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Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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  • #46
    Re: Superferry EIS bill advances

    Originally posted by Miulang View Post
    They're gonna have to fight for that $75 million tax credit with the folks who want to now put an aquarium in Kaka'ako.
    Yeah, I know. You're right. But who the heck thinks we need another aquarium in Kaka'ako? Fix and improve the one we already have, I say. But we should probabloy start another thread for that topic.
    .
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    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

      At the close of the news story on TV last night, it was mentioned that this latest move is expected to get bottled up in committee and die there.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

        Originally posted by oceanpacific View Post
        At the close of the news story on TV last night, it was mentioned that this latest move is expected to get bottled up in committee and die there.
        As well it should. And once again, our elected officials waste valuable time on a bill that never should have been introduced in the first place. Lack of forethought. Like the bill to purchase a private jet for the state, and Hanabusa can't even remember who first suggested it, yet she authored the bill.
        Who elects these airheads?!?
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        That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

          Originally posted by LikaNui View Post
          As well it should. And once again, our elected officials waste valuable time on a bill that never should have been introduced in the first place. Lack of forethought. Like the bill to purchase a private jet for the state, and Hanabusa can't even remember who first suggested it, yet she authored the bill.
          Who elects these airheads?!?
          Nah, it's called "delayed hindsight" by the Neighbor Island legislators. Of course, they could plead ignorance by saying that the DOT and Superferry were in cahoots (wonder if this is one of the reasons why Rod Haraga got fired?) and didn't give them all the information they needed earlier, but they gotta put up at least a token fight because a vast majority of the residents of Maui don't think Superferry is a good idea if it means that they won't be able to get their basic necessities shipped to them and the canoe clubs can't practice in Kahului Harbor (canoeing is a big deal on Maui). Many people think it's an Oahu conspiracy to again take advantage of the Neighbor Islands (looking at the pricing chart, it will be cheaper for Honolulu folks to travel to the Neighbor Islands than vice versa).

          Miulang
          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
            Nah, it's called "delayed hindsight" by the Neighbor Island legislators. Of course, they could plead ignorance by saying that the DOT and Superferry were in cahoots (wonder if this is one of the reasons why Rod Haraga got fired?) and didn't give them all the information they needed earlier, but they gotta put up at least a token fight because a vast majority of the residents of Maui don't think Superferry is a good idea if it means that they won't be able to get their basic necessities shipped to them and the canoe clubs can't practice in Kahului Harbor (canoeing is a big deal on Maui). Many people think it's an Oahu conspiracy to again take advantage of the Neighbor Islands (looking at the pricing chart, it will be cheaper for Honolulu folks to travel to the Neighbor Islands than vice versa).

            Miulang
            It's only cheaper if you are trying to get from one neighbor island to another neighbor island because SF will charge as two separate trips and Oahu will be the hub/transit point. That's not a conspiracy but rather the reality of demographics and supply/demand. Unless there is sufficient demand to go direct between two neighbor islands, routing will be via Oahu. Or unless if another neighbor island will gladly become the concrete jungle and hub for the state instead of Oahu.

            As for canoe clubs, that's great but honestly, is it really a great idea to mix pleasure/recreation/sport watercrafts with commercial/industrial watercrafts? Would the time and money wasted on this token fight be put to better use in exploring and developing a separate facility for the canoe clubs? Ultimately, it's a breakwater that is what the canoe clubs really need.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
              As for canoe clubs, that's great but honestly, is it really a great idea to mix pleasure/recreation/sport watercrafts with commercial/industrial watercrafts? Would the time and money wasted on this token fight be put to better use in exploring and developing a separate facility for the canoe clubs? Ultimately, it's a breakwater that is what the canoe clubs really need.
              There ARE no other harbors on Maui suitable for canoes, and that's the problem. Plus, the canoes have been using Kahului harbor for generations. Squatter's rights.

              Miulang
              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                There ARE no other harbors on Maui suitable for canoes, and that's the problem. Plus, the canoes have been using Kahului harbor for generations. Squatter's rights.

                Miulang
                Sorry but I don't buy that. Kahului harbor was created by building two break waters, one from the left, one from the right. If the area occupied by the canoe clubs were available to commercial shipping, the harbor capacity would double instantaneously. If you build another, smaller break water, starting from near the middle of the existing left breakwater and have it run parallel with Kahului Beach Road, that will create a nice separate facility for the canoe club. Maybe instead of fighting SF, perhaps you can get them to chip in on that new breakwater. It's hard to sympathesize when the main argument is that SF will disrupt the flow of "essential goods" to the people of Maui but it's ok for canoe clubs to squatter harbor space that could be used for the flow of "essential goods".

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                  Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                  Sorry but I don't buy that. Kahului harbor was created by building two break waters, one from the left, one from the right. If the area occupied by the canoe clubs were available to commercial shipping, the harbor capacity would double instantaneously. If you build another, smaller break water, starting from near the middle of the existing left breakwater and have it run parallel with Kahului Beach Road, that will create a nice separate facility for the canoe club. Maybe instead of fighting SF, perhaps you can get them to chip in on that new breakwater. It's hard to sympathesize when the main argument is that SF will disrupt the flow of "essential goods" to the people of Maui but it's ok for canoe clubs to squatter harbor space that could be used for the flow of "essential goods".
                  YB and the canoe clubs have co-existed peacefully since at least the 1960s. Even the cruise ships aren't much concern because they berth on the other side of the harbor. Where Superferry will dock is right next to the part of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice. You can't build another breakwater on the outer part of the harbor (towards Waihee). It's too shallow and the state would have to spend millions to dredge it. They might be able to pull something together on the north end (by Kanaha Beach Park) but I seriously doubt the State would want to spend that money just for the canoe clubs.

                  I still think it would be better for Superferry to dock at Ma'alaea because the impact to traffic would be greatly reduced. There already is a harbor there (that's where the snorkle boats to Molokini depart from) and it would have been better to put it there also because of its more central location (it would be about equidistant to Lahaina, Kihei and Central Maui), and it would leave the current occupants and configuration of the harbor intact..

                  Miulang

                  P.S. One other thing: if Superferry was allowed to dock on the side of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice, the 2 hotels that are right next to that area on the beach (Maui Palms and Maui Beach) would probably sue the state.
                  Last edited by Miulang; February 8, 2007, 03:01 PM.
                  "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                    As promised, the Neighbor Island legislators are pulling out whatever they think they can to stall Superferry. Now the Senate is pondering SB 1276 which is about whether SF travelling at the speed NOAA said was safe (35 knots) and would allow humpback whales to be safe.

                    Notsofast, says Maui Sen. Shan Tsutsui. According to experts at the Pacific Whale Foundation (also based on Maui), if SF is allowed to travel that fast, it would only have 2.9 seconds to stop once a whale is sighted in its path! Stopping on a dime will not be one of the safety features of Superferry. And if they have to slow down to 12 or 13 knots (as recommended) it would take FOREVER to get between islands.

                    English’s Transportation and International Affairs Committee, and the Energy and Environment Committee chaired by Oahu Sen. Ron Menor, recessed the joint meeting on Senate Bill 1276 to continue the sessions on Kauai and Maui on Saturday, the senators said.

                    Sen. Gary Hooser of Kauai said he believes there is strong support in the Senate for the bill that would bar the Superferry from operating until an environmental impact statement on the ferry operations is accepted.

                    “There is support, and it’s important that we hold these hearings on the Neighbor Islands for the committee to have an opportunity, and for members who live in Honolulu, to be able to talk face-to-face to the people who live in our districts,” he said.

                    The joint committee will convene at 10 a.m. on Saturday at the Kauai County Council Chambers and at 5 p.m. in the Baldwin High School multipurpose room.
                    On a somewhat related note, the Lanai City-->Lahaina Harbor ferry may have collided with a humpback yesterday. And that ferry is passenger only, no cars allowed.

                    Miulang
                    Last edited by Miulang; February 8, 2007, 03:45 PM.
                    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                      Notsofast, says Maui Sen. Shan Tsutsui. According to experts at the Pacific Whale Foundation (also based on Maui), if SF is allowed to travel that fast, it would only have 2.9 seconds to stop once a whale is sighted in its path! Stopping on a dime will not be one of the safety features of Superferry. And if they have to slow down to 12 or 13 knots (as recommended) it would take FOREVER to get between islands.
                      SuperFerry has done a massive amount of research (with the various whale foundations and researchers) to determine the most common areas and lanes the whales use, and SuperFerry has stated publicly (many many times) that they will re-route during the whale season to avoid those areas.
                      What do the whiners have to say about that?
                      Oh yeah. The whiners conveniently forget to mention that.
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                      That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                        Originally posted by LikaNui View Post
                        SuperFerry has done a massive amount of research (with the various whale foundations and researchers) to determine the most common areas and lanes the whales use, and SuperFerry has stated publicly (many many times) that they will re-route during the whale season to avoid those areas.
                        What do the whiners have to say about that?
                        Oh yeah. The whiners conveniently forget to mention that.
                        Well, that would pretty much preclude them plying the waters between the Big Island, Molokai, Lanai and Maui (see Sanctuary map), then, because that's where the humpbacks like to play. SF would have to go out of their way between early Dec. and Feb. when the whales are at their most plentiful in Hawai'i waters. (I don't think the whales travel on underwater freeways, so it's doubtful that scientists know where they roam unless they tag each and every whale to monitor radio signals).I'm sure they wouldn't prohibit SF from travelling in those waters during those times, only that they can't go 35 knots. At 13 knots per hour...lessee...how many more hours would that add to a trip from Honolulu to Maui? If the scheduled travel time according to the schedule is 4 hours (@35 knots), then a trip would take about 12 hours instead; that's long enough for a nice little snooze so you'd be bright eyed and bushy tailed when you got to Kahului.

                        Miulang
                        Last edited by Miulang; February 8, 2007, 06:27 PM.
                        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                          I dug a little deeper into the humpback whale controversy and came across some very interesting things. First of all, the "team of experts" that the Superferry says it consulted with, primarily the the Hawaiian Islands National Humpback Whale Sanctuary Advisory Council (part of the HINHWMNS) is chaired by none other than one Terry O'Halloran, a principal in the Hawai'i Superferry (could it be a "slight" conflict of interest?).

                          Second, at their last meeting on May 18, 2006, O'Halloran was absent, but Dr. Lee Tepley showed a documentary about the impact on humpback whales and other marine creatures of Superferry and the speeds at which it will be travelling.

                          In their original plans, Superferry promised to use sonar to detect whale proximity. According to Dr. Tepley, sonar cannot detect whales close to the surface, and if it could use sonar, it would be at levels which would probably hurt marine mammals (the same issue PacRim is facing with its naval testing of sonar). So the Superferry, when it arrives, will not be equipped with sonar.

                          One other argument that Superferry has used is that cruise ships can go as fast as 25 knots in between the islands. Dr. Tepley tracked the Pride of Aloha on one circuit and discovered it averaged a little more than 13 knots, which he considers a speed less likely to kill whales.

                          You can believe Superferry, or you can go with an open mind to Dr. Tepley's website and view the 2 videos that talk about what his concerns are. The second one was produced within the last month or so (around the time Austal launched the Superferry in Alabama). I believe this is the video that legislators will be seeing when they debate the value of requiring an EIS for Superferry over the coming week. It probably will open a few peoples' eyes. The first video (if you choose to watch the long version) is about 27 minutes and the second one is about 12 minutes long.

                          The picture I'm getting now from the "antis", is not that they don't want Superferry at all, but they don't think enough planning has been done to mitigate potential environmental issues. And as a compromise, if Superferry was restricted to travelling at an average speed of 13 knots (like the cruise ships) would people want to spend 12 hours on a boat that promised to get them to their destination in 4 hours?

                          Miulang
                          Last edited by Miulang; February 8, 2007, 08:53 PM.
                          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                            YB and the canoe clubs have co-existed peacefully since at least the 1960s. Even the cruise ships aren't much concern because they berth on the other side of the harbor. Where Superferry will dock is right next to the part of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice. You can't build another breakwater on the outer part of the harbor (towards Waihee). It's too shallow and the state would have to spend millions to dredge it. They might be able to pull something together on the north end (by Kanaha Beach Park) but I seriously doubt the State would want to spend that money just for the canoe clubs.

                            I still think it would be better for Superferry to dock at Ma'alaea because the impact to traffic would be greatly reduced. There already is a harbor there (that's where the snorkle boats to Molokini depart from) and it would have been better to put it there also because of its more central location (it would be about equidistant to Lahaina, Kihei and Central Maui), and it would leave the current occupants and configuration of the harbor intact..

                            Miulang

                            P.S. One other thing: if Superferry was allowed to dock on the side of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice, the 2 hotels that are right next to that area on the beach (Maui Palms and Maui Beach) would probably sue the state.
                            Peaceful coexistence is great but it's not the 60s anymore. Even though not on the scale of Oahu, Maui has grown in every way. I'm sure even if HSF isn't going to be there, there will be a point in time when more harbor space will be needed by commercial ships.

                            Why can't you build another breakwater on the outer side? Why would you need to dredge shallow waters for a canoe club? You only need to build a breakwater to block waves that would make it rough for canoes. The spot currently occupied by the canoe club can then be freed up for commercial ships. Kahului harbor already has dredging done. In fact, shallow waters would make building another breakwater just for the canoes even easier.

                            Ma'alaea would actually seem to be a bad choice. That side of the island is where most of the whales congregate. Why else would so many whale sighting tours hang out in that area?

                            As for hotels suing the state? Why? What unholy pact has the state entered with the hotels that the state can't build or change anything around the hotels?

                            Speed of ships. I don't believe HSF is gonna be cruising at 35 knots when entering coastal waters. It would primarily be out in the open between the islands. Besides, at a certain point, what else is left to do to avoid whale strikes? I guess simply not having HSF service, that's the message I'm getting from the antis.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                              Speed of ships. I don't believe HSF is gonna be cruising at 35 knots when entering coastal waters. It would primarily be out in the open between the islands. Besides, at a certain point, what else is left to do to avoid whale strikes? I guess simply not having HSF service, that's the message I'm getting from the antis.
                              If SF doesn't travel at average speeds of 35 knots+, they won't be able to meet their timetables as published. Please go to Dr. Tepeley's website and look at those videos, and then come back and tell me you're not convinced that high speeds are dangerous to whales, dolphins, honu and other protected species.

                              The antis are NOT saying no Superferry (at least not the ones who object on the grounds of whale strikes anyway). If SF would travel at 13 knots (the average speed of the Pride of Aloha when it travels between the islands), it would be far less risky. But how many people would want to spend 12 hours on that boat when the advertised transit time was 4 hours?

                              According to this Maui News story, there are more whales being spotted in the Marine Sanctuary. More whales means more possibilities of collisions. If you look at the videos, you will see what other Austal high speed ferries that are very similar to Superferry (the ones in the Canary Islands) have done to decimate the pods of whales swimming offshore there. They say that they know the numbers of whales killed or injured there has increased exponentially since those ferries went into service in 1999.

                              Cruising at 13 knots, according to Dr. Tepley, would allow the whales to be able to avoid collisions with the boat, or if they were struck, the blow would not be as severe as one coming from a 2-pontooned boat travelling at 35 knots. I don't think you have to be a scientific genius to see that that is the truth. If smaller boats today travelling at slower speeds can strike whales, then what would much larger boats travelling much faster do? And when you're on a boat as big and hefty as the Superferry, you probably wouldn't even know when you hit a whale. So if you don't feel it, then you can't know it's happening, and therefore it's OK, right?

                              As for a new breakwater at Kahului Harbor, to be on the Waihee side, you'd need TWO more walls (makai and on the Waihee side) because it's so rough.

                              Miulang
                              Last edited by Miulang; February 9, 2007, 02:58 PM.
                              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                                JoshiaTree is correct in most (maybe even all) things, including saying that SuperFerry will only run at high speeds in deep interisland waters and will slow down drastically in the shallower near-shore waters where the whales, dolphin and honu congregate.
                                SuperFerry also claims that their in-house policies are stricter than existing federal regulations; that they will indeed change their routes during whale season; and that during whale season they will double the number of crew on the bridge, with two crew doing nothing BUT watching for whales using several types of high-tech equipment, including motion-stabilizing and night-vision binoculars.
                                .
                                .

                                That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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