Rail Transit

[Nobunaga]

Re: Rail Transit

I've heard this suggestion before but it doesn't quite address a critical component. Where will all the extra buses go with roads already being congested? If you think watching all the buses bunch up on Beretania is bad during rush hour, what will it look like when that number is tripled?

Hi Joshua,
The way to deal with the traffic problem with a tripled bus system would be very similar to deal with it with the Fixed Rail. While the rail will not be considered on the streets, we must "encourage" more people to use it if we want any real effect. The same with a much bigger bus system.

In Chicago, it cost me $360.00 to park at the Hyatt for a 3 day weekend. The parking within Honolulu can be increased to a point where it would be unreasonable to drive there and leave your car on a daily basis. Also, what is coming, fixed rail or not, will be another rise in gasoline prices. This will be to help pay for that rail.

The way to deal with the huge traffic problem on Oahu would be to eliminate the cars on the streets and highways. ANY mass transit system will work, and a tripled bus system could service the entire island, while the fixed rail will service the distance from Ewa to Hawaii Kai.

Does fixed rail systems work? Of course they do. They work very well in New York, Chicago, San Fancisco, and Washington DC. Would a good bus system work as well? Of course it would. It works very well in San Jose, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and Atlanta. The thing to consider with our fixed rail, is the fact that it will service only a certain population on Oahu, while a tripled bus system can service the entire island.
Nobu

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Rail Transit

No more different than someone tampering with copper wire for street lights. Or thieves stealing man hole covers. That's pretty detrimental for any vehicle traveling a decent speed. As I said, all public infrastructure should no longer be built if we can't accept a certain risk level.

Way different. No lights/covers? No real biggie, those incidents don't shut down an entire transit system. Shut down the rail system enuf, for any reason/s, and the satisfaction/confidence/ridership will plummet. This can't be half-assed, and we know it will be, which is why I've condemed this rail to failure from the start.

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

Hi Joshua,
The way to deal with the traffic problem with a tripled bus system would be very similar to deal with it with the Fixed Rail. While the rail will not be considered on the streets, we must "encourage" more people to use it if we want any real effect. The same with a much bigger bus system.

In Chicago, it cost me $360.00 to park at the Hyatt for a 3 day weekend. The parking within Honolulu can be increased to a point where it would be unreasonable to drive there and leave your car on a daily basis. Also, what is coming, fixed rail or not, will be another rise in gasoline prices. This will be to help pay for that rail.

The way to deal with the huge traffic problem on Oahu would be to eliminate the cars on the streets and highways. ANY mass transit system will work, and a tripled bus system could service the entire island, while the fixed rail will service the distance from Ewa to Hawaii Kai.

Does fixed rail systems work? Of course they do. They work very well in New York, Chicago, San Fancisco, and Washington DC. Would a good bus system work as well? Of course it would. It works very well in San Jose, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and Atlanta. The thing to consider with our fixed rail, is the fact that it will service only a certain population on Oahu, while a tripled bus system can service the entire island.
Nobu

So you have a chicken and egg scenario. What happens first? Flooding the congested streets with triple the number of buses first? Or do you implement the raised costs of parking fees and/or gas first? And if gas/diesel itself raises in price as dictated by world markets, how much buffer does a 1500+ bus fleet have? I remember when Harris wanted to implement BRT-Lite by restricting a lane or two for express buses and people were livid.

The proposed rail system serves a specific corridor directly but it serves everyone indirectly in the form of feeder and connecting buses as well as less congestion in town for people from other areas. Let's not forget, the comparison of one line to the entire road infrastructure which did not happen in one build project is apples to oranges.

Way different. No lights/covers? No real biggie, those incidents don't shut down an entire transit system. Shut down the rail system enuf, for any reason/s, and the satisfaction/confidence/ridership will plummet. This can't be half-assed, and we know it will be, which is why I've condemed this rail to failure from the start.

No covers is no real biggie? Wow, I didn't know the chance of a car flipping over upon impact is no real biggie. When that crane took out an overpass on the H1, that effectively killed the road system that day. Someone actually did die in traffic waiting it out.

[Nobunaga]

Re: Rail Transit

Hi Joshua,
I am not sure about the chicken/egg scenario, but the fixed rail will need to be constructed, which will cause a traffic problem. As it is, Honolulu already needs better accomidations for traffic. Do you remember the problems when the overpass was struck by a truck near the Aloha Stadium?

The addition of buses, would be immediate as soon as the buses arrive, and the existing roads can be used, and it would service the entire island.

As far as taking measures to ensure usage? It could be done simultaneously. Either way, with the fixed rail or increased bus system, it will have to be done, or the idea will fail.

One thing for sure, is if we go with the rail, and it fails, we cannot sell the rail even at a loss, but if a bus system fails, we can sell the buses, most likely at a loss.

[Nobunaga]

Re: Rail Transit

Way different. No lights/covers? No real biggie, those incidents don't shut down an entire transit system. Shut down the rail system enuf, for any reason/s, and the satisfaction/confidence/ridership will plummet. This can't be half-assed, and we know it will be, which is why I've condemed this rail to failure from the start.

Hi Ron,
While I am basically opposed to the rail also, I think it can succeed, but at the same time, I think it will be a lot more expensive than the new projected amounts.

One thing for sure, is if we go with the rail, there is no turning back. You put money into it, and if it fails, you cannot get most of your money back. While someone may buy the vehicle, no one is going to buy the concrete and steel stucture.

It is a gamble not worth the risk.
Nobu

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

.....The addition of buses, would be immediate as soon as the buses arrive, and the existing roads can be used, and it would service the entire island.....One thing for sure, is if we go with the rail, and it fails, we cannot sell the rail even at a loss, but if a bus system fails, we can sell the buses, most likely at a loss.

I don't know how immediate it can be as you can't just order another 1000 buses (current fleet is ~500) and expect them all to be delivered in one day. So that means batches get phased in. How do you implement your suggestions of raising prices when the bus service will only improve incrementally?

If you sell the buses at a loss, what consolation is that? Why not just do it right the first time around? And is it cheaper when you factor in a much larger bus fleet with a shorter lifespan compared to rail? You can roughly estimate that you will need to replace the entire bus fleet once over before looking at a rail fleet replacement.

[Nobunaga]

Re: Rail Transit

I don't know how immediate it can be as you can't just order another 1000 buses (current fleet is ~500) and expect them all to be delivered in one day. So that means batches get phased in. How do you implement your suggestions of raising prices when the bus service will only improve incrementally?

If you sell the buses at a loss, what consolation is that? Why not just do it right the first time around? And is it cheaper when you factor in a much larger bus fleet with a shorter lifespan compared to rail? You can roughly estimate that you will need to replace the entire bus fleet once over before looking at a rail fleet replacement.

Hi Joshua,
Of course, you cannot purchase 1000 buses in a day, or even in a couple of months. However, you can purchase small amounts at a time, and put them into service as quickly as you can hire qualified operators of those buses, while the fixed rail will take years to complete.

Also there is no consolation for losing money, but IF a better bus system fails, you can back out of it with a much smaller loss than if the fixed rail fails.

As I see it, an increased bus system can service the entire island, while the fixed rail can only service a small fraction of the geographic area of the island,
Nobu

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi,we've had buse's when deceased mayor ff was as our mayor and look how it failed,even with new fleet's,their was always gridlock when they worked on the road's by trying to re-pave the road's and when the heavy rain's came.look how the road's had pot hole's and that wasnt any good.

rail is the way to go.

Well thank's for your time

[LikaNui]

Re: Rail Transit

I don't remember which reporter pointed out about a month ago that the construction of the rail would require a huge number of employees to come over from the mainland, as there simply isn't anywhere near enough qualified workers here on the island. For the 10 to 13 years of construction, we can add all those workers to the traffic and congestion problem, plus they'll eliminate housing that so many of our citizens here desperately need.
My position from the very outset is that the rail plan is a horrible mistake. We cannot afford it now. And we can't afford it in the future, when the massive cost overruns start adding up. (Look at the construction of H-3. Wasn't it about 83% over budget? )
Nobunaga, you said the rail will service Ewa to Hawaii Kai, but that's totally incorrect as it won't get anywhere near Hawaii Kai. It won't even get close to UH. It will barely get past the airport. And reports are that there will be little parking at most of the stations, and zero parking at a few of them.
The whole thing is a convoluted, wickedly expensive mess of a plan that will serve only an extremely tiny percentage of the population but which 100% of us will be paying for for decades, while the rest of the decrepit infrastructure that already is way past due for replacement or repairs continues an increased pace of failure.
Rail is a hideously stupid idea here.
Nothing in this thread can even start to change my mind, so carry on.

Late addition: Okay, the first search of Google found an Advertiser article that reports two items of interest. First, the H-3 budget was $250,000 but it came in at $1.3 billion, and the Kalahea Avenue sewer project was budgeted at $19 million and came in over $75 million. Figure those same overrun percentages to the current estimate of $5.3 billion for rail. YIKES!
Second, the article notes that "A September 2007 study by the Federal Transit Administration found that 21 primarily rail construction projects built between 1990 and 2002 exceeded initial cost estimates by an average of nearly 21 percent. Under federal guidelines all of these projects built in allowances for cost overruns. Still, 16 went overbudget by 3 percent to 72 percent."

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi,if we dont have rail,would anyone here be enjoying being stuck in gridlock for all of our live's?

it wouldnt be nice and if anyone like myself and other's here who ride's moped's,if it rain,you'd have to get rain gear like a poncho and if your in gridlock,anyone who's riding a moped that their poncho's would be soaking wet and as a moped rider,believe me,you'd end up catching something not good.

this is a true reason we'd need rail if we didnt have it,this is what could happen of what i just shared.

i as a moped rider,has been stuck in gridlock and it's not good. i as a rider,had to take the backroad's and still be in gridlock if when the road's were being re-paved and it doesnt make sense.

Well thank's for your time

[Walkoff Balk]

Re: Rail Transit

hi,if we dont have rail,would anyone here be enjoying being stuck in gridlock for all of our live's?

Not if a lot of people use jet packs to fly over traffic.

[Nobunaga]

Re: Rail Transit

Hi Lika Nui,
Being that I live on the Island of Kauai, I am not all that familiar with the fixed rail's projected routes, but I would think the most sensible route would be from Ewa to Hawaii Kai. Since the route is shorder than that, probably from Pearl Harbor to Waikiki. it is all the more foolish to invest in a project that will service only a small fraction of Oahu. Again, a beefed up bus system would be far superior because the routes can cover the entire island.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: Rail Transit

hi,we've had buse's when deceased mayor ff was as our mayor and look how it failed,even with new fleet's,their was always gridlock when they worked on the road's by trying to re-pave the road's and when the heavy rain's came.look how the road's had pot hole's and that wasnt any good.

rail is the way to go.

Well thank's for your time

Hi Sansei,
I lived on Oahu when FF purchased "The Buses" and ran the program. Being a driver of a car, I used "The Bus" very infrequently, but I really don't think the idea failed at all. I rode the Bus from Alamoana to Waianae, and it took me close to two hours, but the bus was full right up to Makakilo. Being that I could drive the distance in half the time, I drove most of the time instead. Still, "The Bus" was not a failure.
Nobu

[Walkoff Balk]

Re: Rail Transit

Not if a lot of people use jet packs to fly over traffic.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/articles/y...o-take-flight/

That's what I'm talking about.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi,today myself and my mom went to ala moana and where we live,we waited for about 8:10 am to 8:30 am and then it took us to the stop by the state id place where we waited for the country express bus to ala moana and then while waiting for our no 57 kailua bus,we waited for about half and hour until we boarded the no 57 kailua bus and then we went on our destiny and we waited at alakea for our bus no 13 and we waited for about 10 Minute's and it's good that it didnt rain and while we waited at the rest stop close to where we get off,we waited for about 10 minute's and then we arrived home at about 12:00 pm and we had lunch and this was our bus ride which took a bit long and this is a reason we need rail is we dont need to wait for buse's that come at the lesiurely time and then take you to your destination.

Well thank's for your time