Rail Transit

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

We've had just private transit, the auto, for the last 50/60 years. It's proven that it doesn't scale very well. Time to diversify.

You're confusing the technology with the ownership. Public cars wouldn't have worked any better.

I was actually asking you. What is your price point?

At this point, I don't have one. It would depend in part on my experience with the ride and what kind of things I could do with my time on the ride.

One approach that needs to be looked at is less about moving people quickly as much as it is letting them do productive things during the time so it's not wasted. That's a lot easier to do when they're not driving. That may be the "attractor" to getting people out of the car.

Better yet, why not build rail, then make every highway a toll road for the city and state. Refill coffers, reduce traffic, and will get more people on public transit. Like you said, whatever gets people to use it right?

Well, if you want to get run out of town on a rail, go ahead. I'm looking at trying to attract people out of the car.

So....how is this any different than how public transit is in operation right now? Is that not cattle treatment as you put it, "Next 5!!! Move along, nothing to see."

Cattle for the standbys, not for the ones with reservations.

If we did an honest assessment of all the money ever put into roads, I can say with conviction that it's way more than $5.25M per car.

Go for it. Show me the initial construction costs for other projects in a per car basis in today's dollars. Maybe you'll change my mind. Because at this point my problem is cost/benefit. I see it as a powerful talking point when discussing it with others.

[turtlegirl]

Re: Rail Transit

it's ridiculous to claim that because rail doesn't work in other cities similar in size to honolulu, it won't help here. um, hello? our city's brilliant planners of the past managed to jack up our freeway system by making onramps come before offramps and putting them so close together. that alone doomed us to bad traffic as the oahu's population grew. anything that allows even a small percentage of would-be drivers out of the atrocity of our urban freeway system (like rail would) would make a significant impact.

Yes! Yeeeeessss!!! You hit the nail on the head! Thanks Cyn!

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i just heard that soon councillady barbara marshall is on her way to vote on what they will choose only i feel if this happen's,we may not have a rail transit and we'd have to wait possibly another 16 or more year's for rail transit and this wont make me smile.

well thank's for your time

[Karen]

Re: Rail Transit

Sensei, yeah they've got to finally DO their vote. why I don't know since the mayor already announced he'll rule like a dictator on this one..so this vote is a joke but they'll do it, we'll see it on the news, and then hopefully rail will be forced to its rightful VOTE and the thing probably will never happen.

It is not right for the many to sacrifice for the few. The thing will never be crowded as many of our buses are, it'll go down in history as the joke that it is per billions to supposedly get us all out of our cars and USING the thing.

Also, voting on this can get more people off their butts and VOTING, and what a fitting year when we have such exciting presidential politics, history making and all....that maybe around this apathetic country we'll have the most voters than ever before.

Goodbye, Rail and howdy to crowded polls.

[turtlegirl]

Re: Rail Transit

Why isn't a monorail one of the options? Steel wheel on steel rail, maglev, rubber tire on cement....whatever. But why not monorail?

[Keanu]

Re: Rail Transit

"One reason why I'm not all gungho on a public vote is because of the specific agenda, stop rail now. It shows how myopic or perhaps how malicious special interest groups are operating."

Sorry, can't see the legitimacy of this point at all. How a public vote could ever be wrong when those pushing for a vote always have an agenda and yet everyone that pushes for a vote on any issue is always putting the decision out of their own power and into the power of the people.

The people are paying for this and it is the voice of all that will get up and vote that should decide this, not just the folks that made town meetings.

BILLIONS of dollars when this country is hit hard and this state is just seeing the start of slowdown... well, no matter what my current arguments are against rail...

voting is the right thing to do.

A yes or no vote on rail absent of an alternative doesn't make sense to me. I am not a big fan of the proposed rail project but at least it has specifics on the route and technologies that will be used for the fixed guideway system. What has the opposition proposed aside from a chance to exercise your vote?

[Keanu]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i just heard that soon councillady barbara marshall is on her way to vote on what they will choose only i feel if this happen's,we may not have a rail transit and we'd have to wait possibly another 16 or more year's for rail transit and this wont make me smile.

well thank's for your time

Sansei, the project doesn't die just because Council didn't exercise their right to choose the transit technology. This project is still on the move.

[Karen]

Re: Rail Transit

Keanu, you can read the alternatives they propose at their website....

www.stoprailnow.com

[Keanu]

Re: Rail Transit

Keanu, you can read the alternatives they propose at their website....

www.stoprailnow.com

I've read it. Provided they get the 42,000 plus signatures they need, if this goes on the ballot as a charter question, I don't think the question will specify HOT lanes as the alternative the City should proceed with. The City already looked at HOT lanes when they were working on their Alternative Analysis report and Council voted on a fixed guideway project. Do those that support the HOT lane alternative know where the money to fund the project will come from?

[AlohaKine]

Re: Rail Transit

This fixed rail proposal is a money losing White Elephant. Run it at a PROFIT or don't do it at all. Half a century ago, the last of the private " light rail" or commuter rail systems were going out of business.

It should tell you something - The public walked away from the product.

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

You're confusing the technology with the ownership. Public cars wouldn't have worked any better.

This has nothing to do with technology. No matter how much technology you pack, it doesn't change the basic fundamental that on a finite sized island, you can't keep increasing the number of cars. It's an issue of scalability, period.

At this point, I don't have one. It would depend in part on my experience with the ride and what kind of things I could do with my time on the ride.

One approach that needs to be looked at is less about moving people quickly as much as it is letting them do productive things during the time so it's not wasted. That's a lot easier to do when they're not driving. That may be the "attractor" to getting people out of the car.

Well, if you want to get run out of town on a rail, go ahead. I'm looking at trying to attract people out of the car.

It's already been mentioned many times that taking public transit will give opportunities to use that time for a nap or read a book or catch up on your email or just at least unwind from the stress of driving. If the rail is equipped with tv, you can get your day's worth of news.

So how do you propose to address your concerns when you say you can't really define a cost on public transit without the experience yet you're against the public transit project which would provide the experience? A circular argument.

Cattle for the standbys, not for the ones with reservations.

Go for it. Show me the initial construction costs for other projects in a per car basis in today's dollars. Maybe you'll change my mind. Because at this point my problem is cost/benefit. I see it as a powerful talking point when discussing it with others.

Your cattle example still doesn't make much sense. You will need to show up by X time before your "reservation" is considered given up so effectively, you still have to line up in one manner or another. And since public transit is designed with frequency in mind, the concept of reserving a seat falls apart because all you need to do is skipped this train/bus and wait for the next if you want a seat so bad. And who will monitor this boarding and unboarding? It's not simple point A to B.

This is very easy. H3's price tag was $1.3 billion when finished. That's not 2006 dollars. I use 2006 because that's when the rail project was priced. So it easily matches up to rail. Then let's add H2's price. Definitely less than $1.3 billion but again, not in 2006 dollars. Add H1. How about Pali? Likelike? That's just the major roadways. If we start adding up every public highway, alleyway, etc, the price per car for roads far exceed $5.25M.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

This has nothing to do with technology. No matter how much technology you pack, it doesn't change the basic fundamental that on a finite sized island, you can't keep increasing the number of cars. It's an issue of scalability, period.

Understood. But I'm proposing private buses and you keep harping on publicly owned transit. At no point have I said more cars is the solution.

At best I've tried to explain why people choose cars so we can think about ways of attracting people out of cars into a more efficient form of transport.

It's already been mentioned many times that taking public transit will give opportunities to use that time for a nap or read a book or catch up on your email or just at least unwind from the stress of driving. If the rail is equipped with tv, you can get your day's worth of news.

How likely is that to happen in publicly owned system? I think it's far more likely to happen in a privately owned one that has to compete to survive.

Your cattle example still doesn't make much sense. You will need to show up by X time before your "reservation" is considered given up so effectively, you still have to line up in one manner or another.

Why don't you ask the folks that liked Hawaiian Airline's style of assigning seats rather then Aloha's non-reserved style? With reserved seats you don't have to battle for the front of the line to get a seat you want. No "rush the doors" mentality.

But even with Aloha's system you knew you'd get a seat. That's more then you can say about our existing bus system. By reserving seats ahead of time, you knew you were going to get one and not worry about having to skip buses and be late for work. It's simply a way of managing the number of people who show up expecting rides and taking one less hassle out of the commute.

This is very easy. H3's price tag was $1.3 billion when finished.

Hey, great start. Now, how many cars were projected to use it? If it's more then 248, then it's cheaper then rail's projected cost per car.

Add H1. How about Pali? Likelike? That's just the major roadways. If we start adding up every public highway, alleyway, etc, the price per car for roads far exceed $5.25M.

Why are you comparing the entire road system against rail's cost when H1 from end to end covers more then even rail's extended plan?

[Karen]

Re: Rail Transit

Keanu, right now the next step is to VOTE.

The mayor and council should have wanted and called for a vote from the start. Too many people of wisdom know that just as you can throw a party but you can't force people to come, you can build rail, waste billions in a time when prices on everything are skyrocketing and we all NEED our own money more than ever before, but those wanting rail can't force the majority, or even enough folks to USE it.

Rail will never fix our overcrowding of the roadways. Human nature will dictate that it doesn't.

MOST....of the populace is not going to get out of their cars most of the time.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i read on kgmb's website from what i read that the transit bill if what i read is deadlocked and that the bill also for now wasnt voted on since councillady barbara marshall is on emergency leave so i thought to share this with everyone.it'll make me smile if it's like the mayor want's steel on steel.

well thank's for your time

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i spoke with my eldest sister and she shared with me that even today people in SF where she live's still ride's the bart and it's fast and it get's people to where they want and that the people who use's bart wont need their car's and less gas fume's in the air and that's what make's their air so clear and clean and she said that it truly would work here if it's done right and she said it may take a few year's if it's built early so she doesnt believe in Rubber on Concrete or magnetic levitation so i thought to share this with everyone.

well thank's for your time