Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

This is not a rejection of tourism or tourists, nor is it solely an environmental issue as many have made it out to be. Talk to most people on those islands and you begin to discover that this is mainly an issue of small communities facing a major change that will bring drugs, theft and gridlock while they are left with little or no means to deal with it.

OK, assuming for a moment that I accept that as truth, do you know why that's not argued? Because that's not a legal basis to block HSF. So what we have here is people subverting the environmental process to further their political agenda of subverting the Constitution which gives us the right of free travel.

Now, as for your arguments, crime is not unknown in those communities. And somehow the other 49 states get along when the line between their counties are nothing more then a sign on the road. The world is getting smaller. Deal with it instead of fighting it.

Tyranny by the majority

THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE! Oh, wait.... isn't that what the HSF protesters chanted?

Stop following me through threads.

Snort! That got a laugh out of me.

I posted a caricature of low-brow anti superfery sentiments. Now you and lika are apparently determined to mischaracterize it as some sort of assault.

If that was an attempt at humor, it failed miserably!

And I believe that I distinctly ASKED if Lika-troll was following me. Did you NOT read that post?

I read it. In fact I quoted it. It's not a question, it's a statement.

[woodman]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

nenermind,

too many trolls waste this thread.

There's obviously no discussion anymore.

It makes me wonder why mods and admin allow these people to post and ruin threads.

Pointless!

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

No, it's not like any other options. What other way can you go interisland, leave with a gun and arrive with a gun? Try carry a gun and ammunition onto a airplane or in luggage and say it is similar to security boarding Superferry? What other way can you carry large amounts of large stolen or illicit items with as little concern over security and consequences?? Legal jurisdictions at airports are different than at ports. What other way you move across the channels' surface at close to 50mph? What other way can you mow down turtles, monk seals and whales and not even know it? What other way can you arrive at another island, surfboard, spear-fishing gear, with a few dollars no credit card, and or little else but the shelter of a vehicle?

At present neighbor islanders are being forced to accomodate Superferry without an environmental assessment. Of course no one (except a prisoner or a soldier) is forced to board Superferry! No one is forced to use cocaine either, but that does't mean it's necessarily good for the society in which such use promoted.

Mr. CF, you bring up valid points of concern but your posts continue to be filled predominantly with fear mongering rather than a rational comparison.

1) Check out the TSA's page of what you CAN and CANNOT bring. If you examine the list, guns, ammo, spear guns, etc, all can be brought as long as they are CHECKED in. Heck I can even check in nunchakas and throwing stars.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...ted-items.shtm


2) The ferry does not do close to 50MPH. The ship will operate at 90% max at 35 knots which translates to ~40MPH. Please don't exaggerate, this is what undermines your creditability in this thread and why you perceive heavy opposition to you. You claim to be simply stating facts but you distort them.

As for mowing down sea life, why aren't you raising stink about submarines or jet skis or fishing trawlers? They operate in Hawaiian waters and all have the same potential of mowing down sea life. It's not your protest that I reject, it's your lack of consistency. Singling out the ferry doesn't make your arguments right unless you choose to apply them to all watercrafts out there.


3) No one is forcing the ferry on neighbor islands. The law permitted it. Maybe the law is flawed and needs revision. Maybe the law is unpopular. But it's all legal. That is an established fact. So it's not forcing. Otherwise, do you consider someone forcing you to wear seat belts in a car?

[cynsaligia]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

nenermind,

too many trolls waste this thread.

There's obviously no discussion anymore.

It makes me wonder why mods and admin allow these people to post and ruin threads.

Pointless!

*toting an "LET ME EAT CAKE & RIDE THE SUPERFERRY TOO!" sign, her hair, now purple, standing straight up*



awww, poor woodman.

i'd offer you a bit of pont l'eveque*, but maybe you should get all that pie off your face first.





what??!!! i'm funny!


*a very good cheese to go with his very bad whine

[admin]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

If you're convinced someone is a troll, don't engage them. This includes responding to them, ridiculing them, or chasing them around labeling them. You don't get a pass for personal attacks if you wrap them in a "board cop" jacket. "Don't feed the trolls" means ignoring them. If they are indeed trolls, they'll lose interest in the topic and conversation soon enough.

If you want to continue to debate the topic, continue to debate the topic, but leave the snark, sniping, and personal judgements out of it. Plenty of topics inspire strong feelings. You do everyone a favor by directing them toward the issue rather than the people with whom you disagree.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

What percentage of Maui County voters live on Molokai? (That's how I can say that)

Yes, they've been very successful with their political agenda, but will it last when push comes to shove?



Can you see how anyone who takes a welfare check is NOT economically self-sufficient, no matter how pretty a picture you try to paint?

Now, this is a old link, (feel free to find something more up to date) but it states that "nearly half of Molokai residents receive government assistance, including food stamps." Now, can you see why I believe that Molokai is not an economically self-sufficient community?

Now add insult to injury with a community that fiercely fights for "status quo" and blocks any kind of development that would bring jobs and quite frankly, I see that as disrespectful to the taxpayer that makes welfare possible.



And just keep forking over those tax dollars? Sorry. No.




And have a major riot if I try to build so much as a tree house? I pity the fool.
!

The total population of Moloka'i (2000 census) was a little less than 7,000 people. In the 2006 elections, the turnout on Moloka'i was 39%, which is very similar to the overall State voting percentage.

Read any of the 3 local papers (yes, they have THREE papers) and you will observe that they are indeed very vocal in expressing their desires. Their community meetings are always well attended. Some of the major issues as reported in their local papers: La'au Pt., the Moloka'i Irrigation System, and hunters being imported to help control wildlife. When you have 300 people show up for a community meeting on that island, as they have gathered over La'au Pt., that's a significant crowd. Could Oahu, with its 1 million population, be able to even get the same 300 people to a community meeting? I doubt it. And to match Moloka'i's numbers, Oahu would have to have community meetings with at least 10x more people to equal that.

It's hard to find individual island stats on poverty level of the residents, but this news story from 2006 notes that the entire state of Hawai'i has the 7th lowest level of poverty in the country.

The unemployment rate on Moloka'i as of Aug. 2007, was 5.9%, about double the State average, but not really that bad, when you consider that Moloka'i has no big industries (except for Moloka'i Ranch). Most of the industry on that island is of the cottage type, such as the taro farm, the macadamia nut farm, the coffee company, the gourmet salt company, the bakery that makes its famous Moloka'i bread. The salt company is actually very interesting, because the owner (originally from the Mainland) decided to help some of the residents make some money from salt farming. She knew that the ancient Hawaiians used to farm salt, and she knew that many were land rich but money-poor, so she decided to teach some Hawaiians how to farm salt again. The company she started, called Hawaii Kai, has helped some residents make a pretty good living.

The malihini who move to Moloka'i, as long as they don't get pushy and insist on having their own way, are welcomed with open arms by the community. McAfee ran into problems because he started developing his land without permits. He actually did help the community a little by giving the high school some money for band uniforms. But he was an absentee owner whose primary residence was elsewhere. When he tried to buy the ahupua'a where Iliilopae heiau is located, the locals were upset because they feared he would make that site kapu from the kanakas. He eventually decided not to buy the land.

Moloka'i is a very magical place. The moment you step off the plane, you feel the mana. Moloka'i is the piko of hula. It's no wonder the people there want to preserve as much of it as they can from development. It may indeed be the last "Hawaiian" island.

Miulang

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

Could Oahu, with its 1 million population, be able to even get the same 300 people to a community meeting? I doubt it.

That's an interesting GUESS, though unsupported by any facts.
But that's not the reason I replied. This comment about Moloka`i is:

It may indeed be the last "Hawaiian" island.

Just before that you were mentioning all the malihini on Moloka`i, so I'm curious how that (and other factors) justifies putting Moloka`i ahead of Ni`ihau as "the last "Hawaiian" island."

[woodman]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

... If you want to continue to debate the topic, continue to debate the topic, but leave the snark, sniping, and personal judgements out of it. Plenty of topics inspire strong feelings. You do everyone a favor by directing them toward the issue rather than the people with whom you disagree.

FINALLY!
At last, a glimmer of reason. ^


I find that a lot of people attempting to defend the Superferry make posts that fall into the definition of a "web-troll",

----------------------------------------------
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

"2 TROLL
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad homonym attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevance to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue."
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...so I would like to hear from a REAL Superferry supporter who is willing to engage in reasonable, civil dicsussion.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

It appears that the State and Coast Guard are continuing their plans for enforcing the security zone at Nawiliwili if they encounter the same kinds of situations that existed when the HSF tried to sail into the harbor in August.

The number of security vessels stockpiled at the busy Eastside port has fluctuated since Aug. 28, the day after protesters formed a human blockade in the water that prevented Hawaii Superferry’s 350-foot “Alakai” catamaran from docking on its second passenger-paying run from O‘ahu.

The augmented Coast Guard force remains ready to carry out a new federal rule that creates a security zone in the harbor designed to protect protesters while ensuring commerce has the right to transit, Titchen said.

The zone restricts access past a demarcation line in the harbor and on the jetty road where more than 500 protesters waved signs and chanted slogans during the Alakai’s inaugural trip Aug. 26.

“We’re not stockpiling boats and weapons,” Titchen said. “We’re trying to find ways to de-escalate the situation. Most people would recognize that we’re trying to find the best and most reasonable course of action.”

Some Garden Island residents disagree.

“It’s like we’re under martial law when we have that kind of military flotilla ready to go after women and children,” Prince- ville resident Anne Thurston said. “It’s a serious threat to democracy.”

Some community members say they find it “ironic” that state officials can disregard environmental laws as Gov. Linda Lingle flaunts the consequences to breaking the security zone rule.

A suit challenging the Coast Guard's security zone will be heard this Friday in Circuit Court in Honolulu.

“The regulation under which the Coast Guard adopted the rule states that its purpose is to prevent sabotage, subversion and terrorism,” Sinkin said in an e-mail. “The rule adopted is being used to suppress First Amendment protected speech, guarantee profits for a private business and aid and abet lawless activity. None of these purposes are permissible uses of the regulation.”

Sinkin said the “aiding and abetting lawless activity” is the governor’s Unified Command using the security zone to ensure the Superferry continues to operate despite the Supreme Court ruling that applies Hawai‘i Revised Statutes Chapter 343 to the $40 million in state harbor improvements to accommodate the Alakai.

“That section requires an EA when environmental impacts are possible and requires the EA to be completed and accepted as a ‘condition precedent’ to the initiation of the action in question,” he said.

“Here that means that the EA must be completed before the Superferry is allowed to use the harbor improvements, i.e. Superferry is required to cease operations. The governor is just making up a new law that would allow Superferry to operate while preparing the EA.”

Miulang

[zztype]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

I don't recall a court hearing that says the Maui decision applied to Nawiliwili.

The Coast Guard is enforcing the 100 yard rule for PUBLIC SAFETY, to protect over-zealous "free speakers" from endangering themselves and the ferry, its passengers and cargo.

The ferry has just as much right to dock at Nawiliwili as those folks have to speak freely. The right of one does not trump the right of the other.

The ferry docking at Nawiliwili could be considered someone else's expression of free speech, if you think about it. Would you impede someone else's lawful freedom while claiming it for yourself?

Where is the justice in that? Just because your free speech contradicts the other's free speech, that does not give you precedence over someone else's freedom.

(I wasn't referring specifically to "you" when I wrote "you." I probably should have said "one's" instead. -- Blaine)

[woodman]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

That's an interesting perspective, zz.

I believe both driving and docking a ferry are probably not be considered a "right", though.

If operating a car is a privilige (not a right), then I would assume a operating a ferry is at least as restricted. I believe that the ferry operators must be given license to operate in the state.; they have to go through a process prior to starting up service, some of which, I'm sure, includes public hearings, but i don't know the particulars.

Your point makes me think more on this issue than most other recent posts, though.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

That's an interesting perspective, zz.

I believe both driving and docking a ferry are probably not be considered a "right", though.

If operating a car is a privilige (not a right), then I would assume a operating a ferry is at least as restricted. I believe that the ferry operators must be given license to operate in the state.; they have to go through a process prior to starting up service, some of which, I'm sure, includes public hearings, but i don't know the particulars.

Your point makes me think more on this issue than most other recent posts, though.

Taking it a little further, if docking a ferry is a right (the right of a company to do business), then what about the rights of the businesses that already exist in an area whose livelihood will be adversely affected by promoting the right of that other company to do business?

Miulang

[zztype]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

But back on my point: The 100 yard zone is not to hamper free speech, but to protect public safety. Yes, it could be construed by those who wish to swim out in front of a large vessel as curtailing their free speech. But the government is not doing it to curtail the speech, but rather for the safety of all involved.

Just as a police officer would not stand by and let you light a match to immolate yourself, or would not let you jump off a building if they could somehow help prevent it... see what Iʻm getting at?

No matter how much you proclaimed that jumping off the building was your expression of free speech, the emergency personnel would do everything they could to stop you from doing so.

The government response to such a possibility would be to legislate fencing or otherwise securing the high places where someone might contemplate exercising such "free speech."

Those wishing to exercise that speech might feel impinged upon, but the government's responsibility to inhibit that form of speech would probably be upheld over the individual's right.

Blaine

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

Taking it a little further, if docking a ferry is a right (the right of a company to do business), then what about the rights of the businesses that already exist in an area whose livelihood will be adversely affected by promoting the right of that other company to do business?

Isn't that called a market economy? Otherwise, I fail to see how one can find up to four gas stations at a busy intersection, shouldn't the gov't have stepped in to limit the latter three from ever setting up shop at that intersection since it would adversely affect the livelihood of the first gas station?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

Isn't that called a market economy? Otherwise, I fail to see how one can find up to four gas stations at a busy intersection, shouldn't the gov't have stepped in to limit the latter three from ever setting up shop at that intersection since it would adversely affect the livelihood of the first gas station?

But the businesses being impacted by HSF at Kahului and Nawiliwili harbors are not in the same business as HSF and don't compete with each other anyway: on Maui, there's a bank, a fabric store, a trendy fashion store for young women and a restaurant. In Nawiliwili harbor, it's the Kauai Food Bank, Hesse Flooring and Island Liquidators.

An EA would study the effects of the HSF traffic on these businesses and suggest possible mitigations. Doing the EA while allowing the HSF to operate might just cause some of these local businesses to fail. Better to look at mitigation ahead of time.

Miulang