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  • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Originally posted by Miulang View Post
    I think the reason why nobody raised any issues about the YB ro-ros coming in is because it's an enhancement of a current service that is being provided, and for the people and businesses of Maui, it's a critical enhancement, not a new optional service, which is something HSF keeps touting. I'm not saying that that's right thinking, but all the ro-ro is doing is taking the place of the 2 barges that now occupy that side of Pier 2. It wouldn't add any more trips by YB to Kahului. YB could still do 2 barges every week or whatever their schedule is, but those barges would be able to carry more goods per trip.

    If you read the historical information about what goes on at Kahului Harbor, you will understand that all the distribution sites ARE in Honolulu right now. There are no direct shipments from the Mainland to Maui...yet, because even though the population of Maui has grown faster than most of the other islands, there is still a perception that the population couldn't support direct shipments from the Mainland. All goods are shipped JIT from Honolulu so the businesses on Maui don't have to pay for storage. Warehousing space is also impossible to find in the immediate area because it has all been developed, except for Kanaha Pond, which can never be developed because it's the habitat for some endangered species of Hawaiian stilts.
    Good explanation but there is a flaw, how is a RoRo considered a vital enhancement? From that article I read in the Advertiser, it appears that barge only carries vehicles, nothing else. How is that vital to Maui's fuel and food lifeline? I honestly think there is a lot of special interest hidden in the anti-HF camp.

    And thanks for clarifying that Maui uses a JIT system of shipping fuel and goods. If anything, that only reaffirms my belief that HF will provide an even quicker JIT system because the trucks can now be loaded at the distribution center in the early morning hours on Oahu, hop on the HF, and basically arrive at store location on Maui by mid-day. That's a lot quicker than repacking goods into a container and then shipped via YB barge. Or for some reason, if the shipment is so vital, Aloha Cargo.

    I still say that Kahului Harbor just simply needs to grow into the canoe paddling area. It's inevitable because of population growth.

    Comment


    • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
      Those 1,000 cars on the YB barges will mostly be new cars for sale or cars destined for the car rental agencies. New cars are replacement vehicles for older cars, in most cases, so there would be minimal increase in additional traffic from those because they will sit on lots for awhile before being sold, not driven on highways
      On what do you base that assumption? Contrary to your hypothesis, you'll find that the huge increase in population means that more and more new and used cars are required. You don't lose an old car for each new car sold. Simply not true.
      .
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      That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

      Comment


      • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

        Originally posted by Miulang View Post
        The comment period for input ends next month, and the draft will be published in June or July
        No, the Belt Collins site says that the proposed publication date is June or July, not that it "will be". Big big difference, and an easy escape route for BC with the typical delays that happen on small projects, much less something as big as this.
        And of what value is the draft? As I recall, the draft then goes through numerous public hearings, gets revised, goes through more hearings... I presume the process will take many years before a final, approved EIS is issued.
        As almost everyone has said, I'm all for the EIS... as long as it's applied equally and doesn't maliciously single out the SuperFerry.
        .
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        That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

        Comment


        • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

          Originally posted by Miulang View Post
          I think the reason why nobody raised any issues about the YB ro-ros coming in is because it's an enhancement of a current service that is being provided, and for the people and businesses of Maui, it's a critical enhancement
          Calling it an enhancement is nothing more than fluffy public relations spin. An enlargement, yes. Expansion, yes. Enhancement, no.
          And I completely and utterly fail to see how bringing in thousands more vehicles can be called "critical". What nonsense. Medical supplies and food would be "critical", but cars? Please.
          .
          .

          That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

          Comment


          • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

            Originally posted by LikaNui View Post
            Calling it an enhancement is nothing more than fluffy public relations spin. An enlargement, yes. Expansion, yes. Enhancement, no.
            And I completely and utterly fail to see how bringing in thousands more vehicles can be called "critical". What nonsense. Medical supplies and food would be "critical", but cars? Please.
            If you look at YB's current tariff request (filed in Dec.), it states that YB wants to increase fees for LCL loads (24%), refrigerated goods (something like 5%), as well as vehicle transport (5%), although the tariff request states that non-vehicular ro-ro use and standard container rates are not affected.

            The NCL cruise ships can hold anywhere from 2,000-2,400 passengers. Even if only 10% of the passengers rent cars for their 2-day port of call in Kahului, that means an additional 200 cars for each 2-day port of call, not including the cars rented by visitors who arrive by plane. Quite frequently these days, there aren't any rentals available for last minute customers. YB probably put the closed cabin ro-ro ship in operation first, because they can make more money hauling cars and Strykers than they can hauling other goods and they need to recoup their investment. The demand for more rental cars is already there, even without HSF.

            This Star Bulletin story says that the number of YB sailings increased THIRTY SIX percent between 2005 and 2000, which is a testament to the rapid growth and demand for supplies for the residents and businesses on Maui.
            Besides the Kaholo, YB plans to put in operation another brand new flat top barge sometime this year and that one will be used to transport goods.

            According to this YB press release, a $168 million investment announced last year is for 8 new barges and tugs plus upgrades to their facilities in the commercial harbors on all the Neighbor Islands over the next 10 years. The press release doesn't say how many of the new vessels will be replacements for the 10 older barges and 8 tugs that belong to YB and its subsidiary and how many will be a net gain, but as with any going concern, the business has to become more efficient in order to survive. And in the case of YB, the lack of current space at Kahului Harbor is not helping matters. They really want to get out of the LCL business, but even raising rates by the proposed 24% in the tariff request will only be break even for YB.

            If there was some enterprising business that would be willing to take over the LCL business, then maybe the small businesses on Maui wouldn't get shafted, but without crucial warehouse space in the immediate harbor area for dispersing LCL shipments plus the additional cost of transportation to get to the warehouse, it would be too costly for another aggregator company to take over that business without charging more than what YB is charging now. The only large piece of undeveloped land in the immediate area is Kanaha Bird Sanctuary, and that can never be developed because it's the habitat of some endangered Hawaiian stilts (and that's a federal thing).

            So when YB stops accepting LCL loads in a couple of years, as they have the option to do per an agreement with the State, what will small businesses on Maui do to get their shipments? It's not very cost effective for trucking companies to have rigs and drivers in Honolulu accompany the LCL loads on HSF because of the layover time required for the drivers and the rigs due to the sailing schedules of HSF, and HSF refuses to allow unaccompanied cargo loads. One likely outcome unless more facilities are built is that the people and businesses on Maui will experience delays in getting supplies because the harbor as it is configured can't handle additional barges, or they will resort to using air freight, which is very costly, and that cost will get passed on to their customers. Those larger barges would have more problems turning in that small area between Piers 1 and 2 than the 2 smaller barges it replaces, but it is more efficient for YB to have the larger barges so they can cram more goods into one shipment.

            The ro-ro car barge plus the newer barges that YB will be adding to their fleet will probably all be larger than what is currently available, because YB can't (or won't) schedule any more trips to Maui than they are doing now. And I'm pretty sure very few of the barges actually are dedicated to making single-island runs. So if there are 500 cars being transported on that ro-ro, more than likely some of the cars will also end up on the Big Island, according to what I've read, and all those Strykers that might be on the Kaholo would be headed for Kona, not Kahului.

            The only way the draft EIS could delay things at this point is if someone decides to throw a monkeywrench into the public comment phase of the initial fact gathering which ends, I believe, on April 9. But the State Senate's bill says that the EIS is moving forward and there will be no attempt made to keep HSF from commencing service in July as planned. In fact, the Senate bill took out all mention of HSF from its verbiage, so in fact, the EIS will be about the need to look at all possible outcomes for future growth in Kahului Harbor.

            When the draft EIS is published, yes, there will be public hearings again on Maui and possible changes, but by that time, HSF should have started operating. It'll be very interesting to see how the EIS synchs up with the concerns that have already been expressed by the public about the increased usage in the harbor and whether the proposals will look anything like the ones submitted for the Year 2025. Changes have to be made in Kahului Harbor, I think everyone agrees on that point. The battle will be over which of the proposals finally gets accepted and what the cost to the State and the individual commercial users of the harbor will be.

            One of the root causes of all this pilikia is because the PUC governs the business conducted in and between the commercial harbors in Hawai'i but the DOT governs the facilities. And in the case of Kahului Harbor, the PUC recommended that an EIS be done (specifically for HSF) and the DOT said HSF didn't need an EIS. But I see NOTHING anywhere about the DOT saying that a general EIS for Kahului Harbor wasn't needed, but it does admit that Maui's growth and demand for critical goods and fuel outstripped the projections of the 2025 General Plan, and that's what the Dept. of Harbors website is talking about.


            Waaaay back in 1995, the US Army Corps of Engineers did do a survey to investigate whether or not it would be feasible to build another commercial harbor for Maui, to help ease the pressure on Kahului Harbor. There were some recommendations made, but no actions were taken at that time, although there was agreement at the time that if the 2025 harbor plans were rendered inadequate either because of unanticipated growth in the demand for services or because of the necessity to provide an alternate landing for critical goods if Kahului Harbor was ever rendered inoperable due to physical disruptions (tsunami or earthquake) that the issue of revising the 2025 harbor plan would occur.

            Now fast forward to this year and the January 10, 2007 meeting of the Maui Harbor Users' Group. The issue of adequate space for all the users of Kahului Harbor has gotten so critical that maybe they will resurrect the idea of creating a second commercial harbor, possibly in the Oluwalu area, because if Maui's demand for shipping services continues to grow at a rate of 8% annually, there absolutely will be no way that the harbor will be able to continue to handle the traffic beyond 2030 in its current configuration. Based on the transcript of that meeting, I would say that representatives of all the users (including HSF) are really trying their best to figure out a way to allow everybody (including the canoe clubs) to be accommodated. The group that really hasn't been represented in any discussions are the surfers and small boat fishermen who use the West pier boat launch or the people who fish in that harbor. In the transcript, they also discuss the building of a dry dock facility in the area of the West Boat Launch, and there is a general concern about vehicle parking (specifcally rental cars and overnight parking for HSF).

            Again, what's most important to the people and businesses of Maui is getting the things they need to survive and thrive, anything else is window dressing.

            Miulang
            Last edited by Miulang; March 11, 2007, 11:39 PM.
            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

            Comment


            • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

              Maui needing more goods and services and new cars sounds like a problem with overgrowth on a sickeningly large scale.

              And what does this have to do with the ferry? Most riding the ferry are probably going to be people from in-state.

              It seems to me that the ferry really isn't the problem.

              I think you're barking up the wrong tree here, Miulang. Growth on Maui is out of control. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it sure isn't the ferry's fault. And like I and and others in this thread have written, the ferry won't contribute to traffic (cars are brought over, not rented). The harbor won't be filled with people waiting to pick up passengers (I'd venture to say that most who use it will be bringing vehicles -- carless passengers would be better suited to fly Go!, it's cheaper). The pests won't be a problem (Young Brothers can now pack in 500 pest-infested cars per boatload).

              It's also not the ferry's fault that Kahului Harbor is a confusing hell-hole. The place never was particularly pedestrian friendly (it's a working harbor, after all). Then the cruise ships started coming in, and nothing was ever really done to improve the place. And that was since the '80s. Now that some progress is happening, and growth is off the hook on the island, panic sets in. Again, it's not the ferry's fault. Like I wrote before, they did everything they were legally required to. The ball is rolling. Live with it. Why weren't people wetting themselves when the cruise ships started coming in? And like Lika wrote, why aren't you and others weeping about this new car barge? Personally I don't really care. The cars are coming one way or another. But your hypocritical diatribes are becoming a bit much to handle.

              Sorry, but as one who was born and reared on Maui, it bothers me that you seem so bent on proving how pro-Maui you are, yet you are so vocal against something that can really benefit the people of Maui and their relatives.

              Comment


              • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                Originally posted by dick View Post
                Sorry, but as one who was born and reared on Maui, it bothers me that you seem so bent on proving how pro-Maui you are, yet you are so vocal against something that can really benefit the people of Maui and their relatives.
                Let's not forget she is so pro-Maui while living 2,000+ miles away from the island and the state and chirps in from the cold Northwest. The old mother hen thing about knowing what is good for us in Hawaii while living thousands of miles away. That is true support.

                Are the anti-Superferry folk the same people who opposed the expansion of the runway at Kahului Airport? Funny thing is out of the fear that such expansion would bring (like more tourists, more $$$$ spent on Maui, etc.) is that the airlines adjusted, brought in smaller and more planes and made OGG the second busiest airport in Hawaii without any runway expansion.

                OK, sorry I am drifting.... but let's hope the Superferry will not be set adrift by the vocal minority. Save the Superferry!
                I'm still here. Are you?

                Comment


                • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                  Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                  So when YB stops accepting LCL loads in a couple of years, as they have the option to do per an agreement with the State, what will small businesses on Maui do to get their shipments? It's not very cost effective for trucking companies to have rigs and drivers in Honolulu accompany the LCL loads on HSF because of the layover time required for the drivers and the rigs due to the sailing schedules of HSF, and HSF refuses to allow unaccompanied cargo loads. One likely outcome unless more facilities are built is that the people and businesses on Maui will experience delays in getting supplies because the harbor as it is configured can't handle additional barges, or they will resort to using air freight, which is very costly, and that cost will get passed on to their customers. Those larger barges would have more problems turning in that small area between Piers 1 and 2 than the 2 smaller barges it replaces, but it is more efficient for YB to have the larger barges so they can cram more goods into one shipment.
                  YB is definitely fluffing things up in regards to the LCL situation. Cost of LCL was heading up regardless of SF's arrival or not. The lack of space at Kahului Harbor already existed without SF. Again, I point to the simple notion that the other half of that harbor used by canoes simply need to be converted. It just makes no logical sense to mix small time pleasure craft with commercial behemoths.

                  Since YB is essentially the sole interisland shipper, they have a lot of influence if they wanted to keep LCL. You mentioned lack of space. There is a real simple solution. YB just simply needs to acquire a small piece of land away from the harbor and simply have it as the LCL yard. All the consolidation is done there and when the containers are ready, simply haul it down to the harbor and load them onto the barge and vice-versa. Will that increase cost? Sure it will, but that will be an efficient process because you remove the consolidation process away from the docks, making it safer too.

                  SF did not decide to deny trucks without accompanying drivers, the PUC did based on the tariffs set. Since YB is leaving the LCL business regardless, having the SF will actually be a benefit to the small business of Maui. These businesses can lobby with the PUC on revising the tariff rule or maybe if business picks up, SF can schedule more frequent service, thereby eliminating the conundrum of having to leave truck and driver overnight.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                    I can't wait to take my MAMA on the Superferry to visit the other islands.

                    Auntie Lynn
                    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                      Sheesh. All you guys! It's pretty obvious to me that you guys all are just reading what you want to read in my comments and not really understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying I'm anti-HSF, ferchrissakes! All I want is that freaking EIS for Kahului Harbor!!! And a general EIS means that all commercial customers will have to be evaluated. I've patiently tried to give you links to all the things I could find that are public documents about the situation. The only person who I consider at least willing to look at both sides thus far is Joshuatree (thank you Joshua). The rest of you don't really care what happens to the people of Maui. Did you even go to the link from the Jan. 10 MHUG meeting? Did you read how all the interested parties (including HSF) are now exploring all the options? Probably not, or you wouldn't be saying what you're saying now.

                      All public officials---from the Maui County Mayor and Council to the DOT and Gov. Lingle---all admit that there's a serious crisis in Kahului Harbor and that the Master Plan for 2025 was outdated 10 years ago. It's not just because of HSF, or YB or NCL. It's a combination of a lot of different factors, exacerbated by the huge influx of new residents to the County. The so-called NIMBYs--the ones Tim likes to disparage---are the ones who want to slow down the rampant overdevelopment of Maui. Dick, you, of all people, since you have ohana who still live there, and since you visit them often, should KNOW how critical the situation is.

                      Given a choice between supporting the needs of the current residents of Maui v. tourists from NCL and HSF, tell me, if you were a resident of Maui, wouldn't you want to selfishly consider your own needs first? Don't tell me you'd be magnanimous and willingly allow your food, medicine and gasoline to cost more or be delayed for the sake of having more tourists visit.

                      I've tried to be patient when getting slammed by Lika et al, but now I'm sick and tired of it. This is one of the reasons why there is tension between the Neighbor Islands and Honolulu...Honolulu thinks its needs are greatest because it is currently the population center and the business hub. Will it always be that way? I don't know. But I DO know that the people of the Neighbor Islands are finally finding their voice. And I really have nothing to do with that, but I am glad of it. Maybe now the State can come together and start to deal with issues in a cohesive way instead of having the counties squabbling among themselves and the State government.

                      ALL OF YOU WHO ARE RESIDENTS OF HAWAII CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. But you don't make a difference by only criticizing and whining. At some point, you also have to be willing to contribute ideas and let others explore those ideas along with you. To only criticize and not to propose alternatives is a lame ass way of making a difference. To only state opinions and not have facts to back them up is not a good way to win a debate.

                      I'm in the middle of a family crisis right now that will have me back on Maui tomorrow morning. So for the next two weeks, gloat away, because I have no time or patience for whiners.

                      Miulang
                      "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                        Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                        I'm in the middle of a family crisis right now that will have me back on Maui tomorrow morning.
                        First and foremost, I'm sure everyone agrees with me in wishing you good luck with the crisis. You will be in our thoughts and prayers.

                        It's pretty obvious to me that you guys all are just reading what you want to read in my comments and not really understanding what I'm trying to say.
                        Have you considered that the reverse may be true?

                        I'm not saying I'm anti-HSF, ferchrissakes!
                        This is Chapter 4 of the threads on this topic, and I feel you've made it more-than-abundantly clear that you are dead-set against the SuperFerry.

                        All I want is that freaking EIS for Kahului Harbor!!!
                        Perhaps you should start a separate thread for that, then? Just a thought.

                        The only person who I consider at least willing to look at both sides thus far is Joshuatree (thank you Joshua). The rest of you don't really care what happens to the people of Maui.
                        I've said all along that I have certain thoughts and concerns on the SuperFerry and that all I've asked for is fairness in this debate and less of the maybe's and perhaps's.
                        As for your second sentence, you're totally wrong in saying we don't care about the people of Maui. And your sentence is another one that can be reversed -- do you care what happens to the people of O`ahu or Kaua`i or the Big Island?

                        I've tried to be patient when getting slammed by Lika et al, but now I'm sick and tired of it. This is one of the reasons why there is tension between the Neighbor Islands and Honolulu.
                        Whoa! I didn't know I was that powerful. (C'mon, a little levity is needed here.)

                        ALL OF YOU WHO ARE RESIDENTS OF HAWAII CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
                        You're right. And most of us do seem to want the SuperFerry.
                        You see, Miulang, you're in Seattle and all you get (or almost all) is what you find online. Until you actually live here full-time and speak to individuals on a daily basis, you can't really know what the population here is thinking or wanting.

                        Again, please know that we wish you good luck with your family crisis...

                        .
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                        That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                          One quick thing I wanted to add to my last paragraph (above):
                          It can be flawed -- and sometimes dangerous -- to rely too much on the internet. On any given issue, one can find plenty of internet 'sources' to respond to one side or the other of any issue. Selective sourcing is a game that too many people play, depending on what their personal agenda is.
                          The truth is often found by stepping away from the keyboard.
                          .
                          .

                          That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                            A very interesting article and poll at this link in today's Star-Bulletin, including these excerpts:

                            Headline:
                            July 1 start for Superferry wanted by most, poll says

                            "The controversial Hawaii Superferry is trying to stave off critics with a new independent poll showing that three out of four residents want the interisland carrier to start on July 1.
                            "With just over three months before its planned start of service, Superferry officials released yesterday the results of a new independent poll indicating that four out of five residents favor the interisland travel alternative.
                            (...)
                            "Highlights of the survey include:

                            » Nearly 70 percent of residents polled said that a delay of three years -- which Superferry officials say would be needed for the environmental study -- is not acceptable.

                            » About 84 percent of residents said they will likely consider using the Superferry for their next visit to a neighbor island.

                            » Roughly 75 percent of residents do not want a new law passed if it results in the Superferry canceling service."

                            Of course, the article includes the usual anti-SuperFerry whiners chiming in.
                            .
                            .

                            That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                              I just want July to come around and be over with. When that boat starts service, it's gonna show just how overblown the issues claimed by critics are.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

                                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                                I just want July to come around and be over with. When that boat starts service, it's gonna show just how overblown the issues claimed by critics are.

                                Well in other words it will be put up or shut up time. I have feeling some of the problems mentioned by opponents will become reality. But only time will tell.
                                Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                                The Kona Blog

                                Comment

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