that's where the State was supposed to come into play. Didn't they agree to do $40 mil in harbor upgrades? Maybe it's the State that's lagging.

If you think 40 million is going to cover the harbor upgrades, I got some land
in Kalapana I got to sell you. Take Kawaihae on the Big Island, for example.
It is going to cost more than 40 million there to have adequate infrastructure
in place. Aside that, the 40 million I believe is for the barges which the HSF
will dock at each port.

I'm not even getting into the how the additional vehicles will impact the roadway infrastructure.

Possibility of invasive species, yes. Any easier? Don't see it any easier than on a plane. The vessel won't use any ballast water so no threat of carrying marine invasive species. So I guess the main threat is what people bring with them. But as far as I understand, they will do a similar agricultural inspection like they do at the airport. So no better, no worse.

If you think the HDOA will have enough manpower to do inspections, I got
a news flash for you. They don't even have enough to monitor airplane
passengers (at least in Kona). Aside that on a aircraft you can't take
your car with you, which increases the chances of invasive species being
transported between the islands.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

"We"? Who exactly is "we"? And specifically what insider information does "we" have in hand in order to speculate about what Superferry wants? Or is "we" just psychic? Vulcan mind-meld, perhaps? Tarot? Tea leaves? Sheesh. How utterly and completely silly.

Lika, I brought it up almost exactly one year ago (post #6) and there was some discussion at that time. Too bad you didn't put your two cents in at the time.

Miulang
FYI: 3 of the Board Members have Navy connections: Lehman (the chairman), Krekel (vice chair), and Shirley.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

According this time line
planning for the Super Ferry started in 2001.But it seemed these were
preliminary inquiries into the viability of this service. But nonetheless, as
a longtime kama'aina, I staunchly still believe this HSF service is being
shoved down our throat.




If you think 40 million is going to cover the harbor upgrades, I got some land
in Kalapana I got to sell you. Take Kawaihae on the Big Island, for example.
It is going to cost more than 40 million there to have adequate infrastructure
in place. Aside that, the 40 million I believe is for the barges which the HSF
will dock at each port.

I'm not even getting into the how the additional vehicles will impact the roadway infrastructure.



If you think the HDOA will have enough manpower to do inspections, I got
a news flash for you. They don't even have enough to monitor airplane
passengers (at least in Kona). Aside that on a aircraft you can't take
your car with you, which increases the chances of invasive species being
transported between the islands.

Yeah, I saw the timeline too but the earliest public reports I can find about the Superferry is 2003 so I'll choose that year as when the public officially became aware of the project. That still gives well over a year for someone to raise the fuss about an EIS which again did not happen till early 2005 so what happened there? That's why I don't believe the project's being crammed down our throats. Earliest public article I can find on HSF is PBN on 6/16/03. Construction of ships started on 6/4/04. Senate Bill 1785 which requires EIS was introduced on 1/27/05. Why this delay? Is it because opponents figured HSF was all talk until they actually started ship construction?

Pier 19 in Honolulu was rebulit with a ferry terminal at about $5 million in 2003. This includes a 12000 sq ft terminal for ticket sales, customer processing, passenger and vehicle waiting, baggage and claim and other services. So $40 million can do a lot of improvements. I don't disagree that a more permanent means of providing loading/unloading a RoRo ferry is needed. But it seems the State has chosen an ad hoc way by using barges. If you look at the link below, you can see because the ferry is rear loading, a portion of the pier needs to jut out into the water to meet the vessels rear hatch, thus the use of barges. Maybe the State is employing barges instead of something permanent to see if HSF will be a hit or a miss first? Either way though, the issue about harbor facilities is with the State. HSF gave the specs of what kind of vessels they will use to the State early on. And the State agreed to improve facilties to accomodate HSF. People should be complaining to the State about their methods to accomodate HSF, not HSF themselves. Same goes with the issue of traffic.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/as...1103821024.GIF

Regarding HDOA, that's an issue of manpower then. That doesn't make the concept of HSF any more or less prone to invasive species. If there's not even enough HDOA for flights, would you say airlines are at fault for that too? In regards to cars, what happens with cars that go by barge between islands these days? Isn't the same risk there?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

From what I can recall, the reason why the DoT wanted to use a barge in Kahului Harbor is because they didn't want to have to go through an EIS because it would take too much time to conduct. An EIS would have been required if more permanent docking space was being built. The Maui litigants in the Superferry suit don't want to punish Superferry, they just want the EIS conducted to study the effects of ANY increased volumes in Kahului Harbor (including more cruise ship dockings and YB shipments, as well as Superferry). Maui County is trying to put together a study of harbor usage to include in its master plan for development, too.

Maui County has been griping longest (since before 2005) because Kahului Harbor will be the first one impacted, and the one with the most problems with adding more volume to the already-crowded facilities. Since they want to tack on a barge to the end of Pier 2, it's going to be really interesting to see how that daily traffic will work with an NCL cruise ship docked 6 days out of 7 on Pier 3, along with the Matson/Young Bros barges, and with the canoe club practicing in that harbor on the Wailuku side. (back in the good old days, I caught a papio off the side of Pier 2 one time).

Miulang

P.S. in searching through the Maui News archives, one of the first public comments about Superferry was received around November, 2004.

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

That's why I don't believe the project's being crammed down our throats.

Nonetheless, I have and always will believe this project is being crammed
down our throats. If there was any aloha how residents felt an EIS should've
been done from the onset. Yes, I've read an EIS is not necessary for HSF.
But to me HSF is different than YB, Matson,cruise ships. As HSF will carry
both passengers and vehicles.

Maybe the State is employing barges instead of something permanent to see if HSF will be a hit or a miss first? Either way though, the issue about harbor facilities is with the State. HSF gave the specs of what kind of vessels they will use to the State early on. And the State agreed to improve facilities to accommodate HSF. People should be complaining to the State about their methods to accommodate HSF, not HSF themselves. Same goes with the issue of traffic.

The State is employing barges so they can skirt doing any EA for the harbors.
Since technically a barge is not a physical improvement to the harbor, an
EA is not necessary. As for infrastructure, it is my understanding HSF will
be responsible for the buildings on the land, not the state. The state is
only responsible for the construction of the barges, hence the 40 million.
So people will have to use port-a-potties at least initially for example when
waiting for HSF.

As for traffic impacts, it is HSF's fault squarely . If they didn't start service,
the forthcoming traffic jams and deadly accidents would not be happening
at Akoni Pule Highway/Queen Kaahumanu Highway intersection (Above Kawaihae).

Regarding HDOA, that's an issue of manpower then. That doesn't make the concept of HSF any more or less prone to invasive species. If there's not even enough HDOA for flights, would you say airlines are at fault for that too? In regards to cars, what happens with cars that go by barge between islands these days? Isn't the same risk there?

I completely disagree, if HDOA doesn't have enough manpower,
it will definitely cause things to slip through. Same goes with
the way the way it is currently. There is probably things slip
through due to lax airport inspections.It is the fault of HDOA
for not having not enough inspectors,not the airlines. As for
your question, the risk is not as great when only cars get shipped.
Its when you mix both people and cars...

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

From what I can recall, the reason why the DoT wanted to use a barge in Kahului Harbor is because they didn't want to have to go through an EIS because it would take too much time to conduct. An EIS would have been required if more permanent docking space was being built. The Maui litigants in the Superferry suit don't want to punish Superferry, they just want the EIS conducted to study the effects of ANY increased volumes in Kahului Harbor (including more cruise ship dockings and YB shipments, as well as Superferry). Maui County is trying to put together a study of harbor usage to include in its master plan for development, too.

Maui County has been griping longest (since before 2005) because Kahului Harbor will be the first one impacted, and the one with the most problems with adding more volume to the already-crowded facilities. Since they want to tack on a barge to the end of Pier 2, it's going to be really interesting to see how that daily traffic will work with an NCL cruise ship docked 6 days out of 7 on Pier 3, along with the Matson/Young Bros barges, and with the canoe club practicing in that harbor on the Wailuku side. (back in the good old days, I caught a papio off the side of Pier 2 one time).

Miulang

P.S. in searching through the Maui News archives, one of the first public comments about Superferry was received around November, 2004.

Hmm, then it sounds to me the State's trying to skirt some issues themselves in order to build a more permanent docking solution. I don't know Kahului Harbor as well but maybe they could just simply use another pier besides Pier 2? I see your link to a concern in Nov 04, but that still makes me wonder why they waited that long considering it seems Kahului has already experienced this problem way before HSF's proposed entry. 3 NCL ships can dock in the harbor yet they didn't have to do a single EIS. Maybe a new arrangement could be made with NCL to simply have their ships lay anchor in the harbor rather than dock and use smaller boats to ferry passengers to and from the docks. Many smaller Carribean islands do this since they simply don't have docks capable of handling cruise ships. While you say the Maui litigants don't want to punish HSF, the mere delays caused by the lawsuit is punishment for HSF. The ships ordered are more or less custom built so what are they gonna do with them if delayed while accruing interest? What about the crew hired and trained to run the ships?

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Hmm, then it sounds to me the State's trying to skirt some issues themselves in order to build a more permanent docking solution.

As I mentioned, I believe its the state's way to not do a EIS. If any changes
are done to the harbor itself, I believe an EIS has to be done. Since they
are going to be using these barges,Its technically not a change to the harbor.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Nonetheless, I have and always will believe this project is being crammed
down our throats. If there was any aloha how residents felt an EIS should've
been done from the onset. Yes, I've read an EIS is not necessary for HSF.
But to me HSF is different than YB, Matson,cruise ships. As HSF will carry
both passengers and vehicles.



The State is employing barges so they can skirt doing any EA for the harbors.
Since technically a barge is not a physical improvement to the harbor, an
EA is not necessary. As for infrastructure, it is my understanding HSF will
be responsible for the buildings on the land, not the state. The state is
only responsible for the construction of the barges, hence the 40 million.
So people will have to use port-a-potties at least initially for example when
waiting for HSF.

As for traffic impacts, it is HSF's fault squarely . If they didn't start service,
the forthcoming traffic jams and deadly accidents would not be happening
at Akoni Pule Highway/Queen Kaahumanu Highway intersection (Above Kawaihae).




I completely disagree, if HDOA doesn't have enough manpower,
it will definitely cause things to slip through. Same goes with
the way the way it is currently. There is probably things slip
through due to lax airport inspections.It is the fault of HDOA
for not having not enough inspectors,not the airlines. As for
your question, the risk is not as great when only cars get shipped.
Its when you mix both people and cars...

I dunno bout using aloha as an argument. Business is best conducted by sticking to the rules. If you want to use the aloha argument, I could easily argue why is there no aloha for HSF? Why wait till after they've committed to building some expensive ships before raising hell and filing lawsuits for EIS? If EIS was such a big deal, why is NCL able to dock 3 different cruise ships in Kahului Harbor 6 days out of the week with no EIS? A cruise ship is even bigger than HSF and holds more passengers. A cruise ship actually uses ocean water for ballasts. Shouldn't they have pushed to revise the law to require an EIS each time some entity wants to conducts business in the harbor?

Yeah, I can see the barge as a way to skip EIS but that's the State's decision, don't think HSF said they would like to specifically dock and unload/load via barge.

Okay, now your statements are starting to lose logic and contain more of an emotional aspect. When HSF approached the State and said "here's the business plan we propose", isn't it up to DoT to look at it and question, "what's gonna happen with the number of vehicles unloading/loading in such a short time frame at the harbor?" Wouldn't it be up to DoT to say, "look, we're not gonna approve because the impact is too much for the current infrastructure not unless HSF helps out with improving the infrastructure?" And you're already predicting traffic jams and deadly accidents and blaming them on HSF. Why not blame the guy who was busy on the cell phone while driving that would cause this future deadly fatality? Heck, why not blame the car manufacturer for building that car that was in the deadly accident? If they didn't build cars, there would be no car accidents.

I dunno how you are disagreeing with me. Judging by your statement, you are agreeing it is a manpower issue and that's what I said. The HSF concept is no more or less prone to invasive issues as airlines. The problem is HDOA manpower but that is not HSF's fault.

How is mixing people with cars more risky than just cars being shipped in regards to invasive species? If I took a car offroading and say I picked up some fireants in the wheel wells, then took it down to the barges to be shipped by itself, I'm still transporting the fireants to another island.

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

If EIS was such a big deal, why is NCL able to dock 3 different cruise ships in Kahului Harbor 6 days out of the week with no EIS? A cruise ship is even bigger than HSF and holds more passengers.

But cruise ships can't carry cars. That is the difference between a cruise
ship and HSF. A cruise ship, takes their passengers and leave. With HSF
you have both passengers and cars. Thus causing more of an impact
on our roadway infrastructure.

Yeah, I can see the barge as a way to skip EIS but that's the State's decision, don't think HSF said they would like to specifically dock and unload/load via barge.

It is a perfect example of the state appeasing big money interests over
the little guy.

And you're already predicting traffic jams and deadly accidents and blaming them on HSF.

Because traffic jams are already occurring at that said intersection. I can only
speak for what I see. Have you ever been to Kawaihae ? Maybe if you did you'd gain some perspective on why I have issues with HSF.

I dunno how you are disagreeing with me. Judging by your statement, you are agreeing it is a manpower issue and that's what I said. The HSF concept is no more or less prone to invasive issues as airlines. The problem is HDOA manpower but that is not HSF's fault.

It is HSF's fault because they want to start service and the infrastructure
is not ready. Be it in the personnel or physical infrastructure.

How is mixing people with cars more risky than just cars being shipped in regards to invasive species? If I took a car offroading and say I picked up some fireants in the wheel wells, then took it down to the barges to be shipped by itself, I'm still transporting the fireants to another island.

It is when you mix a bunch of people with a bunch of cars it spells trouble
to me. A car by itself can't bring invasive species. Have you ever seen car bring a coqui frog ?

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

If you think 40 million is going to cover the harbor upgrades, I got some land in Kalapana I got to sell you. Take Kawaihae on the Big Island, for example. It is going to cost more than 40 million there to have adequate infrastructure in place.

Do you have facts to back that up, or is that just speculation again?

Aside that, the 40 million I believe is for the barges which the HSF
will dock at each port.

You "believe"? I repeat, are there facts to back that up, or is it just speculation again?

I'm not even getting into the how the additional vehicles will impact the roadway infrastructure.

As opposed to vehicles which come over by barge, which of course don't impact the infrastructure. Only vehicles arrive by Superferry will cause damage.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Lika, I brought it up almost exactly one year ago

Speculation remains nothing more than mere speculation, no matter how old it is.

FYI: 3 of the Board Members have Navy connections: Lehman (the chairman), Krekel (vice chair), and Shirley.

Aha! It's a conspiracy!
Imagine that. Three Navy folks involved with a project using large ships in waters that the Navy is extremely familiar with. Well, I'll just speculate here that perhaps they have input of extreme nautical value to Superferry.
But hey, that's just speculation.
And there are 11 Board members, so your three Navy folks are clearly a minority of the Board members, not to mention that the Chairman does not have a vote except as a tiebreaker.

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Do you have facts to back that up, or is that just speculation again?

After sleeping on it, and re-reading what I wrote, I believe I exaggerated
a little there.But try visit Kawaihae, and you'll see that it is going to cost
a lot of money to build the infrastructure to support HSF

As I said before, I can only speak for what I've seen. I've never seen
the harbor on Maui or Kauai.

You "believe"? I repeat, are there facts to back that up, or is it just speculation again?

This one I'm pretty sure about, the 40 million dollars is to be used to build
the barges which the HSF will dock on Big Island, Maui and Kauai.

As opposed to vehicles which come over by barge, which of course don't impact the infrastructure. Only vehicles arrive by Superferry will cause damage.

As I've said before, when you mix both cars and people that is only going to
be a detriment to the environment and the infrastructure. Luckily the Big Island won't be getting this service until 2009. As we are already having traffic problems.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Joshua:
There's no more room to build any more piers in Kahului Harbor (see map). Pier 1 in the harbor is where NCL docks a ship 6 days out of 7 (in towards the shore) and takes up about 2/3 of that pier. The back portion of that dock (about 1/3) is where Matson docks its container ships. Pier 2 is where YB barges are unloaded. The new "pier" 2A, the Superferry barge, will be placed right at the end of Pier 2. The canoe clubs practice off Hoaloha Beach Park (to the left of Pier 3). There is very little space for YB to continue its operations, since it has to give up a lot of the land it was using so that Superferry can have a loading area. One concession that was made is that A&B will sell some land adjacent to the harbor where the Old Kahului Store is located so that YB can have more space adjacent to their loading area (the State will buy some of the parking area behind the Kahului Store Building and restripe the remaining area and leave the Kahului Building alone as it is a historic site). But all this is considered temporary by the State and YB and is only designed as an interim (i.e. no longer than 3 years) solution.

On the other side of the harbor, there's a boat ramp and park (where the homeless used to live in their cars). I thought it might make sense to have Superferry dock on the other side of Pier 1, but it's open ocean on that side and subject to lots of wind and waves. The other option would have been to put the Maui facility at Maalaea, which would have made way more sense because it wouldn't cause the same kind of congestion that it's going to cause in Kahului Harbor, but I think they nixed that idea because of the expense of rehabbing Maalaea.

Miulang

P.S. In order of priority, my guess is the residents of Maui would say YB is the most important user of the harbor, then NCL (because it brings lots of tourist bux but no additional cars) and then finally, Superferry (because of the car issues and traffic problems).

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

But cruise ships can't carry cars. That is the difference between a cruise
ship and HSF. A cruise ship, takes their passengers and leave. With HSF
you have both passengers and cars. Thus causing more of an impact
on our roadway infrastructure.

An NCL cruise ship carries about 2800 people each. When it makes a port call, are you telling me there won't be a frenzy of buses and taxis to take these people from the dock to whatever tourist sites that may be? NCL has been fined in the past for illegally dumping toxic waters. So they have just as much of an impact on the roadways and waters. Yet no one raises stink about them? That's why I am arguing that the whole raising hell for an EIS on HSF is biased. If people raised the same hell with NCL, then I will say nothing as it would be consistent. And also you're argument that a cruise ship will take their passengers and leave, well what do you think HSF does when it leaves port? It will take passengers and cars off the island too.

It is a perfect example of the state appeasing big money interests over the little guy.

How is providing a rickety means of loading/unloading cars via barge appeasing big money interests? If the State really was trying to appease HSF, they would have found a way to bypass an EIS and actually build the dock extensions. I think the State went down one of two paths.

1) State is unwilling to spend the big money to invest in permanent upgrades because it is unsure if HSF will become a long term viable business. Interisland ferrys have been tried in the past and failed for one reason or another.
Or....
2) State really didn't do any homework and at the time of agreement with HSF on service start date, thought they could accomplish upgrading the harbors correctly by start date only to realize no way so the adhoc barge concept which will meet the start date by eliminating their need for EIS and construction time.

Because traffic jams are already occurring at that said intersection. I can only speak for what I see. Have you ever been to Kawaihae ? Maybe if you did you'd gain some perspective on why I have issues with HSF.

No, I haven't been to Kawaihae but by your own admission, there is already a traffic problem so it is not HSF's fault for causing it. Now the arrival of HSF will contribute more to the current problem but again, it was the DoT's responsibility to keep an eye on the condition and raise issues about it but they said nothing so the fault lies with them.

It is HSF's fault because they want to start service and the infrastructure is not ready. Be it in the personnel or physical infrastructure.

Read above.

It is when you mix a bunch of people with a bunch of cars it spells trouble to me. A car by itself can't bring invasive species. Have you ever seen car bring a coqui frog ?

I haven't personally seen it myself but it's a known fact that the brown tree snake infestation on Guam was brought about by snakes hitching rides in ships' cargos. Then a few came to Oahu via the wheel wells of planes. Last time I check, no one is allowed near the wheel wells except the captain, pilot, or ground crew so I doubt those folks were on purposely planting snakes in the wheel wells. So a car can bring a coqui frog.

HSF isn't doing something radical. There's always been movement of people and goods between the islands. So the threat of invasive species has always been there. HSF is neither increasing or decreasing this threat.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Joshua:
There's no more room to build any more piers in Kahului Harbor (see map). Pier 1 in the harbor is where NCL docks a ship 6 days out of 7 (in towards the shore) and takes up about 2/3 of that pier. The back portion of that dock (about 1/3) is where Matson docks its container ships. Pier 2 is where YB barges are unloaded. The new "pier" 2A, the Superferry barge, will be placed right at the end of Pier 2. The canoe clubs practice off Hoaloha Beach Park (to the left of Pier 3). There is very little space for YB to continue its operations, since it has to give up a lot of the land it was using so that Superferry can have a loading area. One concession that was made is that A&B will sell some land adjacent to the harbor where the Old Kahului Store is located so that YB can have more space adjacent to their loading area (the State will buy some of the parking area behind the Kahului Store Building and restripe the remaining area and leave the Kahului Building alone as it is a historic site). But all this is considered temporary by the State and YB and is only designed as an interim (i.e. no longer than 3 years) solution.

On the other side of the harbor, there's a boat ramp and park (where the homeless used to live in their cars). I thought it might make sense to have Superferry dock on the other side of Pier 1, but it's open ocean on that side and subject to lots of wind and waves. The other option would have been to put the Maui facility at Maalaea, which would have made way more sense because it wouldn't cause the same kind of congestion that it's going to cause in Kahului Harbor, but I think they nixed that idea because of the expense of rehabbing Maalaea.

Miulang

P.S. In order of priority, my guess is the residents of Maui would say YB is the most important user of the harbor, then NCL (because it brings lots of tourist bux but no additional cars) and then finally, Superferry (because of the car issues and traffic problems).

Thanks for the map link and detailed descriptions. I definitely have a better picture of Kahului Harbor now. Clearly it looks like the State did some poor planning then when HSF showed up and said they wanted to lay anchor at Kahului. The easiest and cheapest solution I really see right now is to engage NCL and negotiate for them to have their cruise ships lay anchor in the middle of the harbor and have smaller boats ferry passengers back and forth. That 2/3 of pier 1 can then be used for HSF and the boat ferries for NCL.