Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

http://starbulletin.com/2006/09/29/e...ommentary.html

THE LINGLE administration's refusal to acknowledge the need of an environmental impact statement for the pending Superferry operation is both outrageous and irresponsible.

The county councils of Maui, the Big Island and Kauai have all been adamant in their request that the state of Hawaii requires an EIS prior to the start of the Superferry operations. Many if not most of the neighbor island state legislators have indicated their support for an EIS requirement and thousands of individuals have made it abundantly clear that they believe an EIS should be mandatory.

Read the link, gonna have to say there's a bit of exaggeration in that commentary. HSF is now also gonna be at fault for bringing in crime too?

But just to play devil's advocate, okay, let's say we do the EIS. And it will pretty much state the obvious, more traffic, busier harbor traffic, etc. Then what? Are you gonna shut down HSF then? And if so, what happens to the $40 mil spent by the state on the barges and associated equipment being built in China at the moment? What about the federally backed loan HSF took to build the ships? The residents of Hawaii plus all other American taxpayers gonna foot that $140 mil loan as the feds repossess the ships and sell them at a fraction of the loan?

And I need to point this out, HSF's agreement with the state is a 22 year agreement and guarantees at least $2.3 mil in payment from HSF to the State in fees annually, excluding the docking fees for each time the ships call port. So is the $40 mil the State's spending really a subsidy to HSF, considering all the harbor upgrades belong to the State and is not exclusively reserved for HSF? If another ferry startup wants to use the facilities, HSF has to make room for them. As for the federally backed loan, that's a loophole caused by two laws. The Jones Act requires any marine service between two US ports to consist of a ship built in the US, registered in the US, and manned by a US crew. Which is probably why HSF is having their ships built in Alabama. The ship manufacturer, Austal, is based in Australia and easily could build it there. Then you got the Title XI law that permits ships built in the US to apply for a federally backed loan. Can you say that's subsidizing HSF on a federal level or just merely the confluence of two laws?

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

The interesting thing about it all is, each county has a harbor plan for the year 2030 (and most are in the process of revising their plans) that were probably drawn up around 2000. So much has changed since then (Superferry wasn't even in the equation when this plan was drawn up) that Maui County in particular really does need to revise its harbor plan desperately.

Most of the recommendations that were drafted for the 2030 plan have fallen by the wayside, including the plans for upgrading the current cruise line facilities, so again, what was the reason the County and the residents worked so long and hard to have the master plan drawn up anyway??

Miulang

That's one thing I never could understand about Hawaii's gov't at all levels, all talk but no substance. I can never watch any politician's campaign commercial without hurling especially when they ham it up with "ohana" and "aloha". I rather have a cold hearted machine in office as long as things are done fairly and on schedule.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Joshuatree, it seems we are on a crash course for stalemate. Hence
why I decided not to respond to your last posting. I probably could,
but whats the point ? There is nothing that I've read that has or will
change my opinion about the HSF. The negatives simply outweight
positives.

hey Konaguy, yeah, it seems that way so I guess we can always agree to disagree but it's all good in the end because I get to see more of your viewpoints and I get to present mine

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

http://starbulletin.com/2006/09/29/e...ommentary.html

THE LINGLE administration's refusal to acknowledge the need of an environmental impact statement for the pending Superferry operation is both outrageous and irresponsible.

The county councils of Maui, the Big Island and Kauai have all been adamant in their request that the state of Hawaii requires an EIS prior to the start of the Superferry operations. Many if not most of the neighbor island state legislators have indicated their support for an EIS requirement and thousands of individuals have made it abundantly clear that they believe an EIS should be mandatory.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

The interesting thing about it all is, each county has a harbor plan for the year 2030 (and most are in the process of revising their plans) that were probably drawn up around 2000. So much has changed since then (Superferry wasn't even in the equation when this plan was drawn up) that Maui County in particular really does need to revise its harbor plan desperately.

Most of the recommendations that were drafted for the 2030 plan have fallen by the wayside, including the plans for upgrading the current cruise line facilities, so again, what was the reason the County and the residents worked so long and hard to have the master plan drawn up anyway??

Miulang

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Joshuatree, it seems we are on a crash course for stalemate. Hence
why I decided not to respond to your last posting. I probably could,
but whats the point ? There is nothing that I've read that has or will
change my opinion about the HSF. The negatives simply outweight
positives.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Thanks for the map link and detailed descriptions. I definitely have a better picture of Kahului Harbor now. Clearly it looks like the State did some poor planning then when HSF showed up and said they wanted to lay anchor at Kahului. The easiest and cheapest solution I really see right now is to engage NCL and negotiate for them to have their cruise ships lay anchor in the middle of the harbor and have smaller boats ferry passengers back and forth. That 2/3 of pier 1 can then be used for HSF and the boat ferries for NCL.

Looking at the map again, maybe another method is to play musical chairs. It really seems inefficient to have heavy cargo operations mixed with commercial passenger service on the same pier - pier 1 with Matson and NCL and pier 2 potentially with YB and HSF. Maybe YB and NCL can trade places. So pier 1 is Matson and YB, all cargo loading ops. NCL can dock at pier 2 on one side and HSF on the other side. I suspect a NCL cruise ship is longer than the length of pier 2 but you don't need to dock the entire length of the cruise ship to enable passengers to disembark.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

See, Miulang? All this speculation from you, and almost no cold hard facts.
As I've said here many times, I have my own questions and concerns on the subject, but I (and hopefully most reasonable people) will base my decision on FACTS, not on speculation.

Here is some more history on the Kahului Harbor issue. The concern is not just about Superferry but about ALL increased use of the limited space in the harbor.

Miulang

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

I thought it might make sense to have Superferry dock on the other side (...)
I think they nixed that idea because (...)
In order of priority, my guess is (...)

See, Miulang? All this speculation from you, and almost no cold hard facts.
As I've said here many times, I have my own questions and concerns on the subject, but I (and hopefully most reasonable people) will base my decision on FACTS, not on speculation.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Joshua:
There's no more room to build any more piers in Kahului Harbor (see map). Pier 1 in the harbor is where NCL docks a ship 6 days out of 7 (in towards the shore) and takes up about 2/3 of that pier. The back portion of that dock (about 1/3) is where Matson docks its container ships. Pier 2 is where YB barges are unloaded. The new "pier" 2A, the Superferry barge, will be placed right at the end of Pier 2. The canoe clubs practice off Hoaloha Beach Park (to the left of Pier 3). There is very little space for YB to continue its operations, since it has to give up a lot of the land it was using so that Superferry can have a loading area. One concession that was made is that A&B will sell some land adjacent to the harbor where the Old Kahului Store is located so that YB can have more space adjacent to their loading area (the State will buy some of the parking area behind the Kahului Store Building and restripe the remaining area and leave the Kahului Building alone as it is a historic site). But all this is considered temporary by the State and YB and is only designed as an interim (i.e. no longer than 3 years) solution.

On the other side of the harbor, there's a boat ramp and park (where the homeless used to live in their cars). I thought it might make sense to have Superferry dock on the other side of Pier 1, but it's open ocean on that side and subject to lots of wind and waves. The other option would have been to put the Maui facility at Maalaea, which would have made way more sense because it wouldn't cause the same kind of congestion that it's going to cause in Kahului Harbor, but I think they nixed that idea because of the expense of rehabbing Maalaea.

Miulang

P.S. In order of priority, my guess is the residents of Maui would say YB is the most important user of the harbor, then NCL (because it brings lots of tourist bux but no additional cars) and then finally, Superferry (because of the car issues and traffic problems).

Thanks for the map link and detailed descriptions. I definitely have a better picture of Kahului Harbor now. Clearly it looks like the State did some poor planning then when HSF showed up and said they wanted to lay anchor at Kahului. The easiest and cheapest solution I really see right now is to engage NCL and negotiate for them to have their cruise ships lay anchor in the middle of the harbor and have smaller boats ferry passengers back and forth. That 2/3 of pier 1 can then be used for HSF and the boat ferries for NCL.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

But cruise ships can't carry cars. That is the difference between a cruise
ship and HSF. A cruise ship, takes their passengers and leave. With HSF
you have both passengers and cars. Thus causing more of an impact
on our roadway infrastructure.

An NCL cruise ship carries about 2800 people each. When it makes a port call, are you telling me there won't be a frenzy of buses and taxis to take these people from the dock to whatever tourist sites that may be? NCL has been fined in the past for illegally dumping toxic waters. So they have just as much of an impact on the roadways and waters. Yet no one raises stink about them? That's why I am arguing that the whole raising hell for an EIS on HSF is biased. If people raised the same hell with NCL, then I will say nothing as it would be consistent. And also you're argument that a cruise ship will take their passengers and leave, well what do you think HSF does when it leaves port? It will take passengers and cars off the island too.

It is a perfect example of the state appeasing big money interests over the little guy.

How is providing a rickety means of loading/unloading cars via barge appeasing big money interests? If the State really was trying to appease HSF, they would have found a way to bypass an EIS and actually build the dock extensions. I think the State went down one of two paths.

1) State is unwilling to spend the big money to invest in permanent upgrades because it is unsure if HSF will become a long term viable business. Interisland ferrys have been tried in the past and failed for one reason or another.
Or....
2) State really didn't do any homework and at the time of agreement with HSF on service start date, thought they could accomplish upgrading the harbors correctly by start date only to realize no way so the adhoc barge concept which will meet the start date by eliminating their need for EIS and construction time.

Because traffic jams are already occurring at that said intersection. I can only speak for what I see. Have you ever been to Kawaihae ? Maybe if you did you'd gain some perspective on why I have issues with HSF.

No, I haven't been to Kawaihae but by your own admission, there is already a traffic problem so it is not HSF's fault for causing it. Now the arrival of HSF will contribute more to the current problem but again, it was the DoT's responsibility to keep an eye on the condition and raise issues about it but they said nothing so the fault lies with them.

It is HSF's fault because they want to start service and the infrastructure is not ready. Be it in the personnel or physical infrastructure.

Read above.

It is when you mix a bunch of people with a bunch of cars it spells trouble to me. A car by itself can't bring invasive species. Have you ever seen car bring a coqui frog ?

I haven't personally seen it myself but it's a known fact that the brown tree snake infestation on Guam was brought about by snakes hitching rides in ships' cargos. Then a few came to Oahu via the wheel wells of planes. Last time I check, no one is allowed near the wheel wells except the captain, pilot, or ground crew so I doubt those folks were on purposely planting snakes in the wheel wells. So a car can bring a coqui frog.

HSF isn't doing something radical. There's always been movement of people and goods between the islands. So the threat of invasive species has always been there. HSF is neither increasing or decreasing this threat.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Joshua:
There's no more room to build any more piers in Kahului Harbor (see map). Pier 1 in the harbor is where NCL docks a ship 6 days out of 7 (in towards the shore) and takes up about 2/3 of that pier. The back portion of that dock (about 1/3) is where Matson docks its container ships. Pier 2 is where YB barges are unloaded. The new "pier" 2A, the Superferry barge, will be placed right at the end of Pier 2. The canoe clubs practice off Hoaloha Beach Park (to the left of Pier 3). There is very little space for YB to continue its operations, since it has to give up a lot of the land it was using so that Superferry can have a loading area. One concession that was made is that A&B will sell some land adjacent to the harbor where the Old Kahului Store is located so that YB can have more space adjacent to their loading area (the State will buy some of the parking area behind the Kahului Store Building and restripe the remaining area and leave the Kahului Building alone as it is a historic site). But all this is considered temporary by the State and YB and is only designed as an interim (i.e. no longer than 3 years) solution.

On the other side of the harbor, there's a boat ramp and park (where the homeless used to live in their cars). I thought it might make sense to have Superferry dock on the other side of Pier 1, but it's open ocean on that side and subject to lots of wind and waves. The other option would have been to put the Maui facility at Maalaea, which would have made way more sense because it wouldn't cause the same kind of congestion that it's going to cause in Kahului Harbor, but I think they nixed that idea because of the expense of rehabbing Maalaea.

Miulang

P.S. In order of priority, my guess is the residents of Maui would say YB is the most important user of the harbor, then NCL (because it brings lots of tourist bux but no additional cars) and then finally, Superferry (because of the car issues and traffic problems).

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Do you have facts to back that up, or is that just speculation again?

After sleeping on it, and re-reading what I wrote, I believe I exaggerated
a little there.But try visit Kawaihae, and you'll see that it is going to cost
a lot of money to build the infrastructure to support HSF

As I said before, I can only speak for what I've seen. I've never seen
the harbor on Maui or Kauai.

You "believe"? I repeat, are there facts to back that up, or is it just speculation again?

This one I'm pretty sure about, the 40 million dollars is to be used to build
the barges which the HSF will dock on Big Island, Maui and Kauai.

As opposed to vehicles which come over by barge, which of course don't impact the infrastructure. Only vehicles arrive by Superferry will cause damage.

As I've said before, when you mix both cars and people that is only going to
be a detriment to the environment and the infrastructure. Luckily the Big Island won't be getting this service until 2009. As we are already having traffic problems.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Lika, I brought it up almost exactly one year ago

Speculation remains nothing more than mere speculation, no matter how old it is.

FYI: 3 of the Board Members have Navy connections: Lehman (the chairman), Krekel (vice chair), and Shirley.

Aha! It's a conspiracy!
Imagine that. Three Navy folks involved with a project using large ships in waters that the Navy is extremely familiar with. Well, I'll just speculate here that perhaps they have input of extreme nautical value to Superferry.
But hey, that's just speculation.
And there are 11 Board members, so your three Navy folks are clearly a minority of the Board members, not to mention that the Chairman does not have a vote except as a tiebreaker.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

If you think 40 million is going to cover the harbor upgrades, I got some land in Kalapana I got to sell you. Take Kawaihae on the Big Island, for example. It is going to cost more than 40 million there to have adequate infrastructure in place.

Do you have facts to back that up, or is that just speculation again?

Aside that, the 40 million I believe is for the barges which the HSF
will dock at each port.

You "believe"? I repeat, are there facts to back that up, or is it just speculation again?

I'm not even getting into the how the additional vehicles will impact the roadway infrastructure.

As opposed to vehicles which come over by barge, which of course don't impact the infrastructure. Only vehicles arrive by Superferry will cause damage.